Social Media promotes camping in the Cradle Mt Day Use area?

[bushwalker zane]

Hello all!

This seems to be a more and more common occurrence with the booming popularity of our little island; social media platforms promoting doing the wrong thing in our national parks and world heritage area. I've seen a few photos on Instagram of people setting up their tent in plainly obvious areas around Dove Lake all for a vestibule shot of Cradle. Yes it looks nice and it's sure to gain a lot of internet popularity points (likes); and it's highly unlikely that they actually camped there, but it does set a precedent. I recently saw one such photo, commented on the picture, and emailed the head ranger at Cradle about it. The guy who took the photo blocked me from looking at his page, but the photo has been deleted since.

So I was surprised when I saw a video this morning by GoPro promoting the same thing! Here's the video, at the 44 second mark there's a open vestibule and cradle mountain view. Looks like they set up near the Mount Campbell turn-off. I'll attach a screen shot, too.

Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdG7EzSwhVs

Any thoughts on this? Has anyone else seen an increase in poor behavior in our parks on social media?

[L_Cham_67]

Drone footage is the big one I see that really annoys me.

I saw some drone footage of dove lake on Instagram a while back and politely asked if they had permission to film there. I was then blocked haha.

That's just one example though, there's unfortunately a lot out there. Sure the footage looks great, but it shouldn't have to come at the expense of other people's experience, along with the probable impacts on birdlife and more.

[benoloughlin]

Unfortunately this is the result of Tasmania becoming a tourism hot spot. Working up at Cradle you do see all sorts of bad behaviour.
There is a certain element within the visitor population that doesn't give a *&%$#! about the consequences their on the integrity of the Park, wildlife or on other visitors experiences.

[bushwalker zane]

Drone footage is the big one I see that really annoys me.

I agree. I saw many drones out on Cape Hauy this summer, and I find them to be super obnoxious.

Unfortunately this is the result of Tasmania becoming a tourism hot spot. Working up at Cradle you do see all sorts of bad behaviour.
There is a certain element within the visitor population that doesn't give a *&%$#! about the consequences their on the integrity of the Park, wildlife or on other visitors experiences.

Absolutely.

[lefroy]

I pack a slingshot when I go camping for this reason, not sure if I'd take it walking as Most walkers would feel the same about them.
Sitting at a campsite with a drone overhead is almost the rudest thing I have ever experienced!

[Nuts]

The service could deploy a drone to check the day walk area.. but does the operator need overtime payment or give an all clear at knock -off o'clock?
They could better define the 'Day' area but then give a green light to camping right next to the line.

I'm not a rules nazi but also find this sort of thing grating as would be a certain group of people/personality types choosing to spit in the street or one of any number of social expectations that have reason and law but for which we cant rely on policing.

Rules- breaking may even be part of the great escape of bushwalking. They could do the right thing in the bush, then go and spit on street somewhere.. not that the piccies would be as popular.

[north-north-west]

The service could deploy a drone to check the day walk area.. but does the operator need overtime payment or give an all clear at knock -off o'clock?

The "cure" would be worse than the disease.

They could better define the 'Day' area...

The daywalk area is well defined so far as the Overland is concerned. North of Watefall. Apart from emergency situations, you don't overnight anywhere between the Visitors Centre and Waterfall Valley. How hard is that to comprehend? Only confusion would be areas west of the road and north of Ronny, such as Pencil Pine Track, Hounslow Heath etc.

[Nuts]

Here's a map version of CM 'day walk' area:

Screen Shot 2019-06-17 at 11.38.32 am.png (697.34 KiB) Viewed 24926 times

[bushwalker zane]

Interestingly enough, I left a comment on the video I mentioned in the OP, and it looks as though GoPro have deleted it!

[weetbix456]

Classic hey. I was guiding down the Tasman Peninsula this summer also - and had a tour guide at Cape Raoul using a drone to get individual photos for his clients of them out at the seal lookout! I asked him to bring it down and got booed by his group in reply They played the "don't understand english" card, but they were also fully aware they were doing the wrong thing. I'm assuming it was sold to their clients as a kind of market advantage tack on - or bonus inclusion. Pretty bad.

Also, I've seen/heard of a few people using Kitchen Hut and the new emergency "bubble" as overnight stopovers for photographers.

[benoloughlin]

Classic hey. I was guiding down the Tasman Peninsula this summer also - and had a tour guide at Cape Raoul using a drone to get individual photos for his clients of them out at the seal lookout! I asked him to bring it down and got booed by his group in reply They played the "don't understand english" card, but they were also fully aware they were doing the wrong thing. I'm assuming it was sold to their clients as a kind of market advantage tack on - or bonus inclusion. Pretty bad.

If you know who the guide/company is - report them to Parks. Their accreditation is dependent on them adhering to terms and conditions and laws.
I was down at Dove Lake at dawn about 18 months ago getting photos and a guy rocked up (I was down at the end of the slipway taking photos). He told me that he camped overnight in his camper in the car park and told me that he was going to take some photos around near the boatshed. Ten minutes later two drones went up. The sound in that natural amphitheatre was incredible. I was so pissed off that when I went back to the car and there was one of the rangers attending to the restrooms and let him know about the guy with the two drones. I caught up with the ranger later who informed me that the commercial photographer/drone operator was fined.

Also, I've seen/heard of a few people using Kitchen Hut and the new emergency "bubble" as overnight stopovers for photographers.

Certainly, I've heard of some people camping up on Marion's Lookout overnight or close by to get dawn shots. Most photographers I've talked to walk up before dawn using their head-torches. I'
The other thing to do is when you see anything going on like overnight camping where people shouldn't be - get in touch with Parks and let them know what's going on.

[benoloughlin]

Interestingly enough, I left a comment on the video I mentioned in the OP, and it looks as though GoPro have deleted it!

Well done!

[weetbix456]

Yea I tried to find out which company they worked for but as I said - they pretended not to (or actually didn’t) understand a word I said...! It’s also one of those situations too where it’s not always obvious who is controlling the drone when you are in a busy area (eg. Dove Lake). Not sure how the guilty would go if you started taking a video of them! Could get heated, but it’s sure come to that

[Warin]

Well thanks to Google-backed delivery drone trial in Canberra, drone noise is now getting a federal government review...

Cross your fingers and hope.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-06-18/ ... l/11219808

[doogs]

It's a really hard one for people to understand and for parks to police. The majority of people, Tasmanians included, wouldn't have a clue about these rules and probably don't spend the time to read the signs on entry to the park. We have a unique parks system in Tasmania which promotes the wilderness values to a greater degree than many other jurisdictions (unfortunately there are many around trying to undermine this at present for the sake of private business ventures). This makes it really hard for the parks staff as they just don't have the resources to educate everyone who enters the park on why these rules are in place. Even if they did then there would be those who just ignored it for the sake of gaining a popularity on social media. Even our walking clubs are guilty of ignoring advice; I've seen/heard of groups of more than twice the recommended numbers of bushwalkers being led into remote areas by the author of the paper that suggested the size limits to protect these regions from the degradation that comes with large numbers passing through. If our seasoned leaders of bushwalking clubs are failing to respect the wilderness then how can we expect to the tourists who are only visiting to be respectful? Education should start locally and then those members of clubs can politely help to enforce the rules where needed.

[Al M]

If the Parks Authority cannot deal with the drone disturbance it is also possible to complain to the the Civil Aviation Safety Authority website https://www.infrastructure.gov.au/aviat ... rones.aspx

Depending on the site location and which agency has control, another option is to complain to your State agency or local shire to have it investigated under EPA noise regulations which may be able to deal with the situation. This is more the case outside a national park.

Under most State EPA noise laws and sound level limits it would be possible for a regulator to take action if it’s affecting someone’s amenity who is residing in a house, camping or other activity. For example, most State noise laws have a noise limit for noisy equipment set at around background noise or 5 dB(A) above that. Typical background noise in a parks or a low density residential scenario without intermittent traffic, bird squawks at the very moment of drone sound measurement, strong wind through trees and similar interfering noise will be very low around 30 - 40 dB(A). This noise level is known as the “natural quiet” simply being the value of enjoying the naturally quiet conservation areas that people come to expect.

Subjectively, hearing something like a drone noise with high pitch tone will easily be above that limit, depending on distance it could be 50dB(A)+ and a difference of 10dB(A) is about twice the subjective loudness compared to when the drone noise was not occurring. Technically there are two main issues why drone noise is very annoying to the human ear. Firstly, the general loudness and secondly the whine or pitch is known as tonality that is particularly annoying to the human ear and many State EPA noise regulations apply a penalty factor of 5dB when this is present making the final noise measurement greater.

In summary the drone noise is significantly impacting on the natural quiet enjoyment of that environment which people have come to expect and enjoy by as much as twice the overall loudness and is a significant annoyance that affects amenity, health and stress levels and can be subject to a noise a Infringement fine, seizure of the drone and prosecution of several thousand dollars plus court costs.

Community noise inspectors who are unfamiliar dealing with complaints will need to be attuned to tackling this type of new noise offence and be prepared to take action

[TentPeg]

So apart from the obvious reason of making us use commercial overnight facilities what is wrong with overnight camping on Cradle or Barn Bluff?

[Mark F]

So apart from the obvious reason of making us use commercial overnight facilities what is wrong with overnight camping on Cradle or Barn Bluff?

Yes it should be obvious but obviously it escapes you.

1. It is a very high use area as well as a quite fragile environment - it needs careful management.
2. There are NON-commercial camping opportunities at Waterfall Valley and around Scott Kilvert Hut if you want to camp in the area.
3. There are NO commercial overnight facilities once away from Dove Lake/Walheim unless you plan to walk to Lake St Claire other than the Scout Hut.

[TentPeg]

Thanks Mark
It doesn't escape me.
1. It it a high use and 'sensitive' area and I would camp on rock overnight.
2. Waterfall and other huts are not on the summit of Cradle or Barns.
3. I'm not after a commercial overnight facility.

So again - why should I be precluded from summit camping?

[Mark F]

There are rules set up for specific reasons. If you want to break the rules then it is best just to quietly do want you want to do and stoically bear any negative outcomes - don't advertise - it only encourages others and may lead to more restrictive rules and increased policing in the future.

You misconstrue my point 3 comment. Your op suggests that the no camping rule was designed to force you into using commercial facilities. My point is that this is not correct as there basically are no commercial facilities in the area.

[TentPeg]

Thanks Mark.
There are rules. But maybe they need some tweaking every now and then. I'm not interested in breaking rules. I am questioning whether the rules in place are valid - and clearly I don't think that the current blanket rules aimed at the mass market cater for those not in the mass market.

So I continue with the question - why an I precluded from summit camping.

[MrWalker]

clearly I don't think that the current blanket rules aimed at the mass market cater for those not in the mass market.
So I continue with the question - why an I precluded from summit camping.

Because if you do it and anyone else notices, then within a year everybody will want an Instagram photo taken from Cradle Mt at sunrise, so every morning there will be a row of bright coloured tents all along the Cradle Mt ridge-line.
Do we really want that to happen?

[benoloughlin]

clearly I don't think that the current blanket rules aimed at the mass market cater for those not in the mass market.
So I continue with the question - why an I precluded from summit camping.

Because if you do it and anyone else notices, then within a year everybody will want an Instagram photo taken from Cradle Mt at sunrise, so every morning there will be a row of bright coloured tents all along the Cradle Mt ridge-line.
Do we really want that to happen?

During a thunderstorm it would be Darwinism at its best!

[bushwalker zane]

Because if you do it and anyone else notices, then within a year everybody will want an Instagram photo taken from Cradle Mt at sunrise, so every morning there will be a row of bright coloured tents all along the Cradle Mt ridge-line.
Do we really want that to happen?

This.

I am sure that many people on this forum have camped in the day use area and not mentioned it, and probably camped on durable surfaces and all that. However, due to nature of social media breeding the fear of missing out, it would only go to cause further issue by posting gratuitous tent photos on social media. When people see other people doing something, they think it's a free ticket to do the same. However, many people wouldn't know the significance on a cushion plant, and shove a tent peg straight into one.

A little while ago my partner and I were off for a day walk around the cradle area, and we came down via Lake Wilks. It was a rough day, and had been a stormy night. We found a shredded tent, half pitched right next to the lake and semi-caught in the snow gums. The campsite was replete with rubbish and a steaming huge poop right next to the tent. We took photos, cleaned it all up, and took it back to the parks centre. The guy who left it all there had bailed in the wee hours, caught the first bus back to the parks centre, told the rangers that he'd left his tent there and supplied them with his address and phone number to let him know if his stuff got recovered. Needless to say he received a fine.

This is just one example of people not respecting the area. I know there would be countless more. For the majority, is NO CAMPING in the day use area applicable? Absolutely yes.

[TentPeg]

Thanks all.

I am not on Instragram and rarely take photos but I know people who do and they seem to be nice people generally. I wouldn't put them in some generic category. I also don't see something generically wrong with wanting to take a special photo early in the morning or late at night. I don't see any difference between being in a place and taking a photo and not sharing it or sharing it with the world at large. I don't have anything against those that might want to do this activity as long as they do it appropriately. I might even consider it better that they get to where they want to be in daylight rather than bumbling around after dark with all the implications of doing so.

The rules as they currently exist basically preclude this activity so that individuals have to break the rules and keep it quiet. Sharing their photos clearly provides evidence that they have broken the current blanket rules.

My view is that the rules need to be changed. There should be some process where those who want to undertake this activity can do so with the knowledge of Parks. If that were the case there could be a more stringent set of rules or codes for these individuals to follow in terms of where and how they set up their shelters etc. That opens up a dual penalty process for the activity for those that don't ask for permission and those who don't follow the conditions of their 'permit'.

That seems pretty simple to me.

[Mark F]

My view is that the rules need to be changed. There should be some process where those who want to undertake this activity can do so with the knowledge of Parks. If that were the case there could be a more stringent set of rules or codes for these individuals to follow in terms of where and how they set up their shelters etc. That opens up a dual penalty process for the activity for those that don't ask for permission and those who don't follow the conditions of their 'permit'.

Pure exceptionalism - I'm special -- the rules either don't apply or should be changed to allow me to do what I want while keeping the "mass market" at a safe distance. If you feel so strongly about this write to Parks with your request. Perhaps Parks could issue permits for summit camping - a $100 charge for summit camping privileges - just book your night on your chosen summit and hope it is not cloudy the next morning.

[TentPeg]

Thanks Mark
As I noted above - I don't take photos much so its not a matter of what I want and I don't feel strongly about this.
I'm just commenting on a forum issue.
It still seems to me that the blanket approach to camping in the day use area does not address some needs and that some accommodation for those wanting to do something different should be made. Still seems simple to me.

[South_Aussie_Hiker]

The reason is, Tentpeg, that rules have to be made for the lowest common idiot - that’s how societies work.

Imagine a scenario where Valentino Rossi is allowed to ride his motorbike around the streets without a speed limit. He could, being a professional bike rider, ride around quite safely at a few hundred kilometres an hour on highways, and double the normal speed limit on smaller roads - because he’s a professional, with training, who understands his own limits and the limits of his bike and also other road users. He’d know to slow right down in a school zone, he’d know people turn without indicating, he’d know to be much more careful in wet conditions.

The problem is that old mate who has barely got a motorcycle licence sees Valentino, buys himself a 1000cc superbike he can’t control, thinks he can do the same - and ends up killing someone.

Our entire society is like this. There’s a bunch of rules that have to be adapted to everyone, and particularly the lowest common muppet on the planet.

I’d love to find an out of the way place in the daywalk area and I know I could stay there responsibly with zero impact.

However, I choose not to - because them’s the rules and that’s how our society works.

I could spend time complaining about how it shouldn’t apply to me/I’m an exception, but I’d rather just find somewhere else beautiful and remote to camp where it isn’t prohibited.

Just my 2c.

[TentPeg]

Hi South_Aussie_Hiker
That's an interesting analogy except it misses the mark completely.
No one on this forum topic has suggested that we should remove the over riding ban on camping in the day use area so Valentino doesn't have to be speeding at any stage - especially in school zones. If we were to use your Valentino analogy you might think of him taking a couple of weeks off and going touring on the Isle of Man in late May and early June. There is a speed limit on the Isle of Man but if you get a permit you can ride your bike as fast as you like in a Tourist Trophy Race on open roads.
Returning to the subject - all I am suggesting is that there is an identified need from a small number of individuals who want to take photos, at a time which is difficult within the current set of rules, and that Parks should be able to put in a permit system to allow them to do that under specified conditions. Parks already have a permit system in place for the Overland Track so I can't see why it couldn't be replicated for the small number of people who want to do this activity but are currently precluded from doing so by the current set of rules. Rules can change.
I will reiterate that I am not an Instagrammer, am not interested in taking dawn and dusk photos and have never slept on a summit like Cradle or Barn so I have no specific interest in this dialogue other than there seems to be a way of allowing it to happen for those who might want to.
Still seems pretty simple to me.

[Warin]

There are other places to take similar actions, photo or speed.

There are exemptions that can be obtained ... various car races in Australia take place on streets that otherwise have speed limits. Obtaining an exemption is not easy, and it should not be easy. No new 'rules' need to be made. If someone needs, really needs, a camping exemption then they can make their case and see. I personally vote no. People walk in the dark of night to take sunrise photos elsewhere, the same could be done here. Similar for sunset photos. Again, this may be against the 'rules'.. so apply for an exemption.. think that would be easier to get than a camping exemption. Once an exemption is granted others may expect the same, so I would think the difficulties that come with the exemption will be high. Tough, either accept it or move on.