Another death on Overland Track

[Ellobuddha]

I get involved in kiting and sailboarding in winter in NSW and Victoria. A well respected older sailor once told me that for every 20knots of wind there is a windchill factor of 8degrees dropped. e.g on a 5 degree day with 40Knots you would have a windchill temperature drop of 16 degrees - giving windchill factor of -11.

No doubt there would be other infuencing factors. I have checked this theory on BOM station readings for thredbo and it appears to be a consistently correct theory.

Someone on this forum may be able to shed more light on it - as to the science behind it.

I did the OT in September last year and the walk to Lake Windermere on the exposed sections was brutal with strong winds, sleet and snow. So glad we were prepared. Plenty of snow and wind other sections but that was the worst.

Thoughts are with the poor guys family.

[icefest]

Wind chill is a function of the temperature difference between body temperature and wind speed.

This means that the same wind increase at a lower temperature lowers the apparent temp by more than if it were warmer.

Of course this is simplified, there's a lot more to it. Tell me if you want a more complicated or simplified answer.

[Lophophaps]

nz metservice mountain forecasts recently changed to issue a windchill temp in preference to actual air temp, gives various locations in a park at various altitudes on the more popular tracks to give an idea of what to expect.last year there was a mass rescue of 15 people in one day..

Windchill temperature - that's an idea. But how many bumblies would understand? See
http://bushwalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6878&p=112107
for a description of deaths 40 years ago. Maybe we have to accept that despite the best efforts of those involved - parks staff, BW shops, books, websites, bus drivers and those on the track - people will come to grief. This will be at all levels. Beginners will not know better and those with experience will be in more hazardous places.

I've treated a beginner skier for hypothermia. No lunch, started late, blizzard, and not fit. One foolish walker wanted to take a 20 litre drum to Mac Springs as the creek was dry. She stopped after 100 or so metres. Sore arm. Near there in summer a walker fell into a gorge. Now there are warning signs. If the person can't see the gorge and stand clear then I wonder if a person can read. The mountains don't pick and choose. I've lost experienced friends in the Himalayas, NZ and Australia.

[wayno]

as i see it windchill would be far worse when you're wet, since heat loss goes up greatly when you're wet, being wet in the wind greatly increases your chances of hypothermia and death

[Ellobuddha]

Icefest,

More info would be appreciated.

I proabably should have started a different thread. Maybe they will move it? I think its quite an interesting topic and think its good to know as mcu as possible about things that raise your risk levels.

Perhaps you could reply under a new thread of Wind Chill factor discussion?

[wayno]

when you pass air over a given mass of a known temperature at an increasing rate the ability of the air to draw heat from that mass increases with the increase in windspeed, you've got an increasing amount of fresh cold air contating teh surface of the mass contunually pulling more heat from the mass
in still air for instance you will have some heat loss but there is a slight insulating effect because the air next to tehmass will be at a temperature in between the cooler air temp and the temp of the mass. with increasing air sped this insulating effect diminishes so you get to a state where the air contacting the surface of the mass is at the temp of the air itself and any insulating effect vanishes increasing the temperature difference and increases the temp (energy) loss from the warmer mass to the cooler air.
if your skin is wet you have additional evaporative heat loss that can take heat away at an even faster rate, water absorbs heat from the skin as it evaporates and the denser mass of water transmits cold temps a lot faster to the skin, up to twenty times.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_chill

[dazintaz]

When are they going to build an emergency hut along Cradle Cirque, which is without question the most dangerous part of the OT???????

[ILUVSWTAS]

When are they going to build an emergency hut along Cradle Cirque, which is without question the most dangerous part of the OT???????

Very sad a human life was lost recently, but I dont think it's a terribly dangerous place as a whole, and I dont think the cost of building ANOTHER hut in the area is justified. Accidents like this one could happen anywhere along the track.

Sorry, it's just my view.

[doogs]

A hut along Cradle Cirque would encourage people to set out on a walk in poor conditions as they would think it is safer with the extra hut there.

[MrWalker]

A hut along Cradle Cirque would encourage people to set out on a walk in poor conditions as they would think it is safer with the extra hut there.

A problem with the current OLT booking system is that a lot of people turn up by bus after lunch and by the time they get their passes sorted, etc, it is after 2pm before they start the walk. Then they have a long steep climb, then feel obliged to climb Cradle Mt, followed by a very rough section along the Cirque. It can start to get cold as soon as the sun gets a bit low, well before sunset. Combine that with a southerly wind and they're doomed. Well possibly.

I think we need to get people started much earlier in the day, while it's still warm and sunny. Checking gear won't help, that would just end up with more people making late starts. Changing the bus timetable would be good, so they have no excuse for a late start.

[stry]

A hut along Cradle Cirque would encourage people to set out on a walk in poor conditions as they would think it is safer with the extra hut there.

A problem with the current OLT booking system is that a lot of people turn up by bus after lunch and by the time they get their passes sorted, etc, it is after 2pm before they start the walk. Then they have a long steep climb, then feel obliged to climb Cradle Mt, followed by a very rough section along the Cirque. It can start to get cold as soon as the sun gets a bit low, well before sunset. Combine that with a southerly wind and they're doomed. Well possibly.

I think we need to get people started much earlier in the day, while it's still warm and sunny. Checking gear won't help, that would just end up with more people making late starts. Changing the bus timetable would be good, so they have no excuse for a late start.

This situation of late starts definitely occurs, but it isn't a result of the booking system. It is a result of people trying to save time and possibly an overnight stay prior to starting the walk, particularly, I expect those who have travelled from interstate, wanting to start on the day they arrive in Tas.

The time needed to walk to WFV and the wisdom of an early start is well publicised, and is provided with booking information. Parks have a daily cut off time for issuing passes to try and encourage people to make an early start.

This is yet another problem which is created by the walkers, not Parks.

[Bluegum Mic]

People will do what they want regardless of the information at hand sadly. It always amazes me to see people so ill prepared. Yesterday I was up at Charlotte Pass. It was 10 degress, raining and I later checked the BOM site to see at that time it was 50km winds gusting to 80km. I saw one elderly couple return from kosi in short shorts and rain jackets (their legs were purple and they were visibly shaking). I saw another two seperate groups of two set off also in short shorts. Two of them in footy shorts and very cheap looking weather proof jackets (I wouldnt say they were rain jackets). They were all off in the direction of blue lake. The worst was 50 kids got off a tour bus in tracksuit pants and jumpers, some with rain jackets. They too also headed off down towards the snowy river. Visibility was also crap. It was sad as I did not see one person well prepared. My 7 month old was better kitted out and we were just on the boardwalk for a few minutes.

[cjhfield]

I think it is very difficult to communicate the danger of cold to someone who has never experienced it. To many people who live in a warm state in suburbia being cold is just a discomfort, an annoyance. It's not something to be feared. When I was a student I went with a NSW group to Tas and spent considerable time explaining the weather down there. If it's not wool don't take it I said ( this was pre high tech gear). These were intelligent people but the first night camped East of Launceston one guy had shorts and a cotton sloppy joe. He had never experienced cold that he could not shrug off. He was shivering and totally mystified. We later raided the second hand shops to kit them out.

I don't think you can do the Overland without being exposed to the information. It's on the maps, the web sites, on wall displays. People just don't believe it if it is so far from their own experience. The information is there but people can't comprehend it.

Actually I am surprised more people don't die on the OT. There are lots of poorly equipped walkers.

A compulsory check list seems a good idea to me.

Chris

[wayno]

its a tribute to the robustness of a lot of people that they don't end up with hypothermia, sometimes its a fine line... most people get away with being ill equipped, the fact that they can keep moving is the deciding factor in staving off hypothermia....

[GPSGuided]

its a tribute to the robustness of a lot of people that they don't end up with hypothermia, sometimes its a fine line...

Indeed. It's not that easy to let a human die. The assault really has to be overwhelming.

[Mark F]

Compulsory check lists inevitably lead to problems. As person who travels quite light, when I turn up with a 10kg total, 40 litre pack, runners, no gaiters I am likely to be told "no go" because I don't have highly orthodox gear when in reality I am better equipped than many novice hikers carrying 20 kg. Ticking lists will satisfy a bureaucratic need but not stop fatalities.

[icefest]

Compulsory check lists inevitably lead to problems. As person who travels quite light, when I turn up with a 10kg total, 40 litre pack, runners, no gaiters I am likely to be told "no go" because I don't have highly orthodox gear when in reality I am better equipped than many novice hikers carrying 20 kg. Ticking lists will satisfy a bureaucratic need but not stop fatalities.

Personally I do not support compulsory check-lists.

Realistically while they will not stop fatalities, they would limit the chances of them occuring.
Unfortunatly this is at the expense of preventing walkers like you, who would not be in danger from walking.

In effect checklists have high sensitivity and low specificity (Lots of false positives).

[photohiker]

Compulsory check lists inevitably lead to problems. As person who travels quite light, when I turn up with a 10kg total, 40 litre pack, runners, no gaiters I am likely to be told "no go" because I don't have highly orthodox gear when in reality I am better equipped than many novice hikers carrying 20 kg. Ticking lists will satisfy a bureaucratic need but not stop fatalities.

I don't think that would be the way an inspection system should work. It could be a simple system that looks at a few necessary items such as some wet weather gear, some warm wear and adequate footwear (ie. not thongs) The intent should be to screen out the hopelessly under prepared. An UL walker should easily cover the bases.

Perhaps one option would be to require walkers who do not meet the minimum gear requirements would be for them to either leave the park or buy basics made available at the park store.

[cjhfield]

My idea of a compulsory list would be say 3 or 4 things that we would all agree we should carry. Not a complete packing list.

For example: a waterproof jacket, a warm jacket or jumper ( not cotton), long trousers or long johns or over pants ( not just jeans), a warm hat.

Would that be going too far?

Chris

[wayno]

i see people on overnight trips regularly with 20 or thirty litre back packs, so i dont think someone would necessarily get flagged with a 40 litre pack, as people have commented, some warm gear and waterproof gear is what you're really looking for and not wearing a lot of cotton

[Scottyk]

its a tribute to the robustness of a lot of people that they don't end up with hypothermia, sometimes its a fine line... most people get away with being ill equipped, the fact that they can keep moving is the deciding factor in staving off hypothermia....

I agree with this Wayno in that if your moving your warm. I can walk in short and a long sleeve thermal top with a long rain jacket over in just about any weather as long as I am moving. This means that I have to plan for the time when I will stop moving e.g.. stopped by weather or injury. For me this means knowing I have to layer up once stopped and or put up the tent. Usually in that order. I the tent can't be erected then the fly will be used as a bivy.
I think it when people loose the heat that movement creates after they have stopped they get into trouble.

[matagi]

i see people on overnight trips regularly with 20 or thirty litre back packs, so i dont think someone would necessarily get flagged with a 40 litre pack, as people have commented, some warm gear and waterproof gear is what you're really looking for and not wearing a lot of cotton

The thing is someone with a 40 litre pack could be carrying totally inappropriate gear, so pack size is no discriminator.

I am not in favour of compulsory checks or anything else of that nature because I think that shielding people too much prevents them from developing the ability to assess risk adequately (something you also referred to in your excellent and eloquent post earlier). I take a more pragmatic approach and think it is up to the individual to inform themselves and make appropriate preparations.

With reference to the unfortunate young man who died from hypothermia on the Cirque, I believe there were some cultural factors that came into play which contributed to his demise.

[Scottyk]

With reference to the unfortunate young man who died from hypothermia on the Cirque, I believe there were some cultural factors that came into play which contributed to his demise.

What a silly thing to say. Your nationality has nothing to do with your ability to survive harsh conditions. Your experience, preparations and the gear on your back are important not the country you come from.

[matagi]

With reference to the unfortunate young man who died from hypothermia on the Cirque, I believe there were some cultural factors that came into play which contributed to his demise.

What a silly thing to say. Your nationality has nothing to do with your ability to survive harsh conditions. Your experience, preparations and the gear on your back are important not the country you come from.

I did not mention his nationality, so I am not sure how you came to the conclusion that is what I meant.

[Scottyk]

If I misunderstood what you were saying, what did you mean then? Which cultural factors came into play exactly?

[ILUVSWTAS]

If I misunderstood what you were saying, what did you mean then? Which cultural factors came into play exactly?

Quite interested in hearing this myself.

[icefest]

If I misunderstood what you were saying, what did you mean then? Which cultural factors came into play exactly?

Quite interested in hearing this myself.

I just hope the explanation doesn't start with "I'm not racist but..."

It's taken considerable self-control not to say anything earlier...

[ILUVSWTAS]

If I misunderstood what you were saying, what did you mean then? Which cultural factors came into play exactly?

Quite interested in hearing this myself.

I just hope the explanation doesn't start with "I'm not racist but..."

It's taken considerable self-control not to say anything earlier...

Same, but I dont think it will be the case here, however it is intriguing though......

[Lizzy]

How about selling pack liners like they have in NZ that you can use as an emergency bivvy or the emergency space blankets in bivvy style- I bought one of these each for the whole family to take on walks? Not too many $ and not too much weight
Some sort of emergency shelter could be made compulsory kit perhaps....

http://www.amazon.com/Adventure-Medical ... B0012GWFOK

http://www.mountainsafety.org.nz/Resour ... ?t=1&cat=7

[ILUVSWTAS]

Back to the same old problems though Lizzy, How do we police it, and who does??

I think as said a few times, it's up to us to make sure we look after ourselves in the activities we partake in. Sadly, some wont and the consequences will be dire.

Just human nature i'm afraid.