Mount Warning National Park Management Plan

[Avatar]

Couldn't find any threads on this and it sounds like something the bushwalking community would be aware of and some might even have concerns.
Anyone got information on this?

It's reported access will be closed with $500k fines for breaching.
Is this the thin end of the wedge for bushwalkers and other regions may be subject to similar closure?

https://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/topi ... ional-park

[sandym]

I think it is the thin edge of the wedge. There is a NP down here on the south coast under indigineous management and it has been closed since the 2019 fires. That is 3 years and there seem to be no plans to open it back up to the general public.

But, I also think we may have entered times when it is very difficult to stop the machine. If you come off as not 100% supporting native title rights you are instantly accused of being racist and it is a downward spiral from there.

Mount Warning has, to my knowledge, also been closed since about 2017. I remember because that year we were driving up to Queensland for a long sea kayak trip and I wanted to go to that park and it was closed. Now I think about, the closure could even predate that.

[JohnnoMcJohnno]

It's been closed many times over the years, after cyclone Oswald and Cyclone Debbie in particular, when major track restoration was required. However the latest closure was from March 2021 ostensibly due to covid.

I'm not convinced it is as simple as an Aboriginal land rights issue I think it is more to do with the ongoing expense of maintaining a safe track to the summit, for which NPWS get no income. I used to walk this track weekly for exercise, and there were many times when police, SES, helicopters etc were required to rescue someone, and on two occassions to extricate bodies. My personal opinion is that the authorities have had enough.

[CBee]

Last time I hiked to the summit, it was horrific. A procession that looked more like the crowd at IKEA on a weekend. Groups with loud speakers and horrific music. Trail runners bumping into hikers and cursing. People in their 90s having heart attacks. Even a group of young girls, hangover, trying to block the path because one of them was pooing on the track and didn't want other hikers to see her. The section with the chain was more like the Hillary steps during peak hours on a good sunny day. Upon arriving near the top, the traffic was jammed and a man told me to get in line and wait my turn to get to the platform for a view. I was thinking... just place a booth at the car park and charge 30$ per person for the National Park entry. At the end of the day, it's all about money.

[sandym]

Interesting. How come the NSW goverment does not shut down all pie shops, junk food stores, liquour outlets etc. as we are now at 70% of Aussies obese or overweight and these things cost far more money, by a huge margin, than rescuing a few people off a bushwalking track?

Should probably have another trigger warning on that.

[Avatar]

Sounds like it's Australia's unsung Mt Everest sans frostbite and pulmonary oedema and the planned closure and $500,000 fines for breaching are nothing to worry about then.

[duncanm]

Strange people don't seem to care.

Thin edge of the wedge.. get ready for more and more closures based on dubious feelz and mysticism.

Its a dangerous place, apparently. The mere presence of a woman in some areas may make people physically ill (pp40).

[sandym]

Actually, I think it is a big issue and is going to get worse and worse. I am unsure, however, how much impact one has writing letters etc. to National Parks. Have done that so often in the past and it generally seems that the "public consultation" is really "we are doing this." I fear that parks will either be off limits or managed experiences for people who want to pay $400 to walk 8 km a day and stay in a big hut.

Is it progress?

[ribuck]

How come the NSW goverment does not shut down all pie shops, junk food stores, liquour outlets etc. as we are now at 70% of Aussies obese or overweight

Because pie eaters won't stand for it. But most bushwalkers seem to embrace regulation. Stockholm Syndrome at its best - love your rulers.

There was a time when public land was ... public land. Now it's treated as government-controlled land, which the authorities might in some circumstances deign to allow the public to visit.

[north-north-west]

I wiish people put as much effort into objecting to restrictions on movement (and the inevitablke environmental damage) caused by forestry or mining or hydro developments as they do with Aboriginal land.

[sandym]

I wiish people put as much effort into objecting to restrictions on movement (and the inevitablke environmental damage) caused by forestry or mining or hydro developments as they do with Aboriginal land.

I don't know that this is true. Certainly virtually impossible to prove. Down my way people are constantly protesting logging of native forests and I see that in other places in the news a lot. Farmers are protesting coal plants. Neighbours are protesting about clearing of local green spaces. National Parks are parks for the "nation" one would assume given that they are called "National".

People may be concerned about the thin edge of the wedge - to use a trite metaphor - because all Australian land is aboriginal land.

[Nuts]

Whatever hierarchy is applied, in words and (especially) actions, all our park services recognise they are responsible for the conservation of areas of 'cultural heritage'. It' happens to be an aim listed below environmental protection and above providing for recreation on the NSW/PWS site, in their interpretation. Maybe restrictions are a shock because the services haven't done a lot so directed at cultural heritage in the past?

Anyhow, yeah, the topic was discussed here when an ongoing or permanent restriction was first mentioned. It didn't seem, from one seemingly studied poster, that cultural heritage was the main issue. So maybe those daggers are pointing in the wrong direction. Or maybe not, likely a handful of people who know the real story. Transparency is probably deserved first and foremost, given they are the nations parks.

[hikesaround]

It seems that NSW National Parks have already provoked their first court case: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-qY6GZ1JJ4
Did they think we were going to just lie down and take their *&^%$#! without a fight?

[freetoroam]

Community meeting to support public access to the Mt Warning Park and summit January 14, 2023. Knox park Murwillumbah 11am.

[Avatar]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11464231/Mount-Warning-Indigenous-womens-sacred-sites-extinguished-Wollumbin-Consultative-Group.html

[sandym]

Wow. Even First Nations can't agree. What a schemmozzle.

[CBee]

Ok, so the vast majority of visitors (tourists we want to call them, 120 thousand or so per year), have been banned from walking on the mountain, in favour of a small group of traditional owners. Then, half of them, have already banned the other half (women) to access the mountain. And on the article I read the word "discrimination". It makes all a lot of sense...

[crollsurf]

This was already documented in July under the Wollumbin AP Management Plan so not sure why it's suddenly become news
https://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/research-and-publications/publications-search/wollumbin-aboriginal-place-management-plan
There will/is "women only" and "men only" sites. Interestingly the plans states "if women access areas that are restricted to men, women are in physical danger and likewise for men".

Plan is also to transfer all NSW National Parks to Aboriginal owners that are then to be leased back to the government
https://www.nsw.gov.au/media-releases/national-parks-joint-management
Consultation has already begun
https://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/topics/parks-reserves-and-protected-areas/park-management/community-engagement/aboriginal-joint-management-model-consultation

So watch this space

[Nuts]

Interestingly the plans states "if women access areas that are restricted to men, women are in physical danger and likewise for men".

Is interesting. I assume in terms of becoming ill (in this day and age), how can any inherent belief, including designated gender sites, be set aside without dismissing a cultural claim entirely?

More broadly, I don't see why the aboriginal collective would want to manage parks, assuming rent is 'nominal' and access is (generally) expected. And do wonder, given previous experience of selected stakeholders (and the dissent mentioned), who has had the loudest voice here.

It is a bit confusing to think that 'ownership' will be transferred, given we assume governments (P&W) are expected, at the end of the day, to have been custodians, a concept being expressed many years ago when traditional groups (the 'nation') were/was starting to be heard.

[aussiehiker]

This has been in the pipeline for a while. NPWS commissioned a study of alternative options to climbing Wollumbin back in 2013 when the track had to be closed following a storm event.
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... fe_Service

[Avatar]

Now closed to visitors.
Photos, paintings or drawings could also be disallowed.
North Coast Indigenous woman Stella Whielden, is pursuing an international human rights case over the ban on women at Mt Warning.
Wonder who is funding this case?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... -Plan.html

[duncanm]

She should identify as a man, then there'd be no issue.

It'd be wonderful to see the intersectional heads explode trying to untangle that.

[Avatar]

Fines for photographing Mt Warning?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... -Plan.html

[Aardvark]

Why should any culture maintain that they, and they alone can cling on to every facet of their history/beliefs when clearly all cultures develop over time and have to make adjustments due to population growth, climate changes, intellectual development, economy or market forces and so on.
Sure its quaint how there was once a belief that a persons' soul was taken when images were copied somehow.
That clearly flies in the face of intellectual development. Even if it were to cling to some sort of religious or spiritual realm it would still eventually be at odds with peoples need to express themselves. Am i to believe that aboriginal artists would forever remain content to being confined to painting around handprints etc. How about all of the other life forms which have their images copied/painted. eg roos and wombats and emus. Respect for these creatures seems to be very arbitrary. If we can eat them then i guess they just don't count. Humans can be eaten too.
I'm not going to discard any photos i have of Mt.Warning. If i'm taking a photo anywhere within the Tweed Caldera and Mt.Warning appears in it, am i expected to to erase the part showing Wollumbin. HA

[north-north-west]

Why should any culture maintain that they, and they alone can cling on to every facet of their history/beliefs when clearly all cultures develop over time and have to make adjustments due to population growth, climate changes, intellectual development, economy or market forces and so on.

It's usually called "religion". And they all do it.

[sandym]

It's usually called "religion". And they all do it.

Not strictly true. Women are now ordained into some Christian churches as ministers. People of differing sexuality are now accepted. Witches are no longer burned at stakes and the Catholics are not going around waging inquisitions.

Religions evolve.

[north-north-west]

"Religions evolve."

Sometimes. And slowly. And generally only from being pushed into it.
As have indiginous cultures and beliefs.
But because they haven't evolved into our way of thinking, they are usually, by most, considered to have not evolved appropriately, or sufficiently.

Is it really so very hard to accept that some places are off limits to us because of a culture that has slowly evolved on this continent for over 60,000 years? There aren't many such places, and they don't cover a large area of ground in comparison to the land closed to the general public due to private ownership (especially for agricultural purposes), mining, forestry, dams, etc.

[PatriceJohnson]

Why should any culture maintain that they, and they alone can cling on to every facet of their history/beliefs when clearly all cultures develop over time and have to make adjustments due to population growth, climate changes, intellectual development, economy or market forces and so on.
Sure its quaint how there was once a belief that a persons' soul was taken when images were copied somehow.
That clearly flies in the face of intellectual development. Even if it were to cling to some sort of religious or spiritual realm it would still eventually be at odds with peoples need to express themselves. Am i to believe that aboriginal artists would forever remain content to being confined to painting around handprints etc. How about all of the other life forms which have their images copied/painted. eg roos and wombats and emus. Respect for these creatures seems to be very arbitrary. If essay we can eat them then i guess they just don't count. Humans can be eaten too.
I'm not going to discard any photos i have of Mt.Warning. If i'm taking a photo anywhere within the Tweed Caldera and Mt.Warning appears in it, am i expected to to erase the part showing Wollumbin. HA

It's true that it's no longer practical to cling to the idea that one culture alone can hold on to every aspect of its history and beliefs without making any adjustments.

I agree, I mean also that think about it, there was a time when people believed that copying images somehow took away a person's soul...

Overall, it's about finding a balance and respecting cultural sensitivities while also allowing for creative expression and personal experiences))

Cheers!
PatriceJohnson

[rcaffin]

there was a time when people believed that copying images somehow took away a person's soul...
Now we have Photoshop and ChatGPT and so on . . .

I have no objection to someone believing anything they want.
I have extreme objections to them trying to impose their beliefs on me. And to their trying to impose their restrictions on me.
Reminds me of the times when only white male landowners had any voting rights.

Cheers
Roger
Me - old and grumpy? No way!

[sandym]

I have no objection to someone believing anything they want.
I have extreme objections to them trying to impose their beliefs on me. And to their trying to impose their restrictions on me.
Reminds me of the times when only white male landowners had any voting rights.

Cheers
Roger
Me - old and grumpy? No way!

Can't say whether you are old and grumpy or not, but we do seem to have entered an era where the moral stewards of the world would like to control our behaviour to a disturbing degree.

I am quite concerned that Australia is increasingly moving towards rules, regulations and closures of public lands under the banner of cultural sensitivity.