Tarkine mining

[baeurabasher]

-1

Think of the children.

-2

[Taurë-rana]

Been reading this thread with some despair, if the people who love being in the bush can't understand the importance of saving what wilderness we is left, what hope is there for our state at all? We are lucky enough to actually have some reasonably substantial tracts of relatively untouched wilderness in Tasmania, that's a luxury that is fast disappearing in the rest of the world. Why would we want to follow everyone else in the world and contribute to destroying the world's ecosystems and ability to sustain the amazing, diverse and beautiful life that is here?
Humans need wilderness, not just isolated patches in the middle of 'tamed' land, but large areas where they can go and prove themselves, know that there is hardly a soul around for miles, imagine that they might be the first people there.

And I would like to point out that I am one of the NW's many literate, intelligent, educated but underemployed people, almost to the point of despair at times, and I would welcome more employment here. Just not at the expense of the wild places that we have left.

-3

[photohiker]

I'd point out that 'green' ideas were around a long time before there was a 'greens' party, and they will still be around when the greens party is long gone.

There is no requirement to associate green ideas like conserving the natural estate with a political party. They didn't invent those ideas, they adopted them and adjusted them to their own political bent.

[geoskid]

They say a picture is as good as a thousand words. This photo by Rob Blakers is of the Husskisson River in the Tarkine wilderness.

Venture Minerals call this valley the "Province of Tin' this is what they want to get at and destroy for all time. Not just destroying ecosystems that took eons to build, but the entire fishery, not just the inland waterways but the coast will feel the impacts also, the knock on effects for so many people are incalculable.

This sounds pretty dramatic SBS. How do you know this?
Edit - I need to expand , because that question will be ignored by people that have it all worked out in their head. So the question is - How do you know this?

[corvus]

Been reading this thread with some despair, if the people who love being in the bush can't understand the importance of saving what wilderness we is left, what hope is there for our state at all? We are lucky enough to actually have some reasonably substantial tracts of relatively untouched wilderness in Tasmania, that's a luxury that is fast disappearing in the rest of the world. Why would we want to follow everyone else in the world and contribute to destroying the world's ecosystems and ability to sustain the amazing, diverse and beautiful life that is here?
Humans need wilderness, not just isolated patches in the middle of 'tamed' land, but large areas where they can go and prove themselves, know that there is hardly a soul around for miles, imagine that they might be the first people there.

And I would like to point out that I am one of the NW's many literate, intelligent, educated but underemployed people, almost to the point of despair at times, and I would welcome more employment here. Just not at the expense of the wild places that we have left.

-3

Taurë-rana ,
On most given days you could walk in the Don Reserve ,head up Mt Roland , do Black Bluff, take a trip into Lees Paddocks and for much of that time if solo you would not know that you were the first to be there other than the track !!!
And last time I looked we had huge tracts of wilderness in Tasmania that is well protected.
corvus

[taswegian]

This is a long post but it's a set of thoughts that are present every time I head off to work.
(Corvus - it's not about 'the now' but about 'the future'.)

I think I may be qualified to add a comment
Many years ago I flew over that area (Tarkine) with the then District Engineer N'west and a Mr Foster (another engineer) in a little plane and listened to Mr Fosters grand plan to see a road from north to south.
I remember the sea of green that seemed to stretch for ever, and the bumpy air that saw our other passenger left at Strahan!
Since then I have swum the Donaldson, tussled with the Horiziontal and basked in the wonder of that region. Miles and miles of button grass. Magic stuff.
I was skeptical back then the road was an excuse to provide free and ready access for logging those beautiful forests.

Any development seen in isolation is okay! Easy to justify and not intrusive. Then another is seen in isolation which too is okay.
The cycle repeats and is continued by 'expansion' of an existing and previously approved plan.
Suddenly the lesser becomes the greater and is overtaken by the 'previous lesser'.

I've worked and walked the King and the Henty Rivers.
Things recover or so it seems.
If anyone has been to Sarah Island and seen the photos of what it looked like in it's heyday and what it's like now then it becomes immediately obvious Nature consumes the mess made. Blackwoods (regrowth) almost a metre Ø would make any timber getter drool. And that was about 90 years of growth (in 1980's)

So yes we have the means and the wherefore to see rehabilitation. It can happen.

When Tasmania was first settled by Europeans the whole state was dark and inhospitable. They had no idea of what lay beyond but despite that they setout to establish areas for various use for the future inhabitants by way of reserves for all manner of things, including the night cart.
I can only imagine what those early settlers saw, coming from a land that had seen centuries of mankinds footprint and removal of 'all things natural' from the greater part of their homeland. I imagine they would realise that one day Tasmania would resemble their land of lanes and footways, towns and cities and Van Diemens Land would finally be tamed bearing little resemblance to its origins.

Fast forward to 2000 and not much has changed. Except we seem to have stopped having visionary thoughts for the future and our place in that. Its a mad race for survival and making the quick quid with little regard for others.

Many argue the amount of land 'locked up by the greenies' but how much of that land is actually habitable? If we live in Pakistan or Afghanistan we might consider the austere interiors of the west coast and central reserve home. But for modern well healed whitemen/woman life would be unbearably harsh.
This probably comes back to mining where this whole debate started.
Probably the most fitting use for such a harsh environment with little economic benefit.

Taurë-rana I sympathise with you but suggest the problem lies with the majority of those who hold little respect for our ecosystem (natural landscape) and even many on this forum that get out doors and tread the heights.
I would suggest the bottom line is most people simply don't care. Well not enough to want to make allowance or change.
I can only speak generally but my work has highlighted this. Just a few examples.
# Sisters Beach - beautiful waterfront blocks rich in natural attributes of flora, bird life etc - All cleared, and replaced with lawn and other exotics, resembling nothing of its origins other than the sigh of the sea on the beach below.
# A place near Devonport. Manferns gullies, stringy barks and all the usual understorey. A stamping ground for cattle rubbing and smashing there way through an amazing place and so close to civilisation.
# St Helens - new subdivision - coastal. Cleared of every vestige of scrub and yet whilst in its yet inhabited state has Kennedia and other wonders of nature regrown in the cracks in concrete waiting patiently for their final dose of Roundup.
# Port Sorell- Hawley- Shearwater - similar to above, just different species.
# Few farmers even bother to revegetate, or plant trees. Many just see trees a hazard to be eradicated.
Little (no?) value is placed on the natural wonders that abound and attracted others to this or that place originally.

I could go one with 40 years of accumulated stories of 'improvements' to our wonderful island.

So while this probably upsets many it is reality.

Personally I believe we have in our heads, between our ears, the ability to work out for the good and progress this state beyond our current state, even to the place where development as we have known it can be seen as old hat and unsavory. Where innovation takes pride of place.
We have the capacity to do things differently but not the will power to make it happen.
Perhaps we are afraid of what 'outside the box living' would mean to us and our lively-hood. If anyone has never been retrenched (I have) then that vulnerability to those feelings may well be meaningless.

So do we need mining? Maybe?
Are there alternatives? Yes! But only if we want them.
Many blame 'The Greens @#$%" for ALL our woes.
I'd suggest that's not the case, but there seems to be a propensity to need to blame others for all our woes.
The Greens had much to offer, but IMO, lost or perhaps never had that ability to articulate their desires and concerns to others in a way that demonstrated both an understanding of the issues close to their hearts, and of the 'other persons' concerns and a considered and thoughtful approach as to how to make this place a better place for all, not just themselves. That involved dialog and 2 sided debate with successful outcomes.

Frankly I don't hold much hope for our wild areas. Unless they are devoid of minerals, timber or some other yet to be discovered richness.
Living and interaction with a lot of Tasmanians has clearly impressed this upon me.

SBS - Few probably see the wild like you do and yet you return again and again from civilisation as we call it.
Your contrasts would be so diverse and come and go like the seasons.
I'd encourage you to keep the flow of beautiful images of those special places.

One day, someday people will look back and even wish they'd done things differently.
They say 'hindsight' is a great thing and we can't go back.
I'd counter that 'Visionary' is a greater thing as it HAS that ability to benefit the future now, unlike the other that could benefit if only we could turn the clock back but can't.

For those that have endured I say Au Revoir.
Richard

[corvus]

Richard that is a big "motherhood statement " from someone secure in their employment.
corvus

[geoskid]

Hi Taswegian, you write beautifully, I wish I could express myself as well.

[taswegian]

Corvus I don't and never intend to denigrate anyone who is out of a job or for anything..
It's not about that.
Actually its about encouraging others to make 'it happen' so others can have useful, meaningful and fulfilling jobs that endure, that make them buzz inside and appreciate life more.
Big ask? Maybe.
Maybe not.

Thanks Geoskid.

[geoskid]

Actually I think some people need a cause more than the cause needs them.
If we are talking 'big picture', opposition to mining in the 'Tarkine' is trivial and is parochial.
Any activist that is not first and foremost a student of human thinking, and instead focuses on the effects of human acts/behaviours is at least one step removed from understanding the root cause of any problem caused by humans, and will be largely ineffective in making changes.(IMO)

[baeurabasher]

Corvus I don't and never intend to denigrate anyone who is out of a job or for anything..
It's not about that.
Actually its about encouraging others to make 'it happen' so others can have useful, meaningful and fulfilling jobs that endure, that make them buzz inside and appreciate life more.
Big ask? Maybe.
Maybe not.

Thanks Geoskid.

This is a good back up post from a very well written and obviously educated post.

What good are jobs on a dead planet Corvus? I've walked alot of the West coast, and have to side with SBS here, the landscape in too many places is dead. Sure some plant life is growing back slowly, painfully, but will it ever reach the heights it once would have? Doubtful.
And I dont think the rivers out there will ever recover.

It is a difficult one, it's not just mining either. Tassal and like companies are destroying our oceans, but is much being done or said about that?? Nope!! Anyone who has dived under an old salmon pen site knows what I am talking about.

Also farming has destroyed many of our rivers and lands over the years, but this is also accepted without much fuss because we deem it necessary.

[frenchy_84]

I was having a look on google earth and noticed what appears to be regrowth forest (maybe mining exploration) along the huskinson valley which would be just on out of shot on one of the ridges shown in the photo SBS provided. Images below:

Attachments

[Taurë-rana]

Hi Taswegian, you write beautifully, I wish I could express myself as well.

Agreed.

corvus, I very much appreciate walking in the Don, up Black Bluff, up Mt Roland, but my point is that up Black Bluff you can see logging scars and plantations, up Mt Roland the views are lovely but over farmland, and in the Don you may escape views of civilisation briefly, but only for a few minutes at a time. I don't not value these areas, just believe that we need bigger tracts of uninterrupted wilderness to nurture the soul.

It's about a mindset too, do we see our wild areas as places to be exploited and destroyed just so we can fill our way out of control material wants? Or do we see ourselves as creatures who live in harmony with the rest of the world about us? Just because it's there do we have the right to destroy it with no thought? And that is part of the problem - if we focused more on doing things sustainably, if there was more accountability for environmental damage, if as much value was placed on the wilderness as what could be extracted from it, perhaps we could have both.

[north-north-west]

There will always be some damage associated with mining, but the perspective we need is the FULL environmental perspective- which under modern legislation includes social, economic and ecological factors. I have been a conservationist all my life, but firmly believe the anti-development lobby has gone too far by focussing on ecological issues to the exclusion of all else.

And the pro-development lobby focus on the short-term economic advantages to the exclusion of all else.
*sigh*
Why is it always so adversarial? So much of our society, from politics and the judicial system right through. It's all about 'fighting' and 'winning' and not about finding out what the best thing overall would be.
People just leave me in despair most of the time.

[corvus]

Corvus I don't and never intend to denigrate anyone who is out of a job or for anything..
It's not about that.
Actually its about encouraging others to make 'it happen' so others can have useful, meaningful and fulfilling jobs that endure, that make them buzz inside and appreciate life more.
Big ask? Maybe.
Maybe not.

Thanks Geoskid.

This is a good back up post from a very well written and obviously educated post.

What good are jobs on a dead planet Corvus? I've walked alot of the West coast, and have to side with SBS here, the landscape in too many places is dead. Sure some plant life is growing back slowly, painfully, but will it ever reach the heights it once would have? Doubtful.
And I dont think the rivers out there will ever recover.

It is a difficult one, it's not just mining either. Tassal and like companies are destroying our oceans, but is much being done or said about that?? Nope!! Anyone who has dived under an old salmon pen site knows what I am talking about.

Also farming has destroyed many of our rivers and lands over the years, but this is also accepted without much fuss because we deem it necessary.

baeurabasher
Am I reading your post correctly? No Mining,No Fish Farming,No Farming ?? with respect do you really think Tasmania would survive without these essentials ?? with regards to the West Coast have you noticed that the vegetation around Queenstown is re growing and the King River getting cleaner.
Just released Stats that Tasmania is in Negative growth are somewhat daunting and the possibility of more job losses across the board are concerning for the future of our young,Tasmania was in my opinion enriched by Mining , Farming and to some extent Forestry and until Bass Strait is recognized as a "National Highway " and funded as such I doubt that Tourism will be our savior.
corvus

[corvus]

Corvus I don't and never intend to denigrate anyone who is out of a job or for anything..
It's not about that.
Actually its about encouraging others to make 'it happen' so others can have useful, meaningful and fulfilling jobs that endure, that make them buzz inside and appreciate life more.
Big ask? Maybe.
Maybe not.

Thanks Geoskid.

Richard,
I did not think that you were denigrating anyone just wonderering "how do they make it happen " not everyone leaves school with skills other than their ability for physical work so where do they "make it happen"if not in the industries that are so criticized by some.
corvus

[clarence]

SBS - Few probably see the wild like you do and yet you return again and again from civilisation as we call it.
Your contrasts would be so diverse and come and go like the seasons.
I'd encourage you to keep the flow of beautiful images of those special places.
Richard

Remember, SBS is looking for good ratings on TV and it is in their interests to make their stories as dramatic and controversial as possible. I have visited the Tarkine on an extended off track expedition. I was planning another except the area was closed by a fire. I wonder how many of the people who get emotional about the Tarkine have actually visited it (contributors to this thread excluded). I would guess there are hoardes of SBS-watching, latte-sipping bohemians in Balmain lamenting the destruction of Tarkine. For these people their only knowledge of the Tarkine is what they saw on SBS on their 54 inch flat screen TV that they bought from Harvey Norman. I have not seen the SBS story, but suggest it would give the armchair conservationists something to waffle on about, while they eat their foccacias full of Tassal salmon, walking along Glebe Point Rd in their Kathmandu puffer jackets.

By the way, I used to vote Green. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnvRmj7G3XE

Clarence

[baeurabasher]

Hi Corvus. I dont think you understand my posts correctly, And with respect, I wish not to enter a debate with you as you tend to turn everything into a one sided argument.

However... No I think we need these things, but we just need to be careful. Very careful. We only have ONE environment. Once we ruin it it is gone forever.

Hey Clarence, SBS is a person, not a tv station....

[Nuts]

tut tut, clarence doesn't know who sbs is, he must be a redneck!!

Another good post clarence.. you see comments around the net, some of them are lucky to spell pristine.
Coming down to save d tarkine.. er.. where exactly is it?

It's not about Tarkine jobs being an election winner yet some are quick to play that card when it suits. Carefully craft or somehow leave useful captions off pics, surely it's not just the 'rednecks' that can read or do 5 mins research?

Assuming Corvus has some intelligence, his comments don't need to be seen as the opposition... a 'lobyist'. If Greenies had done something beside moan and spout grand ideals there could already be full employment in the region... ok , perhaps not but there does need to be consideration of locals in any way forward (obviously..) Where are the alternative proposals? I'd like to see a short time limit on exploration licences and a push for reservation outside active tenements.. i'd tick that box today. At least there would be some reprieve, time to effect reasonable local change.

When did the assumption that mining was bad take hold? Sure, companies get greedy, they always will.. (they need to be held to close account) Iv'e seen things happen in tourism that would blow the milk out of ones latte. While emotion and passion make good reading and initially bring these things to the public domain they seem to sabotage good discussion.

Least we are all calling it 'Tarkine', a pat on the head?

[Clusterpod]

It seems a oft-repeated side of this argument is that if an area is experiencing economic hardship, and the social issues that result, then further exploitation of the environment (despite the known negative environmental impacts that are always felt during and long, long after such exploitation) is not only justified, but essential.

Rather than families, communities, townships and regions working together to facilitate change in the obvious faults of the system that penalises us due to our geographical location, we want to "keep up" with our neighbours, so to speak, by following the absurd and illogical unlimited growth paradigm.

Must it be business as usual, competitive, exploitative, despite the immense cost, rather than attempting anything collaborative and mutually beneficial?

[Taurë-rana]

tut tut, clarence doesn't know who sbs is, he must be a redneck!!

LOL


When did the assumption that mining was bad take hold? [/quote]

Not sure that it is assumed that mining is bad as a blanket statement, any more than forestry is bad as a general statement, but mining can have devastating, long lasting effects on the environment that can leave huge areas badly polluted and degraded for a very long time. That is a fact and is borne out by what has happened in lots of places around the world including Tassie. Unless environmental controls are much stricter and penalties for pollution are much tighter, mining will usually be a threat to the wellbeing of the environment around it.

[Nuts]

I agree, there should be nothing coming out of those mines but ores. Nothing degrading the country surrounding the lease or downstream. Maybe the costs will rise far enough to send the mines somewhere else.

[Nuts]

Not sure that it is assumed that mining is bad as a blanket statement, any more than forestry is bad as a general statement

There was a post complaining about mine employment advertising (in adchoices) on here. No, it's more a feeling from a few sources. Personally- mining just 'is'- We currently use stuff that needs to be dug up, let's hope We don't turn on the rest of our wilderness before we evolve further! Probably no immediate answers there though.

Generally, this topic, (on here) has been fairly tame in comparison to others online. It's obviously pretty frustrating for some.. at least there is a chance to be heard.

Must it be business as usual, competitive, exploitative, despite the immense cost, rather than attempting anything collaborative and mutually beneficial?

It would be interesting to see a contribution from someone at the coal face, those few who really do know of long term plans, alternatives, challenges from both 'sides'... controvesial or not. I know some posting here will have more insight than would be wise to share but those employed or dedicated to the cause at the pointy end would be assured of at least listing the facts in a less biased, less 'free-for-all' setting... (ignoring that rambling moderator of course )

[stepbystep]

Glad to see th debate continuing in my absence I'm fortunate to have been in our wild places for the last 4 days.

Firstly, Frenchy. The reason the Shree and Riley mines are first cab off the rank is to get 'something' through the system. Approved. Operating. Profitable. It also points to the 'culmulative effects' black hole that exists in the approval process. If one operator, say, Venture, operate Riley for 3 years with no great noticable affect then Mt Lindsay is a no brainer etc etc, and once an area has had it's heart sliced open why not remove the liver and the lungs?

Geoskid, because I've seen the figures on the Pilchard catch on the west coast, unfortunately I don't have them but will try and find them from the source that showed me. I've also talked at length with fishermen of the west coast, one of 40+ years who backs this assertion.

I agree with this part of your comment 100%

Any activist that is not first and foremost a student of human thinking, and instead focuses on the effects of human acts/behaviours is at least one step removed from understanding the root cause of any problem caused by humans, and will be largely ineffective in making changes.(IMO)

My hope is a new generation of engagement driven pragmatic activism will break down some of these age old divisions. It's my greatest area of interest in affecting positive change, I'm working through the how's and the when's now with input from a very diverse bunch to say the least.

Hi Taswegian, you write beautifully, I wish I could express myself as well.

+1 Thankyou Richard.

[Clusterpod]

Geoskid, because I've seen the figures on the Pilchard catch on the west coast, unfortunately I don't have them but will try and find them from the source that showed me. I've also talked at length with fishermen of the west coast, one of 40+ years who backs this assertion.

I'm an ex-pilchard purse-seiner (in WA). I lost my job when the entire fishery collapsed due to disease. I would be very, very surprised if this wasn't due to a combination of overfishing, industrial uses of fish spawning grounds and pollution from mining residue.

I understand the fishery is on a recovery, and struggle to believe that after such a wake-up call, fishing resumed.

[Nuts]

Good stuff. This diverse group SBS, who are they? A group, with a name? perhaps you can invite the people involved to chip in? What does 'a new generation of engagement driven pragmatic activism' mean in practical terms?

[stepbystep]

Good stuff. This diverse group SBS, who are they? A group, with a name? perhaps you can invite the people involved to chip in? What does 'a new generation of engagement driven pragmatic activism' mean in practical terms?

I think you overstate the importance of this forum nuts.

It means consulting stakeholders, understanding their needs and hopes for the future and trying to address them with positive outcomes. We are, everyone that works in or visits the Tarkine region a stakeholder in it's future.

[Nuts]

No, i'm under no illusions SBS. As iv'e said i think it is potentially a great access point. I can understand if it's easier done elsewhere but I actually think others underestimate the potential (of 17000 readers)

A stakeholders group does sound positive, i'm sure others here would like to hear more?

[clarence]

SBS=Step by step. Got it. Not the national "alternative broadcaster".
So Stepbystep, how do you look on a 54 inch flat screen TV?
Rather than delete the post I'll leave it up so others may get a laugh from my mistake.
LOL indeed

[taswegian]

Corvus wrote

just wonderering "how do they make it happen " not everyone leaves school with skills other than their ability for physical work so where do they "make it happen"if not in the industries that are so criticized by some.

Corvus there isn’t an easy solution and unless there is a desire for change then probably no changes will take place until we are completely over burdened with problems from poor environmental management leading to social issues never experienced in our lifetime.

The ‘they’ refers to those in places that have the ability to influence future directions through policies they adopt and adhere to through thick and thin with a goal to see break throughs that transform the work place in positive ways encouraging and bringing other industries with them.

This probably starts with Government(s) agreeing on course of positive action(s) and not wavering in their quest to see them through. By Government I mean a majority of Parliament, not a majority party. This is where it can get fickle as is so amply demonstrated by our past and present governments.

We have seen it work. Plain label cigarette packages, plastic shopping bags are both simple cases where neither majority party seems intent on undoing these decisions.

I’ll use one example- Electricity. It has been abundantly clear in recent times there is no long term security surrounding environmentally considered electricity generation, its application in our daily lives and the ongoing development and continuing training of people to give them the skills to propel us into the next phase.
Incandescent globes. Overnight they were replaced with something costing up to 10+ times as much with no real provision for disposing of the new globes when they go bung despite being cheaper to run but a hazard to be avoided when disposed of.
However that gave an outcome that made considerable savings in electricity use but also with not inconsiderable cost to consumers.
And yet the old ways of generation remained unchanged.
Many complained at that cost (I did) yet we survived and now it’s a part of history.

What would the effect be if Government (fully supported by majority of parliament) adopted a phase out of say coal fire power stations in 5?, 10?, 15 Years?
The backlash from those with clout in the electricity generation, market, mining and processing coal would be enormous by those opposing any change. And yet the research and development would be viral and design and construction would see a transition to the new and exciting opportunities this would create.
We would look back and say ‘Why didn’t we do it sooner?’

The industrial revolution created turmoil at its time yet heralded in so many things we take for granted with countless developments since that time.
The rate of change we see in so much of our lives is dramatic and in some cases out of control. But most of that is consumerism at its very worse and while we freely embrace that aspect of life other lifestyle changes are not so welcome if at all.

An old story has always stuck with me of how Pharaoh refused to deliver straw but demanded as many bricks to be made as before when he supplied it (straw). But he never said they had to use straw, only they were responsible for finding their own. The number of bricks was the issue.
I’m not sure civilisations have changed much. ‘We have always done it this way’ syndrome is a chronic disease with many today.
Why didn’t those early slaves to the Egyptians think outside the box and deliver the bricks in another form?
Probably the same reason we stick with an ever increasing delivery of time honoured ways to do all manner of things.

Obviously decisions like this would cost jobs but we are not in the time of the industrial revolution and we have the ability and means to look after each other and governments should be better placed to support and retrain.
Flat Earth economists would probably kill this dead and are to be avoided like the plague.
And yet the new jobs created would have to be taken into account.

So is this pie in the sky? Is it too hard for many to bear?
Or does it strike at the heart of those that wish someone would do something about our predicament, whilst feeling helpless in their inability to make ‘it happen’.