Tracks, Huts, etc Omitted from Tasmanian Maps [merged]

[Liamy77]

sorry.... just tryin ta keep up with you all (as usual)

[Liamy77]

This trend is also evident on the new 1:250000 NW TAS. map. All vehicle tracks south of Sandy cape have been omitted. Bit rough considering the new Management Plan for the APCA is still only in draft form!

Has anyone here ever seen Yes Minister?? ... just wondering....

[Ent]

This trend is also evident on the new 1:250000 NW TAS. map. All vehicle tracks south of Sandy cape have been omitted. Bit rough considering the new Management Plan for the APCA is still only in draft form!

Has anyone here ever seen Yes Minister?? ... just wondering....

Yes and Yes Prime Minster with my favour quote been by Hacker "I lead by following opinion", so the trick is to make sure it is public opinion not a bureaucrat's opinion.

Cheers Brett

[Nuts]

I have the old set so 'couldn't give a rats', happy to copy them at cost for those (few?) who dont....
You'll just need to prove first that your sound of mind....

[Son of a Beach]

I haven't seen much in the way of examples posted here. Does this mean that the issue has been grossly exaggerated or that it is too difficult to find any clear examples?

[ILUVSWTAS]

Well I have alot of maps, but only one copy. I dont know which tracks are current and which ones have gone.... It's a bit hard to compare unless you have the old and new sets...???

[vagrom]

...being of sound mind, occasssionally ..
This may have been canvased already, unless someone's responded with cordura. Why would they suddenly clear so many of the tracks off the 1:250,000 SW Tas map? Decisions are rarely apolitical in Tasmania; ( the convict strain. None here in Adder's of course."..Another boreing Thursday night ..")
But when you added that they've been rubbed of the NorthWest one as well, I wondered if they'd decided to play fair. If they're being deleted to keep 4x4s out of the bush a bit more, then I guess the answer might be that the old tracks are to be removed from all the maps, period, except for those they choose to leave. Andrew at Tasmap says they do it as instructed.
The old tracks for me indicated the approximate route of things like the Old Port Davey route, on it's way to Pedder. But I suppose if they leave 'em, it's implied that they're maintained.

Could i digress and ask if anyone knows about a movement known as the "Cairnbusters". The old cairns are striking and when you know the history, as you stand there on places like Mt LaPerouse, they help add a historical dimension to the moment. I walked in a Vic club where someone referred to one of the better known members: " So and so's a cairnbuster". It must have come from a period when the battle lines where still fresh. Was the one on LaPerouse partially destroyed for that reason? The one on Mt Hean is untouched. Are there other examples of similar treatment? Was the pile of rocks on Mt Field East once a Sprent or other Cairn?

[ILUVSWTAS]

You are on the money Vagrom. There are cairn busters down here, Purists if you will. But It's not just summit cairns, Trigs and track cairns have been removed from time to time. A surveyor I walk with is not happy about the Trigs coming down as they are still used, RARELY, but occasionally they are.

The cairn on Mt Field East was indeed another sprent/wentworth cairn, MJD has a photo of it in it's former glory. As you say they are a part of history and I find it very sad that people would bring them down just to try to give the mountain a true wilderness feel! WHAT A LOAD OF TRIPE!!

Also the disasembling of cairns along routes in my opinion is dangerous and could lead to someone getting lost. It's just irresponsible.

[Liamy77]

have a close look at my profile photo...

[taswegian]

One reason things get 'left off' maps is that unless they are verified and can be accurately portrayed then they get canned. Its about being responsible or not wanting to get caught out with erroneous data - depending on which side of the fence you sit.
The other reason is if its not shown then people won't try and use it and if its a walking track that is not on a maintenance list, or a 4wd track where the official line is they don't want them used, then this is one way to lose them in history.

As to those who destroy cairns and order taking down trigs I agree that's a very extreme view of hardline conservation.
Nothing can be more 'invasive' than we humans as we wander the high places.
They (cairns and trigs) are part of a vital communication part of our current and past history.
As a surveyor I appreciate the benefit they offer and as a lover of our wonderful bush and mountains they don't bother me.
I wonder what junk those who would want to see them gone leave behind as they travel across our landscape.

[Liamy77]

Personally when it comes to political decision makeing I think Guy Fawkes had the right idea....
I am surprised that there arent more tracks listed here considering the other posts relating to this topic... I imagine ILUVSWTAS has the right reason why.... If we are honest showing or not showing a track will NOT prevent people from entering the bush - just discourage a few. So these areas will still have to be managed! I have heard that Tasmap are not including these tracks "as advised" - but advised by WHO??? Surely they are responsible for their own mapping! And as for providing feedback on the tracks - bit hard when we no longer know they exist! People will still "encroach" on PUBLIC land... just if they aren't encouraged to do it on tracks it will spread the impact over a much wider and more difficult to monitor and manage area, over time without notice perhaps.
There is still the safety issue with accuracy regardless of the track being assumed to be maintained or not... As said before - a hut (in any condition) can only save you if you can find it!
Maybe Tasmap need to take responsibility for their maps and try to seek verification themselves of these tracks without waiting for some anonymous power to "Advise" them to make innaccurate or Half make maps?
I have now bought the entire state maps in 1:25000 and 1:100000 and would be happy to compare mine When they arrive (on computer) to anyone elses older paper maps...
Lets limit the impact and not lose our information and history... and if you are one of the folks removing cairns... - i hope you don't need to get lost for a while before you see that they have their place in the bush.
People have been altering the bush for 50 000 years or so here after all - it just has to be done carefully now is all!

[Nuts]

Yer, There are actually quite a few missing, even just on those where I have the newer as well as old copies. Trouble is that those tracks i can see at a glance that are missing I either know the reasons for their deletion or have heard or read others concerns. No doubt I dont know the full story either so it would make me baulk at just dragging them up for public display.

Thing with cairns... I like the big peak cairns and trigs iv'e seen, really think the 'historic' ones should be left alone. As for what is historic I guess is open to judgement. For navigation I dont really see the point, afterall you should at least know what peak yer on... The wayside markers and small cairns do generally make things quicker but then what about all those left by others who didnt really know the best route at the time. Some places have so many marked 'routes' that they can be just as confusing as no markers at all. Then there is the issue of routes becoming tracks, no spreading the impact once markers start to encourage a track to be formed. Not good for management I can see both sides of the dilemma.

Came up in the other topic Tasmap advised by parks for parks tracks

[Liamy77]

fair enough.... I guess it works out ... if you go, be self reliant and plan for the worst.... maybe worry about it when we've done all the other tracks!

[Nuts]

yer, at the same time i dont like seeing them disappear just to 'make things easier' either. Would be good to be ongoing, maybe even add further tracks as they get more use, send the trackies through some of the areas with multiple markers and mark the best route properly, perhaps take away ones that arent used to much or have better (safer, cheaper to maintain) alternatives? I guess that those really determined will find the old marked tracks and maps, maybe it just keeps the 'tourists' under control

[Son of a Beach]

I've been temporarily lost after following cairns that went the 'wrong' way and then petered out. Thankfully I knew how to use a map and compass and was eventually able to figure out where I was (no GPS). So I'm in two minds about cairns. I think that people should not erect cairns, but I'm not sure about dismantling them. In both cases people should be very sure of what they're doing and be comprehensive about it.

[walkinTas]

I've been temporarily lost after following cairns that went the 'wrong' way and then petered out.

"Temporarily lost"? There is no such thing! Lost: When you do not know where you are, nor the way to where you need to be, nor how to get from one to the other using your own resources. Anything else Nik is just somewhere between mild and severe geographical embarrassment.

[ILUVSWTAS]

I've been temporarily lost after following cairns that went the 'wrong' way and then petered out.

"Temporarily lost"? There is no such thing! Lost: When you do not know where you are, nor the way to where you need to be, nor how to get from one to the other using your own resources. Anything else Nik is just somewhere between mild and severe geographical embarrassment.

I always liked "geographically challenged". Thanks to Martins dad for that quote!

[abowen]

WalkinTas wrote

When you do not know where you are, nor the way to where you need to be, nor how to get from one to the other using your own resources.

Interesting definition of lost. Is lost defined when all three situations come together? Or can lost be any one of these circumstances? I have been in situations where I have known where I am, know where I am going (can see a visible feature to give me direction) but have 'misplaced' the pad or obvious track. I feel lost because it is uncomfortable to be bashing through scrub when I know there is a track nearby. The tempation is to find the track and not move towards the objective.
I have also been confident about where I am going, only to come unstuck by charging along a ridge too far and gone too high. Combine this with a sudden snow front and very little visibility and you definitely start to feel lost. Your mind swings from panic to reminding yourself to remain calm and rationalise your situation. The impulse is to panic and do something.
Be interested in others thoughts on being lost. Maybe this is another thread and maybe this has already been discussed elswhere.
Cheers
Andrew

[walkinTas]

WalkinTas wrote

When you do not know where you are, nor the way to where you need to be, nor how to get from one to the other using your own resources.

Interesting definition of lost. Is lost defined when all three situations come together? Or can lost be any one of these circumstances?

It was just a fun dig at Nik! However, I think if all three come together then you are truly lost. Misplacing the track isn’t really lost. Well not if you know how to get home. Finding the track is always the safest option.

But if you are not sure exactly where you are, and you have no idea how to get home, then you are lost. What you do next is really important.

[corvus]

But if you are not sure exactly where you are, and you have no idea how to get home, then you are lost. What you do next is really important.

Eh!!

[walkinTas]

I didn't/don't have time to go into a lot of details about what people should do when they realise they are lost. But what you do next (after realising you are lost) is very important. Firstly, don't panic! Secondly, sit down and think! Thirdly, don't wander aimlessly about. Fourthly, see if you can work out how to back-track the way you came. Before you go looking for the track, pick a prominent landmark and mark your current spot so you can return to this spot if you can't find the track.

I think this has been discussed somewhere already. I'll try to find the link when I'm not busy.

[eggs]

There were some thoughts on what "lost" means at http://bushwalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1895&p=15913&hilit=+falls+lost#p15913

[Son of a Beach]

Yes, in the particular instance I was referring to, I knew I was no more than 2 or 3 kilometres from the track, and as it turns out I DID have the knowledge and resources to get back to the track. However, at the time, I wasn't precisely sure where I was, and I wasn't absolutely certain that I could find my way back to the track. Ie, I was moderately confident about my situation, but was not confident enough that I didn't still feel a bit lost.

I have been in the same situation a few times before, but still get a bit nervy about it sometimes. For some reason it doesn't seem to trouble me if I'm deliberately navigating off-track, and I'm not as certain about where I am. Odd.

[Nuts]

I have now bought the entire state maps in 1:25000 and 1:100000 and would be happy to compare mine When they arrive (on computer) to anyone elses older paper maps...

Do you mean the set of 250000? The 25000 set is huge. Do you mean compare on computer or is a digital set available?
(I just scoured the tasmaps site without reading this again , but see i may have been confused?)

I know this has been discussed but need a few maps now, what is the best (highest resolution) set/program in digital form for tassie anyone?

[tastrax]

https://www.tasmap.tas.gov.au/static/co ... rCosts.pdf - but remember you are not getting an up to date set. These are scans of existing maps (to the best of my knowledge).

There is also this set but I know nothing about how up to date they are. - http://www.mapsdownunder.com.au/cgi-bin ... 07058.html

For paper maps try here - https://www.tasmap.tas.gov.au/

[Son of a Beach]

https://www.tasmap.tas.gov.au/static/content/RasterCosts.pdf - but remember you are not getting an up to date set. These are scans of existing maps (to the best of my knowledge).

They are also quite expensive, and you need to sign a 12 page contract. It can also take several weeks to actually get anywhere with such a purchase. After months of going through the tedium of trying to purchase maps this way, and then receiving a 12 page contract to sign, I just gave up on the whole process. I don't want to have to employ a lawyer just to be able to use the maps my taxes have already entitled me to (my opinion, of course), and for which I'm willing to pay a reasonable amount for up front.

(yes, this is one of my pet peeves lately, sorry if I harp on about it too much)

There is also this set but I know nothing about how up to date they are. - http://www.mapsdownunder.com.au/cgi-bin ... 07058.html

Those maps look good (if they're up to date), but they cannot be used with anything except the one application for which they're designed to be used. Very inflexible. (Yes, I understand this is to try to avoid copyright problems).

[Nuts]

Hey thanks Phil. I might get get one first to see the quality of the scan. I guess age could be a good thing ; ) for parks coverage...

Ok, I do remember you explaining this previously Nik, you wanted to manipulate the maps in some way, that was to be a drama also? Were you looking at the 1:25000 set ($1100)? I guess the contract covered copyright so we couldn't 'bulk buy' One set....

[Son of a Beach]

I do remember you explaining this previously Nik, you wanted to manipulate the maps in some way, that was to be a drama also? Were you looking at the 1:25000 set ($1100)? I guess the contract covered copyright so we couldn't 'bulk buy' One set....

I didn't end up reading the contract, and just tossed it out, and cancelled my order with Tasmap. The full history of the ordeal is here. All I wanted at that stage was the 1:100k set for the whole of Tasmania. They did virtually accuse me of wanting to distribute it to other people which was complete bollocks, and that may account for perhaps a week of the very long delay in getting anywhere with the attempted (later aborted) purchase. All I wanted was the plain old maps so that I could view them on my own computer, using a standard image viewing application, and on my own iPhone using my own map viewing application which simply reads standard image files.

[Nuts]

Ahh, yes, now i remember, what a drama! Just read through it again, I still dont have a clear understanding of who's who and less of the file types etc. but getting better. Thanks Nik.
I understand that the oziexplorer might also be useful for a lot of aust-wide car navigation devices and processes also, so may be the way to go for me. Lagaro's post and on lost me...
I do find it difficult to understand how a commercially available package can sell you the maps, obviously they originally came from Tasmap, cheaper than files from Tasmap. Im guessing they paid hefty royalties.
(Excuse my ignorance, i'm a late bloomer , spent a lot of time in the wilderness... )

[photohiker]

I do find it difficult to understand how a commercially available package can sell you the maps, obviously they originally came from Tasmap, cheaper than files from Tasmap. Im guessing they paid hefty royalties.

I don't have first hand info on this, so could be wrong...

I suspect that Memory Map (or whichever vendor) signs a distribution and license agreement with TasMap. They might pay some sort of upfront fee (or not) and they commit to paying royalties per unit sale back to TasMap. In this scenario, more sales usually mean a lower per unit royalty, (sliding scale) so the vendor is motivated to sell as many as possible.

The vendors have the systems in place to lock down the data minimising piracy etc, and also to market the map product. These are things that TasMap is not good at, which is probably why they give anyone trying to buy the map data the run-around. No good for people wanting to free the data because it creates a revenue source for TasMap that would be damaged by giving the data away freely.