Tarkine mining

[frenchy_84]

new lines or just replacing existing lines? I know there was alot of work needed in upgrading/maintaining the currently used line to Melba flats but i doubt anyones got the money to put new lines in at this stage.

[doogs]

New lines apparently, but not from the most educated source mind you, also the conversation was at a Christmas party. I work with his wife and know he has been staying in Burnie a lot recently, can't be for pleasure as Burnie is a dump.
I will try and find out more, but I have the next few days away..

Last edited by doogs on Wed 13 Feb, 2013 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[frenchy_84]

Well Im glad that Tony Burke has not listed the whole Tarkine on the register. There is no doubt that there are many areas within the region that deserve listing however there are also many areas that do not. The wilderness society et al. are having a rally in Bourke St mall tomorrow for the Tarkine, its important that its in Melbourne and not Burnie because its a lot easier to convince people who have never been there that is a “pristine untouched wilderness” than those who have. How do the heavily logged Sumac forests, the mining settlements of Balfour, Savage River, Corrina and Luina, Farming and shack communities of Temma and Couta Rocks, the zig zag of degraded 4x4 tracks along the coast fit in with their “pristine untouched wilderness”. Don’t get me wrong, a lot does deserve protection but not a whole blanket listing on the whole region
Following this logic, it makes sense for the any development in Bushy Park to be considered against the heritage values of Mt Field. Oh, you didn’t know? Well there is a new region with amazing heritage values called FlorHwayPark (It’s the region delineated by Gordon Road, Florentine River and Lyell Highway, because all good wilderness areas are delineated by roads. I was hoping it would be named after the indigenous people of the region but my knowledge on the subject is non existent.)

Taswegian mentioned the 3 pillars of sustainable development (environment, economic and social) its not sustainable if only the environment is looked after. All 3 need to be balanced equally.
I am personally a fan of mining (I have spent some time at Savage River and I now work in a coal mine near Mackay) and believe that while it is not the sole magic bullet but it can be part of a multifaceted solution to Tasmania’s issues (well worth a read: http://www.crikey.com.au/2013/01/30/wha ... ing-state/).
If you look at Savage River, it has the environmental legacy of being an old mine, however, the site clears only as much vegetation that is required, where the pits or dumps finish myrte forest begins. Savage river runs between two of the pits yet 100m downstream of the mine you would not even be able to tell the mine was there. I also regularly saw both Wedge tail and Sea Eagles, obviously not to bothered by mine in the middle of the forest. You also need to consider the footprint of the mine for the amount of people that it employees, if it was forestry the amount of people they have onsite (working 24x7) would have that area logged within a week. Yet that mine can employee so many people onsite plus the flow on to the wider NW community. I would hate to see what the NW would be like if Savage had to shut down. Surely the benefit to the community outweighs the cost to the environment in that one small (in the scheme of things) area. At the end of life of mine when it is rehabilitated the degradation will be minor.
Modern mines are nothing like what the used to be like, using Queenstown as example of why mining should be banned is ridiculous (Life must be blissful Hallu).
I am not suggesting that all mines should go ahead, what I would like to see is a compromise between both parties where we see some areas protected while each mine venture is approved/rejected on its own merits and that strict environmental guidelines are followed.

[Hallu]

Oh well then if "100m downstream of the mine you would not even be able to tell the mine was there" and if you "regularly saw both Wedge tail and Sea Eagles" then I'm sure everything is fine... You don't measure the environmental impact of a mine by sight and birds, you measure it by analyzing river and soil samples over years or decades, you check constantly the health of amphibians populations, insects and vegetation. Then you can tell if a forest is healthy or impacted.

I'm not against all mines, after all what they extract is needed, but Australia is economically powerful enough not to have to resort to third world country schemes. They're already selling huge parcels of land to the Chinese on the mainland, how long before it's the same in Tasmania (maybe it already is...) for the sake of "new jobs" ? And what if government funds for mining again lead to corruption and self interest as it's been the case for Australian mining companies in Africa ( http://www.globalresearch.ca/aid-money- ... ca/5309531 ) ?

[doogs]

I agree Frenchy mining would be a good source of income and jobs for Tasmania as at the moment we have very little Tertiary and Quaternary industries which do need capital to get started. Throughout the GFC we saw that the Primary industries kept Australia out of financial trouble where a lot of more developed countries hit major money problems. If done correctly competent money managers then the extra cash could help promote jobs in developing cutting edge industries. Unfortunately Tasmania is seen as a second world state.
What is crap is the amount of land set aside to be reserved by Burke, what a pitiful area compared to the amount recommended.

[frenchy_84]

Oh well then if "100m downstream of the mine you would not even be able to tell the mine was there" and if you "regularly saw both Wedge tail and Sea Eagles" then I'm sure everything is fine... You don't measure the environmental impact of a mine by sight and birds, you measure it by analyzing river and soil samples over years or decades, you check constantly the health of amphibians populations, insects and vegetation. Then you can tell if a forest is healthy or impacted.

Your exactly right, however i do not have access to those records I only have my own observations to go off. That is what mine enviros do as part of an environmental management plan, its about having current best practise methods in place, this is all ensured at approval stage

[Grindelwalddave]

The ingredients are there for the environment to be exploited in Tasmania over the coming years. Tasmanians are weary after many years of environmental battles beginning with Lake Pedder and manifesting recently with the proposed pulp mill. Burke's decision ten years ago would have led to massive protests and an outpouring of anger. I may be misreading things but the response so far though passionate for those directly involved in the campaign to protect the Tarkine has been fairly muted. Its not a great time to be a "greenie" in Tasmania. Job losses especially in the forestry industry have been blamed on the "greens". Newspaper blogs are full of venom and hate. Politicians will do anything at the moment to appear distant from any sort of environmentalist stance. The mantra is and will continue to be development, no lock ups, no green tape etc. This of course will leave the environment all over Tasmania not just the Tarkine vulnerable.

[wayno]

well if they cant get a job, do what I did and retrain in another industry,, how about lets say um, eco tourism?
of all the countless millions of square kilometres of land aus has thats wasteland the miners still want to go after one of the more pristine environments pretty much in it's entirety....
we get this in nz people on the west coast bitching theres no jobs, but tehy dont want to move or retrain they just want to sit there and make a lot of noise like the world owes them a living., then MOVE to where there are jobs, thats what i did, I don't like living in Auckland but neither do i like being unemployed thats why i had to move there... no one owes these miners a living , not even the govt.... i would prefer to live in auckland than ask to lay waste to rainforest so i can stay in a rural environment and have work... and the govt just ape what these people are saying because it suits them to do so.... not because they care at all about the jobs, because they are making money for their big business mates.... the unemployed are just convenient pawns in a game, and once the minerals are gone they'll be dumped and left where they are now, unemployed in tasmania

[MrWalker]

well if they cant get a job, do what I did and retrain in another industry,, how about lets say um, eco tourism?
of all the countless millions of square kilometres of land aus has thats wasteland the miners still want to go after one of the more pristine environments pretty much in it's entirety....
we get this in nz people on the west coast bitching theres no jobs, but tehy dont want to move or retrain they just want to sit there and make a lot of noise like the world owes them a living., then MOVE to where there are jobs, thats what i did, I don't like living in Auckland but neither do i like being unemployed thats why i had to move there... no one owes these miners a living , not even the govt.... i would prefer to live in auckland than ask to lay waste to rainforest so i can stay in a rural environment and have work... and the govt just ape what these people are saying because it suits them to do so.... not because they care at all about the jobs, because they are making money for their big business mates.... the unemployed are just convenient pawns in a game, and once the minerals are gone they'll be dumped and left where they are now, unemployed in tasmania

The trouble that's exactly what people are doing. Moving to where there are jobs - on the mainland.

[wayno]

some do but enough remain where they are and demand a living... it happens in a lot of rural areas. all over nz, there are areas rife with high unemployment has been for decades, and those areas are full of people who play the same tune, give me a living, lets exploit whatever resource we can where we are to make a living. they dont talk about getting an education or moving to where there are jobs... but who makes the money when the jobs come? where are the head offices?

[wayno]

according to this only around 100,000 tourists a year to tasmania are from outside aus
nz can get over a million tourists in from overseas a year, most of them are there to experience the scenery..
tasmania is just scratching the surface of what they can achieve if they focus on tourism.. and if they are raking in more and more money from tourists visiting the wilderness, i dont think they'll be so keen on turning over that scenery to the miners to deface...
yeah some places will become sacrificial lambs to the masses and you already have that here, but it still won't swamp all your wilderness , at least as long as the govt dont turn it all into mines...
http://www.tourismtasmania.com.au/__dat ... _sep12.pdf

[corvus]

some do but enough remain where they are and demand a living... it happens in a lot of rural areas. all over nz, there are areas rife with high unemployment has been for decades, and those areas are full of people who play the same tune, give me a living, lets exploit whatever resource we can where we are to make a living. they dont talk about getting an education or moving to where there are jobs... but who makes the money when the jobs come? where are the head offices?

Wayno ,
I don't really care about rural NZ and would not want to get involved in its its politics so why don't you get really vocal and involved with your local problems and let us Tasmanians handle ours without outsiders comments
Buy the way I hope you are enjoying your Tassi trip and please spend plenty as we need it
corvus

[wayno]

i dont think tassie is that different from nz, thats why i made the comments , different countries similar scenarios... plenty of nzers want to turn our native forests over to commercial interests for the money.... i see the same thing here.

[wayno]

nzers recently got the govt to reverse a decision on mining in national parks, by protesting about govts intentions to mine. nz's did it i hope tasmanians can too

[wayno]

so how will you handle the problem then corvus since you say its your problem

[Haydynb]

A nice example of what Tony's heritage decision represents...great to see him taking expert advise hey..??

At least he is being consistant....he banned the super trawler against recommendations from the scientific community, that was after lobbying by private fishermen...

[Hallu]

Well before coming to Australia I thought of Tasmania as a small rocky island with beaches, some Tassie devils, and that's it. And once you're in Australia ? Yeah you only hear about Port Arthur, Freycinet, and Cradle (damn stupid Lonely Planet) This is appalling how little advertising there is about Tasmania. Kangaroo Island by comparison is advertised ad nauseam, packed, and yet it's smaller, more expensive, harder to reach, rubbish roads, less wildlife, and less interesting scenery... I never understood that paradox. We have a French facebook/google group in Melbourne with plenty of people with a Working Holiday Visa, asking about kangaroo island, and I tell them to go to Tassie god damn it... But they always dream about Kangaroo Island first because "Lonely Planet says so"... I just tell them the price for the ferry to KI, the price of petrol, how small it is, how you have to pay for everything, and how Tassie is nothing like that, and usually they're convinced. So why can't it be done on a larger scale through a big promoting campaign ? Is it because Tasmanians are too closed up, just like Corvus ? I hope he doesn't represent the majority, it would be really sad...

[wayno]

the people with the money control the publicity to send the people with the money to them to make more money....
i'll use a nz example since it's one i know but it can be applied anywhere in the world
where do most milford sound visitors spend the night before and after visiting milford sound? queenstown....
it's three hundred k's away via roads that arent unlike tasmanian back roads .... windy and hilly a fair bit of the way.... the companies providing the accomodation pay the tourist operators to send the people there to stay... so the tourists have to take buses that leave between six and seven am from queenstown to milford sound in time to get the boat trip on the sounds and get back to queenstown in time for dinner....
they who have the money call the shots... the accomodation places in te anau thats 200km closer won't pay the money to the tour operator companies so they go without a lot of business....
now there are companies trying to come up with new ways to travel to milford sound that are shorter hoping to get a monopoly on the four thousand people a day who go to milford sounds... one way will involve knocking over thousands of trees. another drilling a tunnel. so the people with the money control what the tourists do and see to a certain extent.

[Nuts]

Arrggg Wayno, your everywhere! Please!!!, at least visit the place so you can contribute something specific to the topic rather than generalise about how much better things should be! You may be right with some points but as a local working in tourism I'd suggest that what you lack is local knowledge. A seemingly slight oversight but glaringly obvious! You should be out enjoying yourself, spending your hard earned $$

Hallu, the link was to an opposing view. Not my view but conservation takes a blow when experts ignore public perception:

"Some have accused Burke of trying to please marginal seat voters. If so, at least these marginal seat voters live where the consequences of the decision will matter, unlike the urban middle-class marginal seat voters who salve their consciences with environmental victories paid for by people they will never meet"

The answer is 'move'?? Really?? What think-tank did that come from?

I'm wondering if there was a plan B, the all-or-nothing has yet again left -not much ..and therefore the green 'cause' is left wanting?

[corvus]

Well Is it because Tasmanians are too closed up, just like Corvus ? I hope he doesn't represent the majority, it would be really sad...

G'day my young friend Hallu,
As an overseas visitor you are very welcome
One comment from you caught my attention that I was "closed up" on the contrary I am open to sustainable mining and horror perhaps a PULP MILL except itwould be at Hampshire in the NW area.
corvus

[Nuts]

I should add that there are some insightful contributions here from people who don't post often/much. Surely those with similar insight should be encouraged to post, with one report already and continued personal attacks i can imagine they feel timid to do so even if we can manage to keep the topic open. Keep it friendly, hopefully relevant.. both forum rules.

[stepbystep]

Lets be clear there are no jobs to lose just the chance less will be created. I don't think the whole area should be shutoff from exploration but sections of it must be, and more than a thin coastal strip!
I've read the correspondence between the state and federal govt and the desired result has been achieved.

edited, for my convenience, anyone else? other things to do..

[tasadam]

There are so many forum rules broken in this topic that I am too disgusted to waste my time with it.

[doogs]

It has stayed on topic though, and is far more interesting than most discussions. Back to the boring beige, cucumber sandwich and Darjeeling tea 'debate '.

[Nuts]

And what's wrong with cucumber sandwiches?

Put your hand up if you think you can do better? It might help understand how ridiculous statements like that really are! (some of these guys have spent years cleaning up such crap and the forum has been consistently worthwhile because of it).

Personally I don't think pages of such vaguely related argument or personal statements are 'on topic'.. but then they're still here aren't they.

[frenchy_84]

Well back on topic, I find it interesting that the solution to all Tasmanias economic woes is ecotourism. Its all well and good to say we don’t need to mine this or log that because eco tourism will get us thru. But where is at the moment whats holding it back? Its not like there are hundreds of thousands of would be tourists sitting at home saying “Well I would have gone to Tassie this summer but due to logging of a valley I had no intention of visting or mining a small area of a large region I am going to boycott Tassie this year.
And the thing that gets my goat the most, is these so called conservationists who still use forest/mining products they just don’t want it done in Tas. Its not like if we don’t produce these products the world will go with out, instead they will be logged in Borneo or mined in Africa where there are no environmental laws/standards to uphold and in all reality those areas are probably just as fitting of heritage listing just at much as Tas.
Hi Silica sand that is used in the manufacture of Hi tech glass for Iphones and Ipods are mined at a small operation near Corrina, hands up who would go without their Iphone to see the Tarkine locked up from mining.

[ollster]

It has stayed on topic though, and is far more interesting than most discussions. Back to the boring beige, cucumber sandwich and Darjeeling tea 'debate '.

+1 it's been good reading with the mods keeping their claws away from the posts.

EDIT: Nuts et al - STOP CLEANING UP TOPICS. For gods sake if you guys didn't get OCD about forcing people to obey the rules then you'd save yourselves a lot of bother... let the topics roam free. So what if Corvus shoots his mouth off again? The discussions around here get ruined more often by brutal mod intervention than by the topics going off topic or people calling each other names.

[Nuts]

Have they? LOL

I tend to agree Frenchy, so long as mining is held to account there is no reason to assume the impact Needs to be widespread. It's probably more about protecting the area from development in general, with concerns about the other 56 (?) licences. Unfortunately, as happens, some people will stop at nothing when it comes to rubbishing industry. It seems a more successful approach would be to present nothing but facts and alternatives (for green issues), assume the (increasingly educated) public has moved on from scare tactics.

Ironically, if tourism was promoted to replace some of these industries to the same level the big money is in exclusive accommodation, the next debate would involve holding back tourism developers.

[tasadam]

You are forgetting that being a member on this forum means that you agreed to this -
You agree that “Bushwalk Australia” have the right to remove, edit, move or close any topic at any time should we see fit.
Additionally the rules state
It is important that this site provides a friendly environment for all participants, however we do require that users abide by the site rules.

So by contributing to this forum, it is a requirement to adhere to the rules.
The purpose of the rules is so that the forum stays nice.
The purpose of moderation is for when (and only when) site rules are broken.
The whole purpose of the rules is so that we as moderators should have nothing to do.
If you can adhere to the forum rules there will be no problem.
If you cannot, see the moderation guidelines in the rules.

An example, do you think it would be fair and reasonable about someone coming along and saying to you that if you and your mates didn't get OCD about breaking site rules we'd have a lot less to do as moderators, that comment would be seen as friendly and polite?
I don't have OCD, and I don't thing an accusation of having OCD just because we are donating our time to try and keep this forum within the rules for the betterment of all forum members would be considered friendly or polite.

So, back to the topic please.

While it would be nice to see some areas of the Tarkine (apart from a skinny coastline strip) preserved, I do not think that they are about to destroy the whole of the Tarkine with mining like the hills surrounding Queenstown were destroyed a century or so ago.

[Hallu]

Well back on topic, I find it interesting that the solution to all Tasmanias economic woes is ecotourism. Its all well and good to say we don’t need to mine this or log that because eco tourism will get us thru. But where is at the moment whats holding it back? Its not like there are hundreds of thousands of would be tourists sitting at home saying “Well I would have gone to Tassie this summer but due to logging of a valley I had no intention of visting or mining a small area of a large region I am going to boycott Tassie this year.
And the thing that gets my goat the most, is these so called conservationists who still use forest/mining products they just don’t want it done in Tas. Its not like if we don’t produce these products the world will go with out, instead they will be logged in Borneo or mined in Africa where there are no environmental laws/standards to uphold and in all reality those areas are probably just as fitting of heritage listing just at much as Tas.
Hi Silica sand that is used in the manufacture of Hi tech glass for Iphones and Ipods are mined at a small operation near Corrina, hands up who would go without their Iphone to see the Tarkine locked up from mining.

What I strongly believe is that many people would go to Tasmania if they actually knew what's over there... Most don't even know anything about it outside Cradle and Port Arthur, so they sure don't know about mining/logging. As I said it lacks so much publicity compared to an island like Kangaroo Island, and I don't understand that. Nobody gave me an answer, is it because of lack of funds in tourism promoting ? Is it because the Tasmanian government refuses to put more effort in promoting tourism ? It's certainly not for lack of accommodation, outside peak season (Tassie peak season which is only December and January) there's plenty of room.