Up New River to Federation

[ollster]

Good explanation Nik, thank you. I think we've all learnt a great deal.

[Ent]

Great comments Jellybean. The question that can not be answered is the one that rattles around my mind is, would such criticism been still expressed had the attempt succeeded by the sources of such criticism? I.e glowing praise for success rather than a comment being "just understand how lucky you have been to succeed with such a foolhardy adventure". As an accountant for many people the outcome of an investment decision appears to sufficient justification or criticism of the decision making process leading to it. By that if it succeeds then the decision making process was brilliant but if it failed then the decision making process was seriously flawed. Alan Bond and co were all heroes when the numbers looked good despite strong concern by well researched analysts. Try being critical of a successful outcome's flaw decision making process and you will find no great support but then defend a solid decision making process in light of a poor outcome and you are accused of putting spin on the decision. As is best summed up in an old saying, "success has many fathers but failure is an orphan".

Dave (assuming that is your real name) I think many people did have concerns over the trip and in particular in another thread where I expressed my concern that a "force of nature" usurps a "force of will" where I picked up a senses that even had the concerns been expressed "forcefully" they would have fallen on less than fertile soil. I am sure there is a book load of examples of people pushing the envelope and succeeding despite overwhelming concerns of others that might have been called in to play to counter any suggestion that the trip should have been not attempted. JMAC comments on spending more time on escape routes than the planning the trip was an outstanding piece of advice and your answer showed that you had considered escape routes but in retrospect you appear to have under estimated the difficulty in reaching these paths. Was it lack of knowledge and experience with the area or just been caught in the wrong place when it rained? I have no experience of the area so could not offer any constructive advice but know in other threads when expressing concern over people's assumptions that alpine areas of Tasmania have three season walking options it is not pleasant been considered a stick in the mud, a hold out of extreme conservatism, etc, etc.

Dave it is obvious by your writing you are well read and have an interest with psychology and socialogogy plus done a bit of reading on physiology so it should not come as such a surprise that what you have experienced in both the bush and on this site plus from family and friends. As sure as God made little green apples you were going to get criticisms for a failed attempted that required rescue from this site and to say you were not prepared for this does call into question what was you level of preparation and expectation for the other aspects. As for the future I strongly hold to the view "what does not kill you makes you stronger" with the proviso it should make you wiser.

What I am hoping for is a well considered review of the walk along with things that work well and things that worked less than well. Whether it be equipment (I am a gear freak) or psychology or physiological experiences. As for the socialogogy of the website I am sure someone could write a thesis on neurosis based on posts to this site so take adverse comments as a "test of character" and walk tall. Whether you post it or not please do a written review of your decision making process from the walk's inception (motivation as well as planning) to pulling the pin as this should be the greatest tool to do a self review and then go forward. In fact top coaches in Russia select athletes more on their ability to do a self review than on raw talent alone. And congratulations in having the courage to bail out when you did as having your party returned to safety without endangering a ground team in an extensive search is the correct outcome.

Cheers Brett

[ollster]

PICTURES OR IT DIDN'T HAPPEN!!!

Seriously. Pics, please!

PS: Along with the short reply filter thing, can we have a filter that alerts people when they write more than 2-3 paras?

[tasadam]

People want pictures of THIS?
I don't think they're going to see much buttongrass!

Looking forward to a full trip report when you're up to it. Enjoy reflecting on the good times, I'm sure there must have been a few.

[Dave Bremers]

Pics and review coming soon! Haven't even unpacked my bag yet...

Scrub bashing is hard (duh), and granted, I had limited experience in it and the others none. But you will find that it was not the sole factor in our decision (read my post about why we set off the SPOT on page 3). In any case we had done a lot just to get to that point on the river.

For those of you who question why we had not waited it out by the river, we had deliberated on jmac's early advice and came to the conclusion that 21 days food was better than 24. We were 9 days into the trip when the river became too high; this left us three days of waiting that could have been taken. However, rain which was comparitively light by Tasmania standards had in 36hrs raised the water level a meter. We felt at the time (whilst our campsite was being flooded - I could reach out of my tent with a cup into the river) that we could expect at least 36hrs of rain in the 9 days it would take us to get back down, ASSUMING the river dropped to its original level. The flight in the chopper on day 11 revealed New River was just as high as it ever was in the trip. Again, read the post on page 3.

Have visited the doctor, she was uncertain, saying it could be denghue fever (?!), Lyme's disease or just a regular virus. The tick borne diseases have an incubation period of about 7-10 days and have a characteristic full-body rash (which I am yet to develop). Hoping its just a regular virus and the tick in my back was a coincidence

Time to unpack...

Dave (yes that's my real name)

[Trackmaster]

Dont log in for a while and look at the excitement you miss out on.....
Very interesting story!! Glad no one was hurt.
Didnt you say you couldnt find water Dave? though in your last post you said you were camped by a flooded river?? I've never found it too hard to find water on a flooded river

[Ent]

People want pictures of THIS?
I don't think they're going to see much buttongrass!

Looking forward to a full trip report when you're up to it. Enjoy reflecting on the good times, I'm sure there must have been a few.

Hi Tasadam for the Google image of the extraction site. Much appreciated time saver. Dave did you use the same feature with Spot to track the walk on a website as the cannibal run crew did and are you prepared to post a link to it?

Pictures or it did not happen? So life did not exist pre Kodak Oops maybe I might need to explain Kodak to our younger members

Cheers Brett

[alliecat]

Dave,

Firstly, I'm very glad you and your friends are safe and (mostly) well. Good luck with the tick bite - they can be nasty. I had a tick bite that was still itchy after 3 months...

Earlier, you wrote:

We considered all options before we left, but unexpected events threw things out of whack.

I have to say that this is rubbish. Sudden river rises in SW Tas are never unexpected events, they are business-at-usual. This statement alone shows a disturbing over-confidence and lack of knowledge.

You also say:

I had limited experience in it and the others none.

Which means that your decision to undertake this trip was equivalent to somebody deciding to take up mountaineering and making their first trip a summit (attempt) of Everest.

I don't think there is any chance that you and your friends would have succeeded in this trip. Even if you had, it would have been entirely due to good fortune and not due to your (lack of) planning or your (lack of) skills and experience.

In short, you were foolish and you were lucky to survive. I hope that this is an extremely humbling experience for you. I hope that if you continue bushwalking that you do so within your capabilities and work up (slowly) to more "adventurous" walks. I really, truly hope you do that so that we don't find ourselves in the position of reading about your death in the newspapers after another poorly planned and poorly executed "adventure".

Regards,
Alliecat

[ILUVSWTAS]

Bravo TM and Alliecat

[sthughes]

Have visited the doctor, she was uncertain, saying it could be denghue fever (?!), Lyme's disease or just a regular virus.

Lol - Dengue Fever in Tassie, in spring too! I don't think I'd be too concerned about that one

[stepbystep]

I had limited experience in it and the others none.

Says it all I think, I'm planning my trip up the New, in the year 2346(by chopper).

[ILUVSWTAS]

Hmmm I think I may know you Trackmaster.....

[tasadam]

Didnt you say you couldnt find water Dave? though in your last post you said you were camped by a flooded river?? I've never found it too hard to find water on a flooded river

Not a defence, but a clarification. (I do agree up to a point with much of what has been said by others)
He mentions he was beside a flooded river two days before when he was camped by the river.
They were out of water climbing up to / on the ridge.

I think the fact that he admits he had limited off track experience and the others none is humbling enough - they must surely deserve some of the criticism they have received for attempting this particular adventure with such limited experience. Had that admission been made prior to his walk I feel the conversation would have been somewhat more stern prior to.
But they knows that first-hand now.
I have no desire to go there, and I think many of us are the same. We can chalk this one up as a learning experience for everyone, fortunately the consequences were not severe.

I for one learnt something. I made certain assumptions from the start - anyone attempting / considering this walk must surely be experienced at off-track walking, I did not read enough into his request for navigation tips. Both bad assumptions on my part.

There have been other posts on this forum in the past where I have offered concern, such as some lightweight walking topics. Not to have a go at those that try, but to offer fair warning to others that it is specialised gear that you need to know how to use etc blah blah, this is a public forum so anyone can read something like "Overland with 5kg in 36 hours" and think they can... Some of those posts by several people were seen as agressive and turned many lightweight walkers away from this forum.
So when giving advice on this forum, how do you find a balance without being seen as agressive? I think one lesson might be that on a public forum, you need to come along with a certain level of thick skin - though this is a nice forum and personal attacks are a BIG no-no, offence can easily be taken by some, so tip-toeing with words can be a result. Perhaps that was what was going on with early posts in this topic?

I did have a few PM chats with Dave before they went, mostly about food where Dave has good advice.
In the PM's I offered one bit of advice for his walk,
Only bit of advice I can give you about the walk is don't be afraid of defeat, it won't be easy, and better to turn back than not make it, obviously.
Unfortunately they found themselves where retreat wasn't an option, we know the rest, and they are all safe.

Commendations to those in Search & Rescue, a great result, must be pleasing to have a relatively simple extraction rather than dealing with injury or worse. It would be an exciting job, heading in to locate and extract, not knowing what you're going to find.

Dave, good luck with the Tic, they can be nasty. My wife had one on her, um, near her, ah, er, at the top of her leg close to the inside, thought her underwear elastic was pinching all day but turned out to be a tic. Badly swollen and bruised and uncomfortable. And my job to remove...

One question about SPOT, from my limited knowledge on them, I see they have two buttons - a "Help" button that sends a message to those in your contacts to say you need help, and the "911" button, like a PLB / EPIRB response.
Does your SOPT have these options, and if so which did you use? My reason for asking is to clarify how long things took for the rescue with a SPOT and whether that would be the same if it were a PLB.

[tastrax]

Here is a slightly better indication of how far these guys got in their journey before pick up...

[ILUVSWTAS]

I wonder if they thought about going up onto Bobs and taking that track out rather than deliberating about the 12 days (estimated) it would have taken to reach the Eastern Arthurs track....

[tastrax]

Equally impressive is the Google Earth view of the remaining journey...

[Ent]

Hi Tastrax

Thanks for the post but for someone that has no idea of the area is it possible to mark the start point and your best prediction on the path taken? I note that the pick-up point appears to be a highpoint according to the contour lines so achieving this point probably simplified the extraction for the chopper crew but also meant limited options for water assuming I am reading things right.

Cheers Brett

PS wow love the 3D image.

[stu]

Thanks for the images Phil, puts it into perspective.
Have to agree, waiting a few days or more then up to Bobs Knobs et. al. should have been a viable escape route?
Anyways.....

[whynotwalk]

I wonder if they thought about going up onto Bobs ....

Egad! Having looked over from Bobs towards Federation, and all the donga between those two peaks, I doubt anyone would lightly try going "up onto Bobs" from that area.

Their "world of pain" would have grown to a cosmos!

cheers

Peter

[Dave Bremers]

Didnt you say you couldnt find water? though in your last post you said you were camped by a flooded river?? I've never found it too hard to find water on a flooded river

Trackmaster: I'm going to tread a little less lightly than Tasadam and say get up to date with the thread before posting such rubbish.

Dave,

Firstly, I'm very glad you and your friends are safe and (mostly) well. Good luck with the tick bite - they can be nasty. I had a tick bite that was still itchy after 3 months...

I have to say that this is rubbish. Sudden river rises in SW Tas are never unexpected events, they are business-at-usual. ............ Even if you had, it would have been entirely due to good fortune and not due to your (lack of) planning or your (lack of) skills and experience.

Alliecat: Firstly, don't pretend to be my friend if you're going to proceed with a crucifixion. Hint: it comes off rather fake. Secondly get off your high horse and read my page three post again - I think if you actually use your eyes this time you might discover your last post as entirely irrelvant. And how do you know anything about us? "Lack of skills and experience" pah. Granted, not so much experience in Tasmanian bushbashing - which is but one aspect of the trip. Lack of preparation? You have NO IDEA what sort of preparation went into this trip. Your last post shows your willingness to put forth your ENTIRELY UNEDUCATED opinions, something which will get you in a lot of trouble one day. To the bin!

ILUVSWTAS: Such carefully balanced, constructively critical posts (which I very much appreciate) from yourself and now you agree with this? Where do you stand?

People who post like Alliecat: If you do feel like posting something as insulting and uninformed as his (or hers? ah - the anonymity side of the equation...) please realise I don't have time to respond. Simply copy and paste the above paragraph into your word processor and change the name to yours.

Everyone else on this forum: Thanks to those of you who are supportive or who have given constructive criticism, both are honestly appreciated. Also, (and I think obviously) the advice giving on this forum to us was taken as just that - advice. People say they should have been harsher; I say this is not my only source of information so please don't take it on yourselves to either feel partly responsible or to change to a more negative tone for others in future.

Brett we didn't have the so called 'tracking' feature of the SPOT on, as it costs extra to the service fee. However, I have the GE coords of all our campsites which the SPOT sent home each night. What I'll do is I'll make up a trip report with the coords for people, but I won't post it here as I'm sure someone will misintepret it, so I'll let people know when it's done and they can PM me for it. Also, I'll post probably about 10 photos to Panoramio (the GE photo thing) so people can see what it was like at each point of the river. How does that sound?

Tasadam you are right - there are two 'emergency' buttons on the SPOT, called 'Help" and '911'. The 'help' button is a preprogrammable function that allows you to get help from others outside of emergency situations; for instance, we had programmed ours to say "At Farmhouse Ck, please call taxi". You also choose who it sends to, and it sends the message and location. It's only real difference from being a secondary 'OK' button is that it sends messages every 10mins (?) until the unit is switched off or the message is cancelled by the user. The '911' button however is the dedicated 'EPIRB' button - what it does is send a distress message with coords to the SPOT emergency centre in the US, who then alert the local authorities in the area. What the spot centre also does is call the phone numbers provided to make sure it is not an accident. In our case, as I mentioned earlier, we set off the alarm at 9:10am and the chopper came over at 11:40am. They received the message about 10:30 apparently. Which is phenomenal - consider that the three men (copper, paramedic and pilot) have their own jobs, so they had to finish them, drive to the airport, check and pickup gear, get ready and fly for 30mins to get there. Well done I say! As an interesting sidenote, the Hobart Mercury had an internet article on the web only 1.5hrs later - the speed of technology these days!

[jmac]

When Dave called me as part of his research and preparation for the trip, I did try to dissuade him from this route. I queried the group's experience, and Dave listed some good tracked walks he had completed. It was clear that he was very determined to attempt it, so we talked on the phone about the area and options. Although his mind was made up, he was eager for info. Dave had also read the Wild article, in fact he's reproduced a page of it in the first page of this thread. If you look again at that page you can see that there is some pretty clear advice on the expected terrain, including the difficulty of steep gorges and chasms. I felt that the most probable outcome would be an honourable retreat via the SCT after realising that the trip was too hard for their current level of ability and experience. I enjoyed our conversation and Dave seemed like a basically decent bloke. He mentioned that he had sought advice on this forum, which prompted me to check in and post the further advice about escape routes being more likely than the actual attempted route. With hindsight, I probably should have been more blunt about the likelihood of failure and the difficulty of some of the identified escape routes.

The extraction point is north on the Gibraltar Ridge. The group had therefore only just reached the difficult part of the river. They were close in a direct line to an escape over Mt. Bobs. Retreat to the SCT would have been my preferred option from Gibraltar Gorge. Just hard work either way.

J.

[ILUVSWTAS]

Whynotwalk - The whole thing was "Egad" and they got themselves into the position, they could have tried getting themselves out. Im almost positive the terrain they went through to get to the point they were rescued would have been harder than what they would have found on the way to Bobs.

Brem, I was kind of feeling bad for you and your mates so was trying not too sound too harsh, but at the end of the day I do think it was slightly arrogant/ignorant of you to take this misison on. Off track walking in Tasmania is like nowhere else in Australia in my knowledge.

Im really getting over this whole debate though , whats done is done and firstly comes you and your groups safety, and I think everyone here is glad you guys walked out and were not carried out or worse never found (there are lots of missing bodies still in the SW) I think you should just acknowldge to some of us here that you were a bit ambitious and next time you'll be much more considerate about the routes chosen.

[Son of a Beach]

In line with forum rules about keeping all posts polite and friendly, and in respect to breminator and his mates who are still recovering from an exceedingly stressful ordeal (whether self-inflicted and unwise or not), I'd like to remind everyone to please take it easy on Dave and his mates.

Of course this goes both ways, and all parties need to avoid personal attacks and offensive posts, please, even if in response to something that has already offended you. If you are upset by any posts here (or elsewhere) and cannot resolve the issue politely, then please feel free to send me a private message about it, or to report the post(s).

I think that we've covered most of what can be covered here anyhow, so hopefully people won't feel the need to keep hammering their points.

I think we've all learnt a lot about bushwalking, about asking for advice, and about giving advice. Hopefully all of us will do better in all of these respects in future.

[Ent]

Hi Dave

Thanks for the information on the Spot and I agree our emergency services can stand proud given their response that you detailed. Makes me grateful to live in a place with such dedicated professionals. I look forward to any information your compile and hope that of the "Southern Confederate" do not sour you from the site and sharing information to members. Heck anyone one that walks in Tasmania has a reasonable chance of striking a situation of wondering "what an earth was I thinking" whether it be something a simple as the contour lines "lying" or failure to fully consider or understand what the conditions are or could be in relation to their or their walking partners' abilities.

I missed out at around twenty years of age due to work commitments a mid winter trip of the Overland Track with my mates. Sufficient to say they have no enthusiasm for going on a twenty-five year anniversary mid winter walk In fact what got me back into walking was another friend's desire to do the walk as they also missed it so have been working up to getting the right gear and understanding of what winter walks entail. Good news is the gear is right but the bad news is the understanding is there on what it is like trudging in heavy snow , but still want to do it Though my friend appears to have piked it

Hang in there and if you get a chance read Italo Calvino autobiography as mid way through he makes a wonderful observation on how easy it would have been for him to escape the concentration camp according to a six year old. Sort of sums what you might be experiencing now Warning the book contains more than four paragraphs as do most worthwhile reads According to my eye doctor I have just lost my claim for twenty twenty vision in real life due to age, and increasing years also means I have lost my twenty-twenty hindsight as well Maybe age might have the same effect on others

You have had a hell of an experience and been lucky to be enduring no more than just words on a screen, many sensible along with some that tend to convey to me how personally wonderful the writer of such words wants the world to think they are, so kick back relax and enjoy the nice hot showers and a comfortable bed. It is always my person favourite part of a walk At the end of the day it will be your own and your mates honest review of the walk that will make you wiser rather than other peoples rants though I would make sure I have a permanent copy of JMAC comments as the are worthy of re-reading many times. JMAC in the public form was one of the few with courage prepared to express their views beforehand and give sensible specific advice. Also as time goes on the bad experiences will dim and the good ones glow more strongly.

Cheers

[alliecat]

[

I have to say that this is rubbish. Sudden river rises in SW Tas are never unexpected events, they are business-at-usual. ............ Even if you had, it would have been entirely due to good fortune and not due to your (lack of) planning or your (lack of) skills and experience.

Alliecat: Firstly, don't pretend to be my friend if you're going to proceed with a crucifixion. Hint: it comes off rather fake. Secondly get off your high horse and read my page three post again - I think if you actually use your eyes this time you might discover your last post as entirely irrelvant. And how do you know anything about us? "Lack of skills and experience" pah. Granted, not so much experience in Tasmanian bushbashing - which is but one aspect of the trip. Lack of preparation? You have NO IDEA what sort of preparation went into this trip. Your last post shows your willingness to put forth your ENTIRELY UNEDUCATED opinions, something which will get you in a lot of trouble one day. To the bin!

I thought you'd respond like that, given your previous tone. Firstly, I am glad you and your friends made it out. Genuinely glad. I have no wish for you or anyone else to come to harm bushwalking.

But I never said I was your friend. And I didn't crucify you. Your lack of skills, vast over-estimation of your own ability, and normal walking conditions in SW Tas did that. If you only have limited off-track experience and your friends have none then you do not have the skills. The fact that you didn't know how to cope with a rising river (and thought that was "bad luck" and "unexpected") means that your preparation was inadequate. My post was factual and to the point. The fact that you don't like it is a reflection of you, not of the facts.

The only person on a "high horse" here is you - and you have no right to be there. Time for you to climb down, eat a serve of humble pie, and learn the lessons from an experience that you were lucky to survive.

And telling me that my opinions will "get me in trouble one day" is amusing coming from a person whose over-inflated opinion of his own abilities led him into such trouble. Grow up.

Alliecat

[ollster]

I'd like to remind everyone to please take it easy on Dave and his mates.

Of course this goes both ways, and all parties need to avoid personal attacks and offensive posts, please, even if in response to something that has already offended you. If you are upset by any posts here (or elsewhere) and cannot resolve the issue politely, then please feel free to send me a private message about it, or to report the post(s).

Nik, this is what I mean about moderating too much. I'd like to see this discussion reach it's own equilibrium, within the bounds of common descency. The issues being discussed are too important not to make an example out of this kind of situation. Nothing in this thread is breaching any reasonable bounds, given the seriousness of the topic.

For example - I think Alliecat is right, and is using appropriate wording.

That being said, no point kicking the corpse for too long...

[ILUVSWTAS]

That being said, no point kicking the corpse for too long...

Depends how full his pockets are Oll......

[Son of a Beach]

Alliecat - that last "grow up" comment is out of line for these forums, whether the other's post was appropriate or not. Please refrain from that kind of personal dig in future.

[Son of a Beach]

I'd like to remind everyone to please take it easy on Dave and his mates.

Of course this goes both ways, and all parties need to avoid personal attacks and offensive posts, please, even if in response to something that has already offended you. If you are upset by any posts here (or elsewhere) and cannot resolve the issue politely, then please feel free to send me a private message about it, or to report the post(s).

Nik, this is what I mean about moderating too much. I'd like to see this discussion reach it's own equilibrium, within the bounds of common descency. The issues being discussed are too important not to make an example out of this kind of situation. Nothing in this thread is breaching any reasonable bounds, given the seriousness of the topic.

For example - I think Alliecat is right, and is using appropriate wording.

That being said, no point kicking the corpse for too long...

We may need to take this to another topic, but I'm a bit confused as no moderation had occurred in this topic before you posted this. Merely a couple of very tame warnings. Is this really a problem for anyone?

Although I think that some people are lacking in sensitivity in their posts, there's been very little in the way of technical rule breaching that I could moderate here.

[Taurë-rana]

Seems to me that you would only attempt a trip like that if a) You had little previous experience of scrub bashing/weather changes etc in Tasmania, or b) You had the experience and you were completely mad