When does it get dangerous

[DanShell]

Being relatively new to hiking but having grown up in Tasmania I have spent many a freezing night on the highlands I am wondering when does hiking in Tassie get dangerous. Or how or why is it dangerous?

Clearly being under prepared for the cold is one aspect that could kill you but what else is there that makes hiking in the mountains in Tassie dangerous, is the cold weather the only real threat? Obviously falling off a mountain is another one but Im mainly interested in my preparation to cope with bad conditions.

The reason I ask is because I have been updating my gear to hopefully better serve me for Tassie conditions. Just looking at this weekend on Cradle for instance there is going to be some snow fall Friday night and potentially a very cold but sunny weekend, however the wind is going to be up around 70pkh or so Saturday night so the wind chill factor could get down to minus 10 or colder.

Im really keen to test a new tent, especially in high winds and equally keen to test a new quilt in temps that it is rated for so I am thinking this could be perfect conditions to head up there and test some new gear out!

Given the forecast or even the potential for things to turn pear shaped up there really quickly at this time of year do you think I would be taking a risk?

I was thinking of camping at or near Scott-Kilvert so of course I could use the hut as plan B!

I think it is my inexperience that makes heading out on a winters day to spend a night up there more dangerous. I feel as though I have enough of the right clothing, sleeping system and common sense and given that its not that far from the car I think ill be ok, but I don't want to take silly risks and learn too many lessons the hard way.

Thanks for any advise.

[wayno]

comes down to what clothing and gear you have for the conditions and your experience..
hard ice on a mountain slope when you don't have the gear or experience to walk on it is too dangerous...
people function in the outdoors in colder places than tasmania... people can also die in warmer places....
walking around avalanche prone snow slopes you dont recognise the danger on is too dangerous..

[DanShell]

comes down to what clothing and gear you have for the conditions and your experience..
hard ice on a mountain slope when you don't have the gear or experience to walk on it is too dangerous...
people function in the outdoors in colder places than tasmania... people can also die in warmer places....
walking around avalanche prone snow slopes you dont recognise the danger on is too dangerous..

Im reasonably confident I can carry enough clothing for the temperature.
I don't think the tracks I'm on will be susceptible to hard ice or should be ok footing even with some ice but i could be wrong. Slippery exposed roots are usually more of an issue for me
Im trying to gain the experience in colder environments so I guess theres only one way to that....
Hopefully I won't see enough snow to cause an avalanche where I plan my hikes
Thanks for the reply.

[north-north-west]

...I am wondering when does hiking in Tassie get dangerous.

When you forget to pack your brains. Or to use them.

[GPSGuided]

Not familiar with specific local intricacies, but danger can come through many source. Some key issues are,

- Unpredictability
- Harsh weather and terrain
- Poor knowledge and preparation
- Poor decision making
- Difficult access and recovery
- Poor communication

Gear is but only one aspect of risk management.

[wayno]

keep an open mind about the trips you do. be prepared to pull the pin at any stage when you're not happy about safety margins, if you're going to push the envelope. try and do it in small increments and get an idea for what is doable for you.
peoples tolerance to the cold can vary quite a bit.. i've done trips where i'm totally happy and my clothes are covered in rime ice.. and the person next to me is freezing. hypothermia can kill you as much because it dumbs down your brain and you stop making correct decisions or stop making decisions when you need to....

[horsecat]

A few things in Tasmania (much of which has been covered by other forum members)...

The combination of Cold and Wet is one of the worst dangers. Warm/Wet and Cold/Dry are usually manageable. Wind can drop the temperature many degrees as well.

Not knowing when to retreat due to conditions/experience/fitness etc bring people undone. Dehydration / hypothermia can creep up and you can be in serious trouble without realising very quickly. Gradually work your way from easy short walks to the longer, harder ones over a decent period of time so you can learn more about your limitations and to build fitness, muscle memory etc. Being able to identify potential changes in the weather is also important.

Experience, preparation and relying on others too much. I've lost count of the amount of idiots who have asked for something they have forgotten (for some reason matches and lighters seem to be the main culprits, but my last trip to Rodway people there had forgot to bring cups, maps, tents, sufficient clothing plus who knows what else ). Whilst the lack of a coffee mug won't kill, it is an indication of not putting in the proper preparation. I have a standard checklist of items that I take on all hikes plus a list of other specialised items for trips that require extra gear. Also, I always have a firm turn-around time regardless of how far I am from my goal (especially when I am on my own).

Not having adequate communication in the event of an emergency (I always carry my PLB regardless). A couple years ago I had a close encounter with a big tiger snake when I was on my own, four hours from the car. The PLB would have been my only hope if that bugger had tagged me as there was no phone reception or anyone around.

As GPSGuided said, gear is only one aspect, and really I think people put too much emphasis into it thinking it will negate their lack of experience etc. Plan and prepare before any walk and you will be far better off, plus you will learn a lot and enjoy the it much more. Remember that all these new fabrics and designs haven't been around forever and people managed quite well before they were available (as they relied more on their experience rather than a $600 Gore Tex jacket...tweed seemed just fine ) That said, hikers (including me) are gear freaks and the quality and lightness are certainly advantages. It does makes sense to have the best quality gear, just know how to utilise it properly and don't think you can do anything anytime just because you have some new wonder item.

Obviously you should always carry safety items such as maps, compass, PLB, etc, but make sure you know how to use them.

There's more, but that's a good start. Oh, and NNW made a very true remark about people forgetting their brains or to use them

[Nuts]

All good stuff. DanShell over Hansons & the track down to SKH can be icey in places,especially if you leave early. That's about all, without a big snow cover it's easy enough.

If you have good gear (a warm bag) and plan to camp near the hut then this sounds like a good intro.
Pretty sheltered down there though... so you may not get to test much besides- cold. I would have thought a similar plan next to a more exposed hut, thinking of some good ones in your local area.. may give more confidence?

[GPSGuided]

Forgot to add... Exit Strategy! For every point along the way and every possible condition. So it's not a question of when does it get dangerous but danger avoidance.

[tigercat]

Another hazard in high winds is tree fall, no gear will prevent this, just don't go to the forested high places with a high wind forecast.

[Giddy_up]

Once you step out the front gate. The risks of driving to your destination severely out weight any thing you might do whilst walking. Having said this, poor decision making must rate a close second. I think more bad than good has come from, "lets push on were almost there" or "you'll be right" or "it won't last long".

Plan for the worst.............. The best have done this and are not with us today!!!!!!!

[DanShell]

Thanks very much for the replies theres certainly some good points for me to consider.

Horsecat thanks for taking the time to reply in such detail.
I think being cold AND wet is a good one and I'm certain its a popular one that catches people out. We always take a spare set of dry clothes and thermals but having been caught in some pretty soggy conditions in the past I can relate to getting wet when we didn't really expect it. We had no choice but to walk in at times knee deep water so of course our feet were wet and seeing as it was snowing they were cold as well. We were only about 10 kays from the car and the weather was looking like closing in very bad so we pushed on.
But it raises a point that had we decided to sit the weather out obviously we would have put our dry clothes on but what do people do on multi day walks.....do they do what we do and put our damp gear back on and save our dry clothing?

I think the point of knowing potential changes in the weather is important also. How do we know this? Is it just local experience? Is it as obvious as seeing the clouds roll in, or perhaps all that and some? Is there a good weather guide online that I can read that may educate me better on reading weather patterns?

As for preparation I am confident we are very well prepared. We use a check list also and so far we haven't been caught out with out at least the essentials. Sure we could always improve our gear but we are starting to get it close to being how we would like it. We will buy some better clothing as time goes on but for now we are ok.

When you say you always have a firm turn around time, are you talking about if the weather turns bad or you haven't made it as far as you had hoped for the day or something? My way of thinking is if I am aiming to get to a destination and I am more than 50% of the way there then the destination is obviously closer if the weather turns bad??

I don't have a PLB. I dont walk on my own if that makes a difference but I admit I at times walk with just my son or just my wife so if things went bad Im not sure how comfortable I would be in having one of them walk out on their own. I am thinking ALOT of people would be doing overnight, day or multi day walks for that matter in Tassie without a PLB??

As I touched on, our gear is not the best and we are always trying to improve it. We don't use the latest $600 goretex jackets but we use cheaper second hand goretex jackets LOL Seriously though I am confident we are water proof when need be, and warm enough when need be with what we have. Any improvements we make in clothing will come in the way of weight saving vs warmth vs pack size.....EG $$$$$$$

I find it interesting the comment about the map and compass (and PLB which I already touched on) we do always carry a map of an area we are walking and we have one of those $1 whistles with a compass LOL But we carry a GPS as well. However we were on a walk a little while ago where we lost the track several times due to snow coverage and simply there was no defined pad and at times there were several potential pads that lead to no where but while I had the GPS in hand I felt confident we would make our way back to the well worn track easy enough.
BUT, had our GPS failed then I wasn't so sure the map and compass would help me Yes I knew roughly where we were on the map at all times and yes I could use the compass to head in the general direction we would have needed to go but wow theres a lot of room for error in this method. Am I missing something here? Had I needed to use the compass I pretty much would have had to bush bash in a general direction, and of course this wouldn't have been any guarantee that I would have found where I need to go.
My only saving grace would have been that I could have always back tracked out the way I came, but lets assume for a second I lost the pad, couldn't find it again, I was now in the bush and my GPS had failed.........we may have been in trouble and Id suggest so would a lot of people in the same circumstance. Any advice here??

As for leaving brains behind, Id like to think thats not the case the for me (maybe some of my comments may suggest otherwise to an experienced walker LOL)....but Im guessing many people who have got into trouble would have said the same thing


Nuts, thanks yes we agree that SK Hut is a good one to pop up and have a look thats not getting too far away. I haven't been right up the top since the early 80's at a school camp so I am keen to do more up there as an overnighter or two nighters and hopefully next year we want to try and find the time to walk the whole OLT.
This is all a part of building up to it I guess, even though we won't do the OLT at this time of year.

GPS, I think I touched on exit strategy in the sense that I won't put myself in a position where I can't at least back track out of the bush, but as I already suggested there could be the possibility of getting lost.

Once again thanks for the replies gents, it doesn't look like we will be heading up there this weekend but we will be as soon as we get the opportunity, one of the joys of living so close

[GPSGuided]

Good consideration there Danny. I do like to think through it all and don't like to take risks. Quite simply at my phase of life, I carry more responsibilities than just to myself. The map and compass question is an interesting one and same here, I've been caught out by a malfunctioning GPS in the past (blame my firmware tinkering and not properly testing it). In a "lost" situation, compass and map helps a great deal. Often it's a case of staying calm (easy to get out of the comfort zone when one loses the trail and loses that exactness in one's position), think through and make use of the 'Hand rail', 'Back stop' and 'Aiming off' navigational techniques to find one's way back. Check out the various Youtube videos on navigation to get a quick overview. It may require a bit of bushbashing and delay, but as 'The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy' advised - Don't Panic! Then there's always that backup iPhone GPS.

[tibboh]

I don't have a GPS (yet), so rely on map and compass entirely. I have thought alot about how I will operate once I do enter the current century though. I think as someone above said....be prepared for the worst. Even though your GPS probably won't fail, attack the walk assuming it will at some point. Always know exactly where you are on the real map especially in unfamiliar areas and you reduce your chances of getting lost significantly. If you don't know where you are it makes finding you in an emergency quite difficult in some conditions. Think about spending your next bushwalking dollars on a PLB.
You can be the most experienced walker alive but if you are walking with a child or inexperienced person, they may have trouble getting help if you come unstuck.

PS. Don't assume all posters are 'gents'

[DanShell]

PS. Don't assume all posters are 'gents'

When you say that do you mean it may be Ladies and Gents or that not all the males are gentlemen?

Thanks again for the replies. A fellow I work with once gave me a book all about mapping and he told me to read it and understand it, something about triangles or something, anyway fair to say I didn't read it!! I may have to borrow it again.

[tibboh]

PS. Don't assume all posters are 'gents'

When you say that do you mean it may be Ladies and Gents or that not all the males are gentlemen?

to the latter.
I was hinting at the former. One of the posters in this thread is not a gent. Looking at your username and avatar you're both

[Strider]

One of the posters in this thread is not a gent.

I always had my suspicions about Wayno!

[north-north-west]

One of the posters in this thread is not a gent.

Well, I sure as hell ain't no 'Lady', although I can be gentlemanly sometimes . . .

[horsecat]

I’ve been away from the computer for a bit but I can see that some of your questions regarding the GPS, compass etc have been answered by the others, so I won’t rehash that apart from saying that all were correct. It may be a good exercise to download a bit off the web about using a map and compass. Go out somewhere nearby and practice the methods. Orienteering might be an idea? You can even practice mapping and GPS from the comfort of home. The GPS in a phone is handy but remember that the cold can drain a phone battery extremely quick so that should be your last resort after the dedicated GPS, compass / map. Some cameras have them too, but again this would be a last resort. But buy a PLB, it doesn’t matter if you are solo or in a group of ten (not one for each person though). Take it on all walks, even the seemingly safe ones; who knows you may need to assist another walker from another group. “Expect the worst, hope for the best”.

In regards to the turn-around time, that mostly applies to day walks. As you say if the weather turns bad you may be closer to your goal, but on a day walk that then extends your time back to the safety of the car if you press on. Also, just because you are (perhaps) 50% there doesn’t mean it will take the same time to do the last 50% (it may be steeper, slippery, exposed, hard to navigate, reduced visibility, plus exhaustion can all play a part). On winter day hikes, with the sun setting around 4.30pm, I usually have a turn-around time of 2pm thus giving me ample time to retreat and account for any small issues which may arise on the way back, but of course this will depend on the length of the hike being undertaken. But as a rule if it should take say an hour back to the car, I’ll account for 2 or so hours. If the weather is looking nasty on a day trip I’ll happily pull the pin as I lug a full frame SLR around so I want to enjoy the views on offer. But more importantly from a safety point it is essential to realise that the weather is only going getting worse and to retreat. I believe a turn-around time is essential. For instance, you might be half an hour from your goal at your intended turn-around time, but you keep going (summit fever). That’s an hour return plus a while lingering on the summit (where time goes extremely fast) so you may not be back to your original turn-around position for 1 ½ - 2 hours after you originally intended to retreat. Then you have to get back to the car. I know of people who have turned around twenty vertical metres from the summit of Everest; I also know of others who didn’t and they’re still there… For multi day walks it is important to understand that if the weather is bad then it may be worth waiting it out before continuing on to the next hut / campsite and be aware if there are places you can pitch a tent halfway if things are looking nasty. Sometimes on multi day walks you simply get caught out and just have to keep pressing on though.

Further to your question about the weather and knowing what is in store, firstly check the weather forecasts from a reliable source (there are several sites on the web and I think Icefest may have put a link up to one a little while ago). See what weather is on its way and the direction and be prepared for this to arrive earlier or later than originally forecast. Also look at changes in clouds, wind direction etc when on your hike. Large cloud banks building up can be an indication, wispy clouds usually mean strong winds are approaching, southerly winds bring coldness. I use a Sunto watch which has a barometer, any quick drop in pressure means a low is approaching, thus a potential for bad weather – but these are not essential. Somewhere like Mt Ironstone in a whiteout mist can be problematic, that’s where your mapping comes into play if you do happen to get caught out (I’d recommend the GPS here though as the rocks make the compass go mental).

Wet, cold clothes are awful. Prevention is the key. Try to use a jacket and over-pants if possible. If it means keeping your clothes dry then it may be wise to strip off the pants and boots to cross a flooded section. Walking in shorts or zip-offs if it’s raining is useful. Always keep a dry set of camp-clothes to change into and sleep in though. If you sleep in damp clothes you are asking for big trouble. Take any opportunity when the sun is out to dry any damp clothes. You may be able to dry damp socks over your gas stove (I defrosted my boots the other morning very quickly). Keep the camp clothes (and your sleeping bag) in a sturdy dry-cell – I think I recall you’ve been putting your own together. An extra pair of socks can be handy, plus if you need you can use them for mittens.
The “leaving you brains at home” wasn’t aimed at you mate, I just liked NNW’s comment.

[wayno]

its a bit of a black art managing clothing layers staying warm enough but not get too hot on the move that you sweat too much, sweat filled clothes can rob you of too much warmth... with time you'll get a hang for what layers to wear for what conditions and terrain you're in....

[horsecat]

Very true Wayno. I prefer to start off a bit cold as I soon warm up. A lot of people begin a hike with too many clothes on, then have to stop, change and re-pack after only ten minutes. Or they leave them on, cook and sweat, making them cold when they stop for a break. I've seen people with their sweat frozen to their backs from that . I mostly walk in a very thin quick-dry polyester top regardless of the temperature, unless there's a cold wind. Layer up with a warm top when you stop instead

[tigercat]

who is the mysterious lady?

[GPSGuided]

A question on the use of barometer, as on a Garmin GPS unit or similarly equipped watch.

How does one use the barometric functionality to assess the barometric weather trend when one is walking through elevation changes? I am sure it can be interpreted with a few neurons but any tips on the practical application? Going through some rough numbers, 1000m elevation change equates to around 12kPa while common atmospheric pressure variation (high and low weather cells) floats b/n 980-1050mBar i.e. Range of 70mBar or 7kPa. As such, hills of decent size (500m and up) would lead to a significant barometric change that would eclipse any weather based barometric changes. Thoughts?

PS. I hate thinking through pressures. There are way too many different units being used out there. Very confusing. SI unit for air pressure is hectopascal = mBar.

[Bodysurfer]

I think that unless you're very experienced the best maxim is "when in doubt, turn around/find a place to camp" unless there is no real alternative to pressing on. I have only got myself into two truly dangerous situations, and they both related to poor decisions related to 1) incipient hypothermia (Baw Baw Plateau) and 2) dehydration (Central Australia). In the first instance I should have stopped, camped and got warm. In the second I should have turned around much earlier than I eventually did. Much better to make the call early and live to fight another day. Of course, the more hypothermic/dehydrated you get, the harder it is to make good decisions.

[Mechanic-AL]

Hi Danshell

For me, regardless of the weather, bushwalking in Tassie becomes dangerous; when a large noisy group invades my peaceful little campsite.
when I have consumed too many freeze dried curries and I can't find my torch, dunny paper or the spade in the middle of the night ( and it raining!)
when I step into a 100cm deep bog on my 70cm long legs. ( especially in the middle of the night and its raining and I'm trying to deal with the afore mentioned predicament !)
when I spend too much time gazing at my surroundings and not enough time looking at the tree roots I am trying to negotiate.
when someone has nicked the last Tim Tam in the packet ( doesn't need to be in the bush for this one to get particularly nasty ).

I hope you have/had an enjoyable winter expedition to Scott/Kilvert and back and that it didn't get dangerous.

AL

[horsecat]

Yep GPSGuided, you're correct with the barometric weather trend in relation to altitude gain/loss thingy. But most of the ascents in Tassi aren't huge and don't take too long so not a real problem. Handy for overnighters when deciding weather to stay for that extra night etc. It's not something I utilise much when on the move but is interesting to have at camp or resting when you can get an indication if things are changing with the little graph display etc. I normally wouldn't have bothered with a barometer but it's integral for the altimeter in the watch, which is what I needed. I was quite high up a few years back and watched the altitude reading go flying up before my eyes even though I was lying in a tent. It was due to a big storm moving in which dropped the air pressure thus altering the height reading (a nice way to pick up a few hundred metres ). We didn't know of any aproaching weather prior to that so it was a nice little tool to have.

[GPSGuided]

Thanks. Yes, that makes sense. A monitored reference when one is at a location. As such, the barometer in the GPS may not be practical for the purpose as the unit will chew up too much battery power if left on. Handy on a watch.

[DanShell]

Thanks to everyone for the replies, the info I have received is perfect and believe it or not may well save someones life one day (lets hope Im never in that situation!)

Now that I have spent some time educating myself on some basic orienteering skills I am almost frightened at what could have happened even on the limited hikes we have already been on had I got lost! So this thread has given me two very valuable lessons, the first being the basic orienteering skills and the second being that I really should carry a PLB just in case all else fails.

I would take a guess and suggest there are a large percentage of people like me hiking around this country that have no idea how to get themselves out of trouble using their map and a compass...or are even carrying a map and compass!

We spend so much time and effort researching and buying the right 'gear' to keep us comfortable and safe in bad conditions where as what we should be doing before anything else is learning some basic map navigation skills first as the priority. It only takes a very short period of time learn enough of the basics that will pretty much get you out of a situation using your map and compass.
And then theres a PLB, i admit I always just thought Id never need one! And to be honest a lot of the walks we have done are mainstream, well used and help will walk along at any minute but we have also done some walks where that is certainly not the case so looking at the potential for things to go wrong and where that may have left us makes me realise I was stupid for not carrying a PLB.

SO the next obvious questions are about MORE gear LOL

Are those elcheapo orienteering/map compass's you can buy on ebay ok??
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/New-Orientee ... b95&_uhb=1
I have a compass on a whistle but now I have extra mapping skills I want a proper compass

Also in regards to the PLB's, ebay is full of them. Is there a particular type or model I should be looking at?

Once again I really do appreciate the advice I have been given here. Its amazing how a few things that are so simple can educate so much.

[wayno]

aparently theres a difference in compasses for northern and southern hemisphere use. so see whre its being sourced from

article here on how to layer for the seasons.

http://www.outdoorgearlab.com/a/11070/H ... ach-Season

[wayno]

safest to buy a plb locally, they are coded for country of most likely use and should be recoded if you're buying from overseas. to avoid having to do that , just buy local. plb's will still work internationally.
some countries may fine you for not registering your plb, in NZ you're technically liable for a very hefty fine if you use it and its not registered...
if you want longevity of use make sure that the plb can have its battery replaced the GME branded ones cant have their batteries replaced...,
as or what to buy, its hard to tell.. plb's are generally pretty reliable. more reliable than gps tracking devices for summoning a rescue.
i did debate whether this model could be accidentally set off of the flap over the signal button was pushed back accidentally and pressure put on the button...
http://www.oceansignal.com/product.php?id=22

plb's have been discussed on here at length before if you want to search the forum