Are Some Experinced Tasi Walkers Mad Or Just Masochists!

[under10kg]

Hi Guys,

I just returned from the south coast track. I arrived at Melaluca on the plane and met an american woman doing the track solo.

Her pack weight was 29.5 kgs with 8 days of food. This was about half her body weight.

She had been staying with some very experinced Tasi bushwalkers in Hobart that are professinal outdoor trainers. They loaded her up with 2 liters of white spirit, multiple layers of clothes, 4 apples and carrots and tons of dried food. Her intuition told her that this was all too much when she packed her pack but since they were experenced locals she went with their advice.

Just out of interest and not pushing light is best, I was carring 10 days of food and my pack weight was 13 kgs. (specialised light weight gear)

During the walk she was in pretty constant pain in the lower back, legs, ribs, hips etc etc. She had a good fitness level but no training to carry half her body weight. It was our great luck we had 2 hours of light rain in 8 days of walking.

Do others on this forum think this advice while well meaning was masochistic, stupid and possibly could have lead to a dangerous injury ?

[Son of a Beach]

It doesn't sound like great advice to me. Sure people are welcome to carry that much if they want to, but recommending gear & food that totals up to that much weight to an inexperienced person is not the best advice, in my opinion. I wonder if they just weren't aware of better gear, or better use of gear, or what other reasons they might have had. Multiple layers of clothes is fairly essential in Tasmania, but do you mean multiples of the same items, or too many layers?

I do not have any specialist light weight gear, and light weight is not my primary objective when packing for bushwalking, however, it is still important to me to lighten my load if I reasonably can. I don't often weigh my pack or any of the gear in it, but I would estimate that it would probably be somewhere between 15kg and 18 kg for 8 days (more towards the lower end if sharing tent/stove, etc).

Having said that, I've been known to carry up to around 25kg on longer extended trips (just guessing, again). That's a bit uncomfortable for the first few days.

PS. Are masochists not mad?

[Ent]

O'boy lets light a fire under those Tassie walkers and there love of equipment while pushing the UL band wagon. First, the basic "rule" is pack weight should be under 1/3 of body mass with questions been asked if above 25% on do you really need something. No problem for me at 109 kilograms but a challenge for some and at 30 kilograms those hills better be flat or it will be a very slow trip for even me. Secondly, good gear and food is not cheap, and as I personally found some people can not be told. I find it very alarming that someone heads out for eight days into country that they are not familiar with so lets blame the locals for not better equipping her. I would likely bet she was told not to do it, especially by herself. What are we suppose to do, tie her down?

UL is an art form or science and suddenly expecting a newbie to the South of Tasmania to come up to speed with that approach is as dangerous, if not more so, than lugging weight out of proportion to a persons body weight or training. Maybe the locals were hoping she would turn around at the carpark.

Seriously Under-ten-kilograms such posts do not do justice to the people that have been slammed. It is about as ridiculous as expecting me to make under ten kilograms at 6'3.5" as someone your size. Maybe being 40% bigger means I should be under fourteen kilograms. Absolute weights are as meaningless as quoting summer walking times to people heading off in heavy snows.

As a Tasmanian I am hearty feed-up with people rocking up to this state expecting to do long walks in remote areas as their first bushwalking experience. As a kid safety in the bush was drummed repeatly in and yes the result is massive overkill in equipment levels but there have been times when having a proper four season tent was appreciated. I am sure with basic survival training it would have been over-kill to the "Bear Grilsys" of this world but I for one was glad I had it even though the hut was "only" eight kilometres from the start of the walk. We did not make the hut that day.

Please under-ten-kilograms give us locals some creditability as generally it is not us that needs to be rescued.

Regards Brett

[Son of a Beach]

Brett makes a good point. Blaming the locals without knowing the full story might be a tad premature.

However, the question of whether the assumed advice was good or not is still a reasonable thing to ask.

PS. I think the advisors mentioned in the original posts are more sadists than masochists, from the limited information we have about them.

[under10kg]

I was not pushing the light weight view in the post at all, apart from a comparison weight.
Most other walkers on the track had a pack weight of arround 20 kgs at the start with normal gear.
She was in constant pain when walking.
Is this good, safe advice?
The woman did Mt Anne with the tasi walkers in question.
If they had gone through her pack and got rid of the heavy folding plyer knife, 2 carabinas to hold water bottles on etc etc.
I must admit I did enjoy plunger coffee every morning for helping her out.

[norts]

13kg for 10 days, that would mean 8-9kg of food, how do you get away with 5kgs of gear for the SW or less if you are including water in that 13 kg.
Would like to see you gear list and weights

Roger

[Jellybean]

Without knowing the full background to this story I don't think you can make any comment other than:

* if the "experienced" walkers advised her to carry 50% of her body weight in her pack, then it was poor advice (and perhaps the "experienced" walkers were not as "experienced" as she - or they - thought).

* She herself, should have been more aware of what she should have been taking (and was able to safely carry) on a remote walk of that nature and, if she did not have this knowledge and experience, shouldn't have been making the trip, certainly not solo.

I don't think that Under 10kg was having a go at Tasmanian walkers in general, just this particular lot (I certainly didn't read it that way and wouldn't take it as a personal insult - if I was Taswegian).

On a lighter note, Under 10kg how did the Moment go? I have been keenly awaiting your report(as I'm sure a few others have)!

Cheers,

JB

[under10kg]

On a lighter note, Under 10kg how did the Moment go? I have been keenly awaiting your report(as I'm sure a few others have)!

I put a post about the tent in the light weight reduction category. We had such nice weather that this walk was not a good test for the tent. I did not include water in the 13 kg or what I was wearing or walking poles used. Food 750 gms day. I will post a gear list on a new site I am doing soon. I had a frame less pack, 750 gm bag. When I carred some of her gear the pack was uncomforable it is was totally out of its design range for weight.

[corvus]

29.5 kg ?? how on earth did she manage to even pick it up ?? I weigh 70 kg and recently had a 27kg pack which I found difficult to even lift ,OK I am 63 and in muscle decline but for someone who only weighs about 60kg to initially carry 29.5 kg was stupid in the extreme regardless of who suggested it .
corvus

[Steve]

29.5kg is ridiculous!

[sirius Tas]

29.5 kg ?? how on earth did she manage to even pick it up ?? I weigh 70 kg and recently had a 27kg pack which I found difficult to even lift ,OK I am 63 and in muscle decline but for someone who only weighs about 60kg to initially carry 29.5 kg was stupid in the extreme regardless of who suggested it .
corvus

Ditto...ditto...ditto.
Utterly ridiculous....very foolish..... and I'm sure any enjoyment gained would have been totally negated by the walks end.
The sad part is that as SOB has said...you don't need to go to extreme LW gear to cut that weight almost in half....just a load of common sense which weighs nothing yet can save you heaps.

[under10kg]

29.5 kg ?? how on earth did she manage to even pick it up ??

Yep I helped her lift the pack up each day and carried some of her weight. I enjoyed the 2 apples on day 2. It reminds me of my heavy pack days in my 20s when I would always sit down on a rock so I could get up again! They did not have scales when she packed her stuff or food. However, the pack was weighed at the airport for the flight and she could have got rid of some excess heavy items. The recommended 2 liters of shellite was total over kill in my view. I think the outdoor training these guides do was originally based on army training that tries to break you down.
The good thing about this walk is that she learned a lot about walking lighter. She learned that you do not need to carry 3 liters of water. Just check the map and see where you can get a drink and carry 500ml. And I am sure she will trust her intuition the next time too. I think she will buy pacer poles as she loved mine. I am not sure she wants to try light weight runners though!
I learned to always carry lots of sunscrean in Tasi.

[flyfisher]

Even us non lightweight Tassie Strollers usually only carry arund 16-18kg wih 3or4 days food and spare food so 22kg should be enough for 7-9 days.

Can't help but feel sorry for that poor lady, a good trip spoiled. I bet she was happy for your help under 10kg and I bet she learnt a bit about light weight gear.

ff

[corvus]

29.5 kg ?? how on earth did she manage to even pick it up ??

Yep I helped her lift the pack up each day and carried some of her weight. I enjoyed the 2 apples on day 2. It reminds me of my heavy pack days in my 20s when I would always sit down on a rock so I could get up again! They did not have scales when she packed her stuff or food. However, the pack was weighed at the airport for the flight and she could have got rid of some excess heavy items. The recommended 2 liters of shellite was total over kill in my view. I think the outdoor training these guides do was originally based on army training that tries to break you down.
The good thing about this walk is that she learned a lot about walking lighter. She learned that you do not need to carry 3 liters of water. Just check the map and see where you can get a drink and carry 500ml. And I am sure she will trust her intuition the next time too. I think she will buy pacer poles as she loved mine. I am not sure she wants to try light weight runners though!
I learned to always carry lots of sunscrean in Tasi.

A word of warning dont trust maps as a guide to water availability as I have experienced situations in Tassie where the "known" water source had dried up so I would recommend two water bottles just in case.
corvus

[flyfisher]

Very true Corvus, especially this summer, which has been hot and dry- very little rain in many areas, so extra care needs to be taken to keep the bottles full.

ff

[Joel]

I agree also - utterly ridiculous and dangerous. I doubt that they were "experienced".

[NickD]

I think this is simply a personal thing.
Some people like to go light, and indeed some folk need to go light with the gear due to body constraints. If you however feel capable of carrying the extra kilo's on a trip, it doesn't make you mad or ill-informed, it may make you safety conscious or comfort conscious. I wouldn't see my pack on a personal 8 day trip weighing less than 22kg. Whilst working on the South Coast Track guiding, I have carried 40kg, although this isn't ideal (but I'm getting paid!!).

As I spend more days out in the wilderness than at home, the gear toll is pretty constant and therefore some of the gear I use is a little heavier duty (or old school) but I find it stands up to the test again and again. Also I carry a First Aid Kit that weighs approx 2.5kg. Maybe thats excessive, but the amount of times I've bailed out someone with a basic first aid kit with a problem tells me everything I need to hear

[Ent]

I think this is simply a personal thing.
Some people like to go light, and indeed some folk need to go light with the gear due to body constraints. If you however feel capable of carrying the extra kilo's on a trip, it doesn't make you mad or ill-informed, it may make you safety conscious or comfort conscious. I wouldn't see my pack on a personal 8 day trip weighing less than 22kg. Whilst working on the South Coast Track guiding, I have carried 40kg, although this isn't ideal (but I'm getting paid!!).

As I spend more days out in the wilderness than at home, the gear toll is pretty constant and therefore some of the gear I use is a little heavier duty (or old school) but I find it stands up to the test again and again. Also I carry a First Aid Kit that weighs approx 2.5kg. Maybe thats excessive, but the amount of times I've bailed out someone with a basic first aid kit with a problem tells me everything I need to hear

Hi NickD

Great to hear the other side of the debate that sometimes get lost in the background noise from people that disparage others views of the world simply because they have walked more miles therefore their experience makes them "unbiased" experts, rather than acknowledging that they are, as if not, more prejudiced as the people they rally against. Sadly they use every form of attack they can such as word counts Actually the heading of this thread should be called sadist rather than masochist as the allege pain was not self inflicted but applied to a third party but such exact use of terms would probably be too precise given the thrust I wonder how long the reverse "UL you must be stark raving bonkers" would have lasted before an underground campaign of PMs would have been unleashed to have the thread locked, edited, or removed. I like robust gear and debate so accept that the heading is design to achieve this rather than be offensive. Pity others could not return the tolerance rather than seeking to have posts edited.

Gear longevity is something that gets missed from some evaluations but then again if you are chasing the lowest weight and as new stuff constantly coming out then twelve months is a long time so long life is probably not as critical in the decision making process. Personally never been keen on evaluating gear on a single dimensions such as weight, or cost as in the real world where tax write-off and investment allowances do not apply to private walkers the criteria I use is best value as an item that lasts and lasts can recoup its cost quite quickly plus nothing worse than coming home carrying something that has failed. The Black Diamond walking poles I have now have proven cheaper per day in the bush compared to other brands even using Australian purchase price. Gear longevity is something that the individual plays a major role in but sadly some snipe away failing to understand others requirements. Sort of attitude that holds a narrow view of what is "right" based on averages rather than seeking to tailor equipment to an individual's style and preferences. Thank goodness we are not governed by a would be military supply sergeant's arrogance that everyone must fit into a narrow range of boots sizes like what has happened in the Australian forces. "Suck it man that packs fit me so it should fit you" is something that belongs in a B grade military movie.

Personally gradually getting gear together that does not fail with gaiters probably being the last bug bear but some promising steps have been made in that regards. It is amazing how old favourites get drag back into use after the charm of new items met the reality of walking. Weight for me is important but longevity and comfort will trump it under the best value approach I use. If I was of more limited financial means then weight would lose again with things such as shelter and sleeping mats given the level of comfort and protection I personally ascribe to. In fact the cost of the new Neoair is the only thing that is stopping me form lighting the load as I have a perfectly good Therma-rest Prolite 4 that is not that ridiculously heavy to consider replacing. I am sure some head bush with a perfectly good two kilogram sleeping bag simply because they can not either justify or afford the cost of replacing it. I have such a bag that is thirty years old and in excellent condition. It is like the three four season fittings. By definition this is more expensive than only fitting out for all seasons. Also I challenge anyone to find a month in Tassie in the last 10 years it has not snowed.

Cheers Brett

[Nuts]

Que the caveats! Though in some ways I do agree! Only personally (in my case) I feel the constant reminders of 'what works for me', 'how silly is that trade off', blah blah and the narrowness they make of general discussion almost as offensive as the notion of being 'paid' to carry 40kg and thinking 'one' is on to a good thing

[NickD]

Why would you find that 'offensive' Nuts?

[tasadam]

Just a reminder.
Debate is okay. Stirring and banter can be a bit problematic. Sure it can be fun among mates but when others read it, it can sound pretty unpleasant when you don't know that people are good friends. Though meant as good banter it is simply setting the tone for others to do the same to people they don't know, not realising that such banter in the past might have been a bit of fun between mates. If in doubt, consider rule 1 in the context of how would you read what you have just written if it was directed at you, and you did not personally know the recipient.
This comment is not directed at anyone in particular, nor is it in response to anything in particular in this topic.

For something on topic, my SW Cape walk for 15 days last November I commenced with a pack in excess of 30 kg's. I am a skinny runt of 62 - 63 kg's (178cm). Through the duration of the walk I lost 5 kg's of body weight, a big wake up call.
I struggled to put the weight on again too.
My wife's pack began at around 26 kg's, what a trooper!
My circumstances of having a heavy pack are a bit different to the norm in that we carried over 10 kg's of camera gear. The pack weights without this would have been quite acceptable for a 15 day walk, and we could even have gone for a lot longer without the camera gear.

Heavy loads can be ok if you know what you are in for, and you can take your time, shorter days, and rest more.
I did not unduly struggle or suffer injury. Though there was one 2KM stretch of flat walking (2nd day) that was rather difficult because of walking nearly all day without a pack, climbing Mt Melaleuca. The rest of the walk was quite tolerable indeed...

The load applied to the person in the OP of this topic seems excessive to me.

She had been staying with some very experinced Tasi bushwalkers in Hobart that are professinal outdoor trainers

Can this be qualified, or is it hear-say?

[jcr_au]

Through the duration of the walk I lost 5 kg's of body weight, a big wake up call.
I struggled to put the weight on again too.

With the right bit of marketing you could make a fortune taking on gloria marshall, and have an endless supply of sherpa's

[under10kg]

She had been staying with some very experinced Tasi bushwalkers in Hobart that are professinal outdoor trainers

Yes they were trainers in an outdoor training organisation that I will not name.

[Macca81]

i dont have UL gear, infact i have some gear that is downright heavy! an 8 day walk would not go over 25kg for me tho, it prob wouldnt go over 22kg. 30kg is just wrong, specially for someone who is half my weight!!!

[corvus]

On a recent food drop I was just a tad over 22kg with 10 kg of food (5 hour walk for me) and the rest Base weight including water personal needs and two lunches,at 69kg soaking wet that was my maximum load the last few ks were painful and very slow however I did make it and as a 63 year old I am proud of my achievement.
All of this was using my normal equipment ,so yes to each their own
corvus

[sef]

Knowing what gear to take requires some knowledge and experience in the conditions. I think the advice the outdoors people gave was proper -- echoing Brett's original response, she's better off safe and uncomfortable than light on her feet.

Both sides of the weight debate are masochists. I'm on the lighter side of things (ten days in tassie - maybe 15kg?), and like to pass the occasional bit of judgement on the slow, wheezing masses pulling themselves uphill. But when you cross paths with a herd of them and one offers you some coconut rough, or they start frying up a steak, or when you've been stuck in a tent for two days with only a topo map to read...

Was the plunger coffee any good?

[Tony]

Hi Sef,

Knowing what gear to take requires some knowledge and experience in the conditions. I think the advice the outdoors people gave was proper -- echoing Brett's original response, she's better off safe and uncomfortable than light on her feet.

Could you explain to me how it is safer for a newbie bushwalker to carry a pack of 29.5kg for an 8 day walk (in this case 50% of her weight?) than say carrying a pack of around 15kg.

Tony

[flyfisher]

I'm with you Tony, proper gear selection is the key and leave the unneccessary items out.
I don't mean safety items but its too easy to load up like a mule at the market and this in itself can cause problems an a lessening of enjoyment. 20kg should be plenty of gear and food for that long.

[ILUVSWTAS]

Both sides of the weight debate are masochists. I'm on the lighter side of things (ten days in tassie - maybe 15kg?), and like to pass the occasional bit of judgement on the slow, wheezing masses pulling themselves uphill. But when you cross paths with a herd of them and one offers you some coconut rough, or they start frying up a steak, or when you've been stuck in a tent for two days with only a topo map to read...

Thats the point isnt it, experience will tell all. I did an 8-10 day trip recently and carried 26kg. But I had a book on standby and lots of luxury items. At the end of the day it comes down to knowing what you NEED to carry and what extra you WANT or maybe more importantly are capable of carrying!

Im jealous of guys who can carry 15kg for a 10 day trip. but im sure they are jealous of me when on day 6 I pull out the smarties and toblerone and drinking chocolate and sit back reading my book with a glass of scotch........

[flyfisher]

Maybe.......