Lake Rhona toilet issue

[pazzar]

Hi Binder,

Great to see some thought being put into the issue. I am heading up there in a couple of weeks time for a field trip for uni to look at this exact issue (I am doing a wilderness management course), but I am also taking advantage of being able to choose my trip, so I'm taking a group up from the University Walking Club. I was wondering where poo tubes are available from? I would like to encourage as many of the walkers that come with me to carry out instead of contribute to the problem.

Cheers,

Jared

[whynotwalk]

was wondering where poo tubes are available from? I would like to encourage as many of the walkers that come with me to carry out instead of contribute to the problem.

Hi Jared - great thinking! Brendan may have a fuller answer, but if all else fails, a plumbing supply shop should be able to cut some poly pipe to length and put a screw seal on one end and a glued seal on the other. That way you can get a longer tube than the shop-bought alternatives such as those jumbo sized fish oil tubs.

cheers

Peter

[Binder]

There are a number of different containers I have been looking at that are commercially available. They understandably have to have a deep thread screw type lid that won't pop off inside your pack, for obvious reasons.I haven't got any direct retail sources where you can buy a small quantity yet, but still working on it.

Some of the commercial tour companies go with a length of 75mm or 100 mm PVC storm water pipe, varying in length from 500mm to 750 mm, glued at one end, screwed at the other, which can then be strapped up the outside of the pack. This gives them a fairly good range.

Durks

The lads I was talking to in Scotland are at the Cairngorm National Park. They have had a system running for a couple of years now, mainly centred around the high alpine areas, during winter. They provide the tube and the bag, and then have a couple of drop off points near the exits from the park, where people can leave the whole container. These are the collected, cleaned out and reused.

http://cairngormmountain.org/page/keep- ... snow-white


Cheers

Binder

[durks]

The lads I was talking to in Scotland are at the Cairngorm National Park. They have had a system running for a couple of years now, mainly centred around the high alpine areas, during winter ...[snip]...

Thanks - that's very interesting, and I hadn't heard of it.

The Coire Cas car park mentioned is the main car park for all downhill skiing in the Cairngorms, and it's also the roadhead for climbing in the northern Cairngorms (both winter and summer) - so it sees a lot of traffic. Not many people winter climbing in that area would be out overnight (not deliberately, anyway!), but I know that various organisations run snow-holing trips there - so it sounds like the measures being taken are a sensible response to that.

Similar measures in other areas of the Scottish hills would be a good idea - and not just in Winter.

[north-north-west]

The lads I was talking to in Scotland are at the Cairngorm National Park. They have had a system running for a couple of years now, mainly centred around the high alpine areas, during winter. They provide the tube and the bag, and then have a couple of drop off points near the exits from the park, where people can leave the whole container. These are the collected, cleaned out and reused.

Now, that's a great idea. It'll overcome a fair amount of the 'yuckiness' objections.
I'm always in favour of someone else cleaning up.

[pazzar]

I went to K&D today and bought supplies to build 2 tubes. I bought 1m of 100mm pipe, with a screw top fitting for each with a lid, and a seal for the bottom. It weighs about 800g all up, a bit heavier than I was hoping for, but it will do the job. It will be interesting to see how they go, and whether my group think they are a good idea.

[Nuts]

we made some group sized (for up to 14... for a week...) that same size, i guess you could try to encourage people to pee into them (but then spread around its (sterile & ) not such a problem). You can get an awful lot in a much smaller tube. Not sure if they do 75mm tube screw caps anymore but we have some also (same size as the demo at Pine Valley) but they would be preferable. Was years ago i made them if i remember the calculations they (100mm x 600mm) hold around 7L (can check this) and we were working on 4/5 large turds per litre... only used them once or twice years ago also (we tend to try to end up a toilet/hardened sites). Alo make good food drop stashes (which we used also) (not the same tubes obviously)..

Last edited by Nuts on Thu 14 Jul, 2011 5:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.

[stepbystep]

I went to K&D today and bought supplies to build 2 tubes. I bought 1m of 100mm pipe, with a screw top fitting for each with a lid, and a seal for the bottom. It weighs about 800g all up, a bit heavier than I was hoping for, but it will do the job. It will be interesting to see how they go, and whether my group think they are a good idea.

We need to see photos upon your return Jared
Would be nice of you to record what your group thinks pre and post walk, plus some stats. How many in your group?

[Nuts]

We need to see photos upon your return Jared

This has potential to get rather bazzar but yer some stats would benefit everyone thinking of doing this, it really wouldn't be a huge budget for parks to buy n supply (ie give away even), where necessary for tassie walkers some places it should have happened already. What is the strategy for doing the deed pazzar, you can just use layers of kitchen paper (carefully)

[pazzar]

Here is a before shot - I imagine it will see some decorative work before it makes its debut. I am open to names to call the devices.

I don't know whether it is appropriate to show after shots, or in use shots

Good idea with the opinions before and after SBS. I am only going up for a night, so there is a fair chance half of us wont use it, but take it all the same. There are around 10 of us heading up at this stage - I imagine some will decide that it will be too hard in the current conditions.

I figure one tube would be big enough for 2 or 3 people for a half week or so. I am not encouraging people to urinate in them, as it will just add to weight, and I think the detergent will break it all down and give it a pleasant scent

[Nuts]

good one...for personal use, you may find cleaning it out easier with a plastic bag as a liner (scented plastic kitchen bags?/garbage bag etc)

[pazzar]

for a group, would it be wise to try and get some sort biodegradable bag to do the business in? Surely that would make it slightly more hygienic, easier to dispose of, and easy to clean.

[Nuts]

Certainly, they weren't available when we last used the tubes, i believe there are some links here somewhere to corn starch bags if you could source them in time? Probably more 'pleasant' allround, depends a bit how 'delicate' the cleaner is more than the user (who just has to drop the business in and screw on the lid). As mentioned, last time we used them we just did the drier side of said deed on a couple of sheets of kitchen paper, (careful to choose a drier /elevated position)) dropped into the tube (lined with plastic garbage bag) then dumped the contents (slowly, with a few flushes) into the toilet back in town and the garbage bag in the bin...violla voila' There will come a time when we need to use tubes again so im interested in what comes of anything added to the topic.

[Son of a Beach]

Methinks a shorter design that you could actually sit on might be good. Not sure how to make a comfy top for it though.

[gayet]

You could always add a small 'seat' to the top of the tube - a flat sheet of PVC with a hole in the middle. Doesn't need to be large, wide enough to be able to balance with tops of legs / thighs. Would be able to strap it to the outside of the pack as well for ease of carrying. Of course it needs to be separate to the tube. Add some lugs to one side of it to help in positioning over the hole. Just a thought

[pazzar]

just carry a mini inflatable donut to place on top, I'm sure they are cheap, and can be disposed of after use. More PVC just makes it heavier. I think at 500mm it is a reasonable height to sit on anyway.

[doogs]

I am open to names to call the devices.

Keith.
If you go to the baby section of a supermarket you will find nappy sacks which would be the perfect small, scented and biodegradable bag for the jobby you need it for

[pazzar]

So to report on my trip - we carried in a Poo Tube for the weekend, unfortunately (or fortunately?) it didn't have to be used. I carried in biodegradable kitter litter liners, which were scented, and biodegradable garbage bags to put them in. Several of the guys that were with me wanted to use it, but had no need to, and were put off by the threat of having to carry the tube out. The deal was if you were the first to use it, you had to carry it! I would be interesting to test over a longer period of time to see how many would actually use when it became a necessity.

As for the the issue of waste laying around, there was very little evidence, although we found some toilet paper frozen in ice. You could probably see from my photos ( viewtopic.php?f=9&t=7233 ) that it was hard to find waste on the ground as it was covered in ice! And since the lake was frozen, we had little concern about drinking the water, and only used it for cooking anyway.

Cheers,

Jared

[vagrom]

How about a "Bazooka". It looks like one. With a bit of practice ...

[pazzar]

The thought of a poo tube/orange cannon had crossed my mind. Pre loaded with projectiles!

[Strider]

Walked into Rhona for an overnighter on Monday night. Found this halfway up the ridge climb - says it all really.

FYI I am standing ON the track. No zoom involved.

Attachments

[corvus]

That looks like an emergency dump and uncomfortable with the herbage up the ring however it is totally unacceptable as a couple of meter off the track and no one would have noticed especially if buried or at least covered and well away from the water source.
Never been to Rhona is it a touristy type walk or one that serious walkers do ??
corvus

[Strider]

Emergency dump or not, there is no need to strew meters of toilet paper all around the surrounding button grass.

The last person we passed was 25 minutes behind his mate. Claimed he got "lost"...

Rhona isn't too touristy. Just getting to the start of the track takes some effort! The campsites did appear well used, however.

[Onestepmore]

Page 13 of thread: "Game: Where is it (Aussie)" includes a pic of Rawson's Hut, where they've " tunnelled into the hillside" to solve their loo problem. A different sort of Poo Tube..? [Woops, no. It's at Rawson's Pass, near Mt Kozzi].

Photo is Lake Cootapatamba. The loo is about 2 km away just below Mt Kosi. That area gets a lot of traffic (100,000 bushwalkers hike to the summit each year). I think that solution might be overkill for a more remote location like Lake Rhona, not to mention the cost or visual impact .
Highest toilet in Australia at Rawsons Pass, Kosiuscko NP NSW

The loos at Rawsons Pass near Mt Kosci specifically have signs that say that you can't dispose of poo tubes there - I'm presuming there is some type of disposable type as opposed to the PVC pipes shown above?
By the way, the loos there are great, to contend with the large number of tourists that walk up from Thredbo or Charlottes Pass. The summit looked like a music festival on easter Saturday! No water, but hand sanitiser and instruction signs in each unisex stainless steel cubicle. There was no odour. The loos are pumped out and the waste transported down the Summit Road, so no access problems there.

Has anyone tried these sorts of things? http://www.worksafegear.com/shop/detail ... kit-waste/
Plastic bags for waste that you add some sort of 'poo powder'

When referring trying to change group behaviour, ie implementing 'carry out' practises and compulsory poo tubes or whatever, I am sure there was opposition to people being told to carry bear canisters when hikling in California. Now it's considered standard practise. I am assumng it's a requirement? Does anyone know how/if it's enforced?

And fourthly, does anyone have a pic of these 'Sputniks'? I can only find something like this http://www.indiamart.com/rahul-sanitati ... one-urinal, and I'm sure that's not what you're referring to.
Is it a portaloo type cabin? Surely a pit toilet built of suitable camouflaged materials sympathetic to the surroundings has got to be better than that sort of thing. I'd certainly walk further afield out of camp to use a loo, and would preferentially camp when something like that was available than contend with what you guys are describing. The whole place sounds pretty off putting. And don't get me wrong, I'm not some prissy wuss - I'm a vet. I deal with poo on a daily basis - lots of it

Last edited by Onestepmore on Sun 07 Apr, 2013 6:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[Nuts]

The 'sputniks' are simply a reinforced fibreglass tank built to be picked up by a chopper, probably 200L or so (at a guess). They may be more purpose built in the latest configuration but from what iv'e seen they were initially designed as the overflow tank for the 'composting' toilet systems, pressed into service as fly out buckets. The ones in the Arthurs (that I have seen) were simply these tanks put into place but they mostly have some sort of cubicle built above (from a 4 room mansion on the Overland to a simple platform as in the recent WA warning thread)

That's pretty Gross strider.

[tibboh]

Sputniks more like 500+ kg/litres with a screw top lid

[tastrax]

A little bit of history on the fly out sputniks...

The original fly out dunnies were actually old slip on fire tanks however it pretty quickly became apparent that a "pile of poo" was in actual fact quite solid and did not "flow" all that much to fill up the crevices in the square tanks so a new design was created to replicate the general shape of a "pile of poo". The sputnik shape was designed to hold 450 litres which at the time was about what a helicopter could lift.

Since then they have been used to handle bulk waste from the overland toilets and more recently under pedestals in toilet buildings (Kitchen Hut and Bivouac Bay). With a longer drop zone there is a bit more "splat effect"and the piles flatten out somewhat. The very latest design (the flat top with pedestal) is actually an enlarged tank for the Gough fly out toilets (Mt Anne hut toilet) and have a greater capacity that is closer to the new weights that modern helicopters can lift. Time will tell if we can actually fill them or if the pile only remains in the middle of the tank.

http://www.wyatt-family.com/phil/flyout.htm

[Nuts]

That tank looks big, it looks inviting compared to some.
Here's the improved version from the WA topic. These would have been better on the OLT

Screen Shot 2013-04-04 at 8.58.27 AM.png (201.99 KiB) Viewed 19721 times

PS: "Time will tell if we can actually fill them or if the pile only remains in the middle of the tank."

Someone will have to walk through and give them a stir now and then? I'm sure if there is a uniform included people will jump at the chance

[north-north-west]

Someone will have to walk through and give them a stir now and then? I'm sure if there is a uniform included people will jump at the chance

That's one job I will not apply for when I move back down.

[Strider]

Someone will have to walk through and give them a stir now and then? I'm sure if there is a uniform included people will jump at the chance

A mate has a composting toilet at his shack. It has a handle you crank which moves a spreader which effectively moves all the waste towards the outside of the tank. Works well for stirring in the sawdust mixture too.