Tarkine mining

[stepbystep]

SBS,

I'm aware of the forestry debate down there and the degree to which this has polarised Tasmanian society. I remember the damage done to the Federal Labour party when the local branch of the CFMEU waved their flags for Howard. And I understand that the end of the pulp mill was largely due to the industry of a wealthy businessman from NSW, Geoff Cousins.

The influence of the mainland is the modern history of conservation in Tasmania. This is true in the case of the Franklin Dam case, where the foreign affairs power was misused by the Commonwealth, and in the case of the Gunns mill - where finance was used as the weapon. It is not local democracy that has determined these outcomes for Tasmania, but perhaps it should have been.

Nevertheless, the great thing about being a mainlander is getting to decide what is good for Tasmania, a great holiday destination, without the need to feel the consequence of social collapse. However, I have wondered at times whether Tasmanians would prefer that it was them, not mainlanders, who wore the pants.

On the subject of the export of bulk low end commodities, whether that be wood-chip, raw materials such as iron ore, or agricultural produce. Australia has traditionally succeeded despite competition from the developing world, as wages are only a small part of the equation. Attracting capital with low sovereign risk, a skilled workforce, infrastructure, mechanisation, etc, have been sufficient for Australia to compete in commodities, and Germany and Japan in manufacturing. The biggest problem for Australian commodity exports has been the rise of the dollar.

And the sig has been gone for some time now.

Well then, you and I are going to have to agree to disagree. Read my sig!

[Clusterpod]

Such a level of auditing would be great for getting on with the job of conservation but i can't see how it would help influence decisions in this case? Unfortunately, public support is everything to winning votes, people care about the threat to devils... it's the 'cuddly' animals that 'matter'.

Yes, it would. And unfortunately it seems that the public is led to believe that that level of auditing is in fact what is taking place.

So once again public support is being garnered through lies and misinformation. Yes, thats always been going on, and yes, the public will continue to fall for it in the face of all available evidence.

[maddog]

Well then, you and I are going to have to agree to disagree. Read my sig!

All in good fun SBS. But truth may be illusory:

People spend their entire lives either searching for, or running from, truth; back and forth, in and out, less or more. At the end of your life, or at least your conscious, sane life, what you have learned to be the unwavering truth will be a short list, and one of your most precious possessions. Your metric for Truth will have undergone several transformations by then, and permutations, and finally, combinations, that all essentially end up adding up to one, or none; truth, or illusion.

[Nuts]

Such a level of auditing would be great for getting on with the job of conservation but i can't see how it would help influence decisions in this case? Unfortunately, public support is everything to winning votes, people care about the threat to devils... it's the 'cuddly' animals that 'matter'.

Yes, it would. And unfortunately it seems that the public is led to believe that that level of auditing is in fact what is taking place.

So once again public support is being garnered through lies and misinformation. Yes, thats always been going on, and yes, the public will continue to fall for it in the face of all available evidence.

But there isn't much available independent evidence to assume 'lies and misinformation' Earlier on I tried to find some basic auditing done in support of the species in the area, in support of something that makes this area unique (in that sense). I would have thought that a proactive 'save the tarkine' campaign would have something available.. the opponents dominate many pages on google but the arguments seem largely emotional.

The tarkine has had support for many years- any independent auditing been done? It's just out of interest, I have no influence.. besides the odd annoying letter (or post ) but can someone point to it? What is the devil population on the tenement? (outside the tenement i don't see that road movement changes are a big factor... and the lease agreement contains the understanding of day travel) There is no getting around the fact that when the miners leave at best (perhaps at worst) there will be a hole..?

[stepbystep]

Some here nuts, really only applies to the APCA.
http://www.parks.tas.gov.au/file.aspx?id=19887

EDIT This is a 2010 report and the devil for example has moved from vulnerable to endangered and the Eastern and Spotted Tail Quoll should be on the endangered list as well, don't get me started

[Clusterpod]

Such a level of auditing would be great for getting on with the job of conservation but i can't see how it would help influence decisions in this case? Unfortunately, public support is everything to winning votes, people care about the threat to devils... it's the 'cuddly' animals that 'matter'.

Yes, it would. And unfortunately it seems that the public is led to believe that that level of auditing is in fact what is taking place.

So once again public support is being garnered through lies and misinformation. Yes, thats always been going on, and yes, the public will continue to fall for it in the face of all available evidence.

But there isn't much available independent evidence to assume 'lies and misinformation'

No assumptions are being made. Independent evidence is not required, its the lack of evidence that is the proof here. (I'm not sure what your smiley emoticon is about) You cannot fix something you do not know is broken.

Complete bio-surveys have not been done. Environmental protection legislation does not require complete bio-surveys. The misinformation is that they have been done, or are being done.

Rehabilitation of a minesite that has not had a complete bio-survey can not be completed. Its a lie to state that it is so, or will be so.

How do you rehabilitate something like the Kalgoorlie Superpit? Or uranium tailings, or coal residue? You can't. There are tens of thousands of non-rehabilitated mine-sites across Australia.

So what happens in the Tarkine when they have pulled out all the iron ore they want? The holes get filled in, top soil is smoothed across, flora that is indicated by their survey is replanted and they can leave. Hopefully things return to "normal". In a few decades. Maybe.

Meanwhile on the very short term, some money has found its way into the local economy, and it finds itself exactly where it started with no where to go but to open another mine under false pretenses.

For the record, I'm not against mining, I come from a mining family, I'm against the way it is being pushed on the people of Australia.

[Nuts]

Thanks sbs, It was probably a bit precious to expect a team ready to implement localised surveying. Perhaps a restructured, better funded, independent epa.

There is no doubt that the way minesite rehab has been conducted in the past still results in a modified landscape. Lied too? perhaps, as to whether that fact sways the voting public I have doubts. I would think 'looks similar' would be enough (even if they new what they were looking at).

Do you have access to Stree Minerals audit (bio-survey) Cluster?

I was looking at the strategy document for reducing impact on Devil populations, something independent would give a good comparison (otherwise we are back to heresay?) ( )

http://www.shreeminerals.com/downloads/ ... rategy.pdf

(ie: 1/2 devils displaced perhaps 1 pa killed on roads? is this significant?)

[Clusterpod]

Thanks sbs, It was probably a bit precious to expect a team ready to implement localised surveying. Perhaps a restructured, better funded, independent epa.

There is no doubt that the way minesite rehab has been conducted in the past still results in a modified landscape. Lied too? perhaps, as to whether that fact sways the voting public I have doubts. I would think 'looks similar' would be enough (even if they new what they were looking at).

Do you have access to Stree Minerals audit (bio-survey) Cluster?

I sighted their EIS (Environmental Impact Statement) back in early 2012. It had glaring omissions regarding fungi, flora and hydrology in the area from memory. I'm not sure if they have had to come up with a new one.

I do not have access to any other Shree Minerals materials at this time.

[Clusterpod]

I was looking at the strategy document for reducing impact on Devil populations, something independent would give a good comparison (otherwise we are back to heresay?) ( )

http://www.shreeminerals.com/downloads/ ... rategy.pdf

(ie: 1/2 devils displaced perhaps 1 pa killed on roads? is this significant?)

The Habitat Advocate suggested:

"Data relating to projections of Tasmanian devil roadkill from mine related traffic are flawed. The company has used a January-February traffic surveys as a current traffic baseline which skews the data due to the higher level of tourist, campers and shackowner during the traditional summer holiday season. DIER data indicates that there is a doubling of vehicles on these road sections between October and January. The company also asserted an assumed level of mine related traffic that is substantially lower than their own expert produced Traffic Impact Assessment. The roadkill assumptions were made on an additional 82 vehicles per day in year one, and 34 vehicles per day in years 2-10, while the figures the Traffic Impact Assessment specify 122 vehicles per day in year one, and 89 vehicles per day in ongoing years.“When you apply the expert Traffic Impact Assessment data and the DIER’s data for current road use, the increase in traffic is 329% in year one and 240% in years 2-10 which contradicts the company’s flawed projections of 89% and 34%”. “This increase of traffic will, on the company’s formulae, result in up to 32 devil deaths per year, not the 3 per year in presented in the EIS.”

So I don't know.

[Nuts]

You obviously have looked at into it further than I have (as a casual observer)

I probably shouldn't comment further (not only the above- I also know the author), maybe people here are interested in what other omissions you found? for those who are interested (and for what it's worth) here is the index to the final EIS draft:

http://shreeminerals.com/scripts/page.a ... 9&pageid=0

edit: yes, i'm not sure what to make of the figures (Devil population impact), i mean, as far as future impacts do you compare them/or add them.. to increased tourist traffic (which I would expect wouldn't be controlled or insignificant)... should the scope include all future activity etc.

I'm out.

[stepbystep]

Re. Devil numbers. Locals I have spoken to from Woolnorth to Temma all say numbers have dropped over the last 20 years, this is anecdotal, but seeing locals opinion is so important it’s worth noting. At least half of these same locals are keen for mining to go ahead btw, but then they have kids they want to stay close to home, and for them, their kids are far more important than the devil.

[Clusterpod]

I, too, am but a casual observer.

I am perhaps being a little too shrill.

[gayet]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-07-24/butler-flies-into-tarkine-electoral-battleground/4838746

latest developments.

[Hallu]

lol Butler makes it sound as if all unemployed workers in Tassie are waiting for those mines... Rubbish...

[sthughes]

The thing with Devils getting squashed is an issue irrespective of what the development is. I mean if tourism is the answer to all our woes who really believes tourists in rental cars won't kill devils, but mine workers will? So if this really is the issue then it comes down to banning any development at all that will result in extra cars on the road, which is basically all development.

[Hallu]

The issue has nothing to do with roadkill. It's got to do with habitat destruction, water pollution, noise, etc...

[sthughes]

The issue has nothing to do with roadkill. It's got to do with habitat destruction, water pollution, noise, etc...

The issue of devil deaths is ALMOST ALL to do with road kill! Habitat destruction will be minor in comparison (less than 2 Devils/Quolls displaced in the mine life) and the main reason for destroying any devil habitat is to avoid digging up endangered flowers nearby. Water pollution should be negligible, my only concern there is that the EPA has the balls to enforce all the permit conditions effectively, as these are what ensure the Nelson Bay River health.

Perhaps we should all read the documentation?
http://epa.tas.gov.au/epa/results?k=shree

[Hallu]

You have to consider not only the devils, but their prey as well. Bring in a mine, and even though the devils could stay, the prey could simply hop or fly away. Some argue that road kill actually helps the devils. You run over a possum or a pademelon, and they can feed on it at night. And spotting and avoiding a devil feeding on a carcass on the middle of the road at night is a lot easier than avoiding a fast jumping kangaroo if you're driving at around 60 km/h (which you're supposed to at night).

Another point is that they don't want to close the mine solely to keep the devils safe, they also want to do it so the area can be protected and then they can monitor the facial tumor disease efficiently. You can't do it on private land.

[doogs]

The thing with Devils getting squashed is an issue irrespective of what the development is. I mean if tourism is the answer to all our woes who really believes tourists in rental cars won't kill devils, but mine workers will? So if this really is the issue then it comes down to banning any development at all that will result in extra cars on the road, which is basically all development.

Tourist don't drive 4wds at 120km/h during darkness on rural roads like every miner who passes me at night when heading out for a walk!!!

[sthughes]

The speed limit on the road to this mine will be 50km/h. If if all miners do 120km/h I guess the economic benefits may be higher than we thought initially, and then the free bus the mine is providing will be heavily used! Unless the police are in on the pro-mine government conspiracy too of course?

[RichB]

The road kill wont be noticed, as the mining companies will send one of their employees around the local roads early every morning to pick up the road kill and put it "out of sight, out of mind"...before everyone else hits the roads...common sense aint it?

[doogs]

Unless the police are in on the pro-mine government conspiracy too of course?

oooh.. I do love a conspiracy theory, do tell

[stepbystep]

...the pro-mine government conspiracy...

You can't be serious? Green and Giddings have been publicly behind this thing for ages, I've put their soundbites in countless news stories so give me a break. Their use of the politics of fear and division have been overt in the extreme.
"Won't somebody please think of the children"

[Nuts]

Why? they are little and smell of milk or poo.. or milk and poo (cringe)

The road kill wont be noticed, as the mining companies will send one of their employees around the local roads early every morning to pick up the road kill and put it "out of sight, out of mind"...before everyone else hits the roads...common sense aint it?

"I am requiring that mine vehicles travel only during daylight hours and abide by appropriate speed limits within and to and from the mine site and that they provide bus transport to limit the amount of traffic on nearby roads' (Bourke)

I hope we can discuss.. these things without being put in a box. I agree with Hallu about loss of habitat, if a win can't be had then surely a compromise is in order? How will things look if it takes forestry-debate-like time frames?

[doogs]

"I am requiring that mine vehicles travel only during daylight hours and abide by appropriate speed limits within and to and from the mine site and that they provide bus transport to limit the amount of traffic on nearby roads' (Bourke)

To stick to a theme, that's a bit like telling children not to run in the corridor..

I hope we can discuss.. these things without being put in a box.

Coffin

I agree with Hallu about loss of habitat, if a win can't be had then surely a compromise is in order? How will things look if it takes forestry-debate-like time frames?

Loss of habitat, increased spread of disease leading to a decline in biodiversity are all possible outcomes from a road being put in place let alone a mine. You only have to look at the extent of weeds around the roadsides of the state to realise that they are tools for weeds to spread.
I haven't a problem with mining I am just not sure whether this proposal is necessary for the states economy. There is a push for as there is low unemployment in the North West of the state but as far as the other mines in th west of the state go they don't seem to be targetting employees from that area. I live in a small coutry town in the middle of the state and know half a dozen folks who travel over to the West Coast for work and they car pool with people from the East Coast. This isn't going to solve any socio economic problems in the NW of Tasmania as the mine will source the best employees statewide.

[Nuts]

Coffin?? Now I am scared!!
Well.. If you take a look at the Devil Strategy night driving doesn't appear to be specifically mentioned..? (edit: can I come out now?)

Anyhow;
I'd agree, the local employment is not likely to be comparatively substantial or relatively long lasting. That would be an exaggeration.

[frenchy_84]

Bob browns twitter says there is a story on the tarkine tonight on 730

[gayet]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-07-31/g ... ne/4855060

The mine has been approved again.
Didn't take long.

[Hallu]

"The company is still allowed two devil deaths per year and the minister has retained the condition that Shree pay $48,000 to the Save the Devil program for each devil killed after that."

I'm curious as to who will monitor those deaths... There can't be a permanent conservationist going everywhere to find devils' bodies, and you can't really count on the miners' honesty, especially when it means a 48,000 $ fine for their employer... As it was said before, it will be mostly temporary jobs, probably Indians, who couldn't care less about the devil's conservation. A good condition in the building of the mine would be about 10 employees paid by Shree but selected by the greens to monitor devils' habitat, rotating so there can be always 5 on site at any given time of the year, to check that the mining company isn't illegally spilling their waste in rivers (which they always do at one point or another), and to care for the environment surrounding the site.

[sthughes]

As it was said before, it will be mostly temporary jobs, probably Indians, who couldn't care less about the devil's conservation.

Where are you getting these facts from??