Falls Creek to Mt Hotham Alpine Crossing

Victoria specific bushwalking discussion.
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Victoria specific bushwalking discussion. Please avoid publishing details of access to sensitive areas with no tracks.

Re: Falls Creek to Mt Hotham Alpine Crossing

Postby paidal_chalne_vala » Wed 16 Dec, 2015 8:32 pm

I have not given up the fight at all comrades, but I do get the impression that in this issue PV are merely puppets on a string that are being controlled by the Falls/ Hotham resorts.
I have written to state Politicians. The LNP state shadow minister for the environment just said " we have read your letter with interest etc." and the Labourals ' State Govt. minister for the environment just passed the letter onto a corporate minion and speaker of double speak at PV. ( see the reply I was give above).
I wrote to the State head of the Greens and got nothing from that Greg Barber person.
I don't know what the VNPA are doing about this.If they can launch a ' hands off the Prom' campaign then they can launch a 'hands off the High Plains' campaign. However more people can drive to Tidal river and enthuse about it than can hike the Falls/ Hotham/ Razorback area carrying full packs.
It would seem Any plans to develop The Prom gets more people cross than paving paradise and putting up a parking lot elsewhere.
The critical mass of opposition is easier to concentrate and mobilize when you talk about the Prom possibly being developed rather than the more distant from Melb. and more challenging environment of the Alpine N.P. .
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Re: Falls Creek to Mt Hotham Alpine Crossing

Postby Xplora » Fri 18 Dec, 2015 6:02 am

I have been thinking also that Hotham has very little to offer in the green time apart from the Razorback walk. It would be to its advantage to set up some glamping on that walk such as has been proposed for High Knob but we all know it is only a day walk there and back and in all the years people have been doing this they could not open a single lodge to accommodate tourists in the summer. Dinner Plain does a better job. To me this shows how self centered the resorts are. I think the resort managements will still have some trouble convincing the lodge owners they can make some money out of this by staying open.
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Re: Falls Creek to Mt Hotham Alpine Crossing

Postby north-north-west » Fri 18 Dec, 2015 6:49 am

If they want to set up glamping there are areas within the resort zone that can be used. It's simply not appropriate for it to be done out on the Razorback, particularly somewhere like High Knob.
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Re: Falls Creek to Mt Hotham Alpine Crossing

Postby Lophophaps » Fri 18 Dec, 2015 8:00 am

Xplora wrote:It would be to its advantage to set up some glamping on that walk such as has been proposed for High Knob but we all know it is only a day walk there and back and in all the years people have been doing this they could not open a single lodge to accommodate tourists in the summer. Dinner Plain does a better job. To me this shows how self centered the resorts are. I think the resort managements will still have some trouble convincing the lodge owners they can make some money out of this by staying open.


It seems that the idea is to offer tourists a wilderness experience in a lodge, like at Three Capes. The OLT private huts do this better because they are discrete. Dinner Plain works in summer because it's flatter than Hotham Heights and the road is further way. One lodge might have enough custom to cover fixed costs such as staff and utilities with summer bookings, but I think not. Who will take the risk of advertising to find just a handful of people each week and running at a loss?


north-north-west wrote:If they want to set up glamping there are areas within the resort zone that can be used. It's simply not appropriate for it to be done out on the Razorback, particularly somewhere like High Knob.


They need the challenge of the hard and long walk (for tourists) to High Knob, then the arduous climb up Feathertop, gives them a sense of achievement. Good views assist. The danger remains: heat, cold, wet, fire. I was camped near Derrick Hut a while ago and saw that the vast majority of tourists had inadequate gear. One party of 20 people went on to Dibbins, day trip from Hotham. They said that it did not look far on the map. I said that it's a climb getting back. Nothing in the news so they probably go back okay.
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Re: Falls Creek to Mt Hotham Alpine Crossing

Postby Xplora » Fri 18 Dec, 2015 8:45 am

Lophophaps wrote: I was camped near Dibbins Hut a while ago and saw that the vast majority of tourists had inadequate gear. One party of 20 people went on to Dibbins, day trip from Hotham. They said that it did not look far on the map. I said that it's a climb getting back. Nothing in the news so they probably go back okay.


Being guided and fully supported is possibly a better way for the occasional walker who is unprepared. I too have seen more than my fair share of unprepared people. Many of these have branched out from the higher volume tourist nodes or have no idea of the area. This happens everywhere a tourist node is developed. I have had to give water away many times as the 600ml mineral water bottle did not last the 5 hour return trip in summer with no ground water. Whenever my walk came close to one of these high volume areas with the invading tourist I would casually talk in a loud voice to my companions about the huge brown snake that almost got us back there. PV does put up signage in some areas to indicate the distance and grade of walks but it does not seem to standard for the ANP. Maybe it will in time.
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Re: Falls Creek to Mt Hotham Alpine Crossing

Postby Lophophaps » Fri 18 Dec, 2015 2:41 pm

Advice from Parks Victoria.

1 Why has PV undertaken planning when the ANP management plan is not finalised?

A. The Falls to Hotham Alpine Crossing Master Plan preliminary concept has been prepared in the context of the draft Alpine National Park Management Plan. Community and stakeholder feedback regarding the draft Alpine National Park Management Plan that is relevant to the Falls to Hotham Alpine Crossing Master Plan, will be incorporated.

Comment: Right.

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2 Why has PV undertaken planning when there is no economic analysis?

A. Economic analysis is an important part of the development of all of Parks Victoria’s Master Plans, including the Falls to Hotham Alpine Crossing Master Plan. The first step in determining an accurate economic analysis is the development of a broad concept (in this case, a proposed route) and test that idea with community and stakeholders. That is the purpose of the preliminary concept phase and the initial stakeholder briefings.

Comment: The broad concept is a walk from Wallaces to Hotham. I've done the analysis and the broad concept does not work.

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3 The economic benefits will be tiny compared to winter. Why bother?

A. The specific economic benefits of any project cannot be determined until the planning and assessment stages have been undertaken. The establishment of an iconic walk in the Australian Alps has the potential to bring economic benefits, as well as social, employment and environmental benefits, to the north-east and the resorts in summer.

Comment: Analysis done, QED.

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4 Why are the PV walk proposal documents so full of errors?

A. Parks Victoria is not aware of any errors. Please provide some further information and examples if you wish to discuss this further.

Comment: I've advised PV three times about these errors. My submission has some details.

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5 Why is the planned walk so dangerous?

A. There is a degree of risk in any walk in the natural environment, but particularly in the Alps where conditions can deteriorate quickly. These risks currently exist and are managed accordingly by Parks Victoria. The Falls to Hotham Alpine Crossing provides for both independent and guided opportunities, so visitors can work within their level of experience and capability.

Comment: Totally missed the point.

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6 Why is there a planned hut or standing camp at or near High Knob, contrary to the zone?

A. The preliminary concept tests the idea of an overnight camp and/or hut on the top of Diamantina Spur below High Knob. It is a beautiful location that is already used by campers. This is not inconsistent with the zoning in the Alpine National Park Management Plan. Further planning is required to assess the risks the proposal may have on the surrounding environmental and cultural landscape.

Comment: There's a world of difference between ad hoc camping and a formal standing camp. A hut is anything but "not inconsistent with the zoning in the Alpine National Park Management Plan."

****************************


7 How will the hut or standing camp at or near High Knob be supplied?

A. This will be determined during the development of the Falls to Hotham Alpine Crossing Master Plan, but is likely to be a combination of helicoptering and walking in. This is a similar model to remote hiker camps on the Grampians Peaks Trail. No new roads are proposed.

Comment: Choppers on the Razorback and in the Grampians. Not mentioned in the planning information.

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8 Is it the intention of PV to charge all people to camp at all the current camp sites along the proposed route?

A. New hiker camps and huts would be available on a fee for service basis.

Comment: That seems to mean that the free camping at High Knob would now cost. There appears to be scant awareness that the plaforms at Dibbins and Cope have not worked very well.


****************************


9 Will there be any provision for people to walk this route without using the proposed commercial camping infrastructure?

A. Yes, the walk will still allow for independent walkers.

Comment: Okay.

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10 Will the track receive maintenance and infrastructure upgrades such as board walks, steps and handrails, and if so who will be paying for it?

A. Track upgrades will be an essential part of the walk and will resolve long-standing environmental issues such as poorly constructed trails, erosion and braiding. Steps and supporting infrastructure would be kept a minimum and would be constructed on natural materials wherever possible to retain the natural and wilderness qualities of the walk.

Comment: I think I saw "braiding" in another PV reply, not to me. Where is there braiding? Wilderness at Diamantina and Swindlers? LOL.

****************************


11 If there will be a maintenance and infrastructure upgrade, will this be prior to the commencement of commercial walks?

A. The timing and scheduling of any works is yet to be determined. Commercial walks conducted by local tour operators currently operate. It is expected that trail and infrastructure upgrades will assist these operators and prospective new businesses.

Comment: Question not answered.

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12 A less expensive and far safer option is to upgrade the pole line and test the market with this route. Why is this not under consideration?

A. Parks Victoria’s initial analysis suggests that while the pole line may be acceptable for independent walkers, this route and the facilities do not meet the ‘world-class’ standard that the current Falls to Hotham Alpine Crossing project is aspiring to and which will allow it to compete with other iconic walks in Tasmania, New Zealand and overseas. Parks Victoria considers that including Mt Feathertop as part of the walking experience is crucial in meeting this benchmark.

Comment: This is the big one. PV will be putting people at risk to achieve a world-class image. In a direct competition with the Tassie and NZ, Victoria will lose. We need to promote our strong points, not compete with theirs. It's not rocket surgery.

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13 Has all the project team walked the tracked sections of the proposed walk, and if not why not? In particular has anyone on the project team walked up Diamantina Spur as part of the preliminaries to compiling the proposal information? If not, why not?

A. Yes, the Parks Victoria project team has walked the Diamantina Spur on a number of occasions and they are fully aware of the steep and challenging nature of this segment of the walk.

The current proposal suggests that the walk up Diamantina can be made more achievable through some trail realignments and the establishment of a high quality trail surface which may utilise stone steps and regular rest stops so that people can walk it at their own pace. Having said that, Diamantina will be unachievable for some people who may need to consider other walk options which are less demanding.

Comment: And they still want to put bumblies up the spur? It's 700 metres of climbing regardless of any spin.

****************************

Karen Raabe
Regional Marketing and Communications – Eastern Region
M: 0403 308 679 I E: karen.raabe@parks.vic.gov.au
Parks Victoria
71 Hotham Street, Traralgon VIC 3844

Comment
I'm not sure if Karen has read my submission, or that of other people

Marketing from Traralgon. Interesting.
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Re: Falls Creek to Mt Hotham Alpine Crossing

Postby paidal_chalne_vala » Fri 18 Dec, 2015 4:00 pm

Traralgon is closer to Licola/Lake Tali Karng than to Mt Beauty/Falls Creek !. The whole plan could come from an episode of " Yes Minister" !.
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Re: Falls Creek to Mt Hotham Alpine Crossing

Postby north-north-west » Fri 18 Dec, 2015 4:31 pm

A. Parks Victoria’s initial analysis suggests that while the pole line may be acceptable for independent walkers, this route and the facilities do not meet the ‘world-class’ standard that the current Falls to Hotham Alpine Crossing project is aspiring to and which will allow it to compete with other iconic walks in Tasmania, New Zealand and overseas. Parks Victoria considers that including Mt Feathertop as part of the walking experience is crucial in meeting this benchmark.


It's not a *&%$#! competition you *&^%$#@!! You're supposed to be taking care of the place, not seeing how many dollars you can screw out of it! ANY usage should always be subject to negation (where possible) or (at the very least) minimisation of environmental impacts.
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Re: Falls Creek to Mt Hotham Alpine Crossing

Postby paidal_chalne_vala » Fri 18 Dec, 2015 7:37 pm

Hear hear, comrade.Well said!. The bean counters are running the asylum. It is not a *&^%$ competition , it is place designed to preserve biodiversity of all flora and fauna as well as a place where stressed humans escaping from the insanity of 2016 A.D. can rejuvenate in unspoiled and undeveloped wilderness environments without having to pay $$$$$ or jump through more hoops that require computer literacy.
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Re: Falls Creek to Mt Hotham Alpine Crossing

Postby Xplora » Sat 19 Dec, 2015 6:06 am

Some good non answers coming from PV. No new roads but there are some 'track realignments' with ' rest stops' which means a zig zag of new tracks with park benches, steps and handrails that fit into the surrounds. Also PV confirms that without Feathertop the walk is nothing which is what I said in my submission but more like without Feathertop the commercial partners would not be interested. So it seems the only 'iconic' thing about this walk is the Razorback and Feathertop and the rest is boring. Is this a silk purse/sows ear thing? Don't get me wrong, I still love walking the High Plains and find many interesting things to see each time but if you wanted to develop an Iconic walk of international standard wouldn't the best mountain walk in Victoria be more appropriate? We could argue which one that would be but in my opinion it would not be this and maybe it is a good thing they do not want to do that. The point being that the better walks with better mountain views will not serve the commercial interests (resort).

How are they going to make the first 2 days interesting enough to encourage people to walk the whole thing instead of the day walk across the Razorback? More marketing spin aimed at those who do not know any better. Suck them in and take their money. There are a number of commercial operators running the current alignment or at least have permits. The only one Falls Creek is advertising, Evolve, does not have any tours currently booked. It took weeks for them to get back to me. I asked for information about the walk but instead got the reply which basically said we are not doing any for the moment. Some people do like a challenge while others like everything put in a can so they can brag later to others who know no better. Much like the big white hunter who pays big to shoot a lion in a cage and takes home the trophy.

Regarding the camping platforms I can tell you that they are being booked out regularly, at least the ones at Cope, mostly by people who do not know any better and overseas tourists who like to be off the ground because of all our deadly creatures.

Answer 3 - what potential environmental benefits and do economic benefits out way environmental impact? Also they pretty much said you will have to pay to camp but you can pitch a tent anywhere as long as it is 100m away from the platforms. I am sure also, the greedy will not tell the client all about the climb up Diamantina or it will be done with the usual marketing spin. Think about how the guide will have to deal with things when see the view from Weston's Hut and the clients are told 'that is Mt. Feathertop' and all they can see it this BIG down and that HUGE up.

Remember when they say they will consult with stakeholders that means those who are putting money into will get more of a say unless we start talking with a collective voice.

Hear are a few other operators. The first one does it all with Ski lodge accommodation. Note the errors in the blurb. The second one leaves you on your own with a map but it costs less. He does provide meals though. These guys would also be interested stakeholders as it will affect their business.

http://auswalk.com.au/walks/great-alpine-group/
http://goodtimestours.com.au/falls-hoth ... -crossing/
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Re: Falls Creek to Mt Hotham Alpine Crossing

Postby Lophophaps » Sat 19 Dec, 2015 9:51 am

Xplora wrote:So it seems the only 'iconic' thing about this walk is the Razorback and Feathertop and the rest is boring. Is this a silk purse/sows ear thing? ... if you wanted to develop an Iconic walk of international standard wouldn't the best mountain walk in Victoria be more appropriate? We could argue which one that would be but in my opinion it would not be this and maybe it is a good thing they do not want to do that. The point being that the better walks with better mountain views will not serve the commercial interests (resort).

Seems so.

Xplora wrote:More marketing spin aimed at those who do not know any better. Suck them in and take their money.

This will work in the short term but not in the long term.

Xplora wrote:Much like the big white hunter who pays big to shoot a lion in a cage and takes home the trophy.

This seems to be the intention. One of the two websites you listed had the word "tick" against some mountains or places.

Xplora wrote:I am sure also, the greedy will not tell the client all about the climb up Diamantina or it will be done with the usual marketing spin. Think about how the guide will have to deal with things when see the view from Weston's Hut and the clients are told 'that is Mt. Feathertop' and all they can see it this BIG down and that HUGE up.

Agree. Maybe the unfit will be sorted by then and the easier option of Machinery Spur will be used.

The Auswalk trips on the high plains have departure dates of 27 December2015, 31 January 2016, 7 January 2017 and 11 February 2017. Not much demand, Prices start at $2400 or $340/day.

Other prices are interesting. Fraser island is $3400 for 7 days and Flinders Ranges is $2800 for 8 days, or $480 and $350 a day. All are similar to my estimate of $370-500/day, which includes recovery of capital. These commercial trips do not include that, so add the cost of this. I estimate $300,000 a year is needed to pay for the infrastructure. At most there's 200 clients a year. Suppose the Brave New Walk bumps client numbers five times, to 1000. The cost per person to pay for the infrastructure would be an extra $300. Other states have the infrastructure in place, and a fee such as the OLT $200 to pay for this. Victoria cannot compete on this basis.

Auswalk advertise going on the Razorback to Feathertop and down the Bungalow, but it seems that there are no takers. I rather like the advice that "As part of the enormous Australian Alps National Park, the area is covered in a blanket of snow from late May to November," Must tell the resorts, they'll be thrilled. Maybe it's a thin blanket.

Auswalk have a series of day trips for their seven day crossing based at Falls and Hotham. Day four is interesting. It seems that clients are driven to the AAWT near Cope Hut or the management road near Mt Cope and walk to Dibbins and then to Hotham. This is about 22 kilometres, ups and downs included. Day six is to Feathertop and Harrietville. Day seven is a drive to the bus stop.

Good Times Tours cost $449 for the whole trip, three days and two nights. The company drives the gear to Cope Hut:
"Once guests have began the walk, I'll drive ahead with the tour vehicle and setup the tents along sleeping mats, sleeping bags and ensure refreshments and meals are ready for your arrival at approx. 6pm. In the evening we can enjoy a glass of wine around the campfire before getting a good night's sleep."

At Cope Hut "you will be given a fitted, 65-76l One Planet hiking pack which will include your camping/sleeping gear along with your food for the day. You will then be given a map along with a detailed explanation of the hike to Dibbins Hut. Once guests have departed, I'll drive to Mt Loch car park at Mount Hotham and walk the 9km's to meet you at Dibbins Hut. I'll be able to carry some creature comforts with me so expect some extra chocolate and other tasty treats to enjoy in the evening."
This is a really keen company!

The maps are again upside down. Dills.
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Re: Falls Creek to Mt Hotham Alpine Crossing

Postby neilmny » Sat 19 Dec, 2015 10:43 am

Lophophaps wrote: ................You will then be given a map along with a detailed explanation of the hike to Dibbins Hut. Once guests have departed, I'll drive to Mt Loch car park at Mount Hotham and walk the 9km's to meet you at Dibbins Hut. I'll be able to carry some creature comforts with me so expect some extra chocolate and other tasty treats to enjoy in the evening."
This is a really keen company!

The maps are again upside down. Dills.


Keen?..........so they leave their clients unguided and let them find there own way from place to place.........I wonder what they do in an emergency.........run into Dibbins Hut to meet them?????
Looks very dodgy to me. I've never heard of outdoor activity organisers not having staff to accompany their clients.
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Re: Falls Creek to Mt Hotham Alpine Crossing

Postby Lophophaps » Sat 19 Dec, 2015 12:00 pm

neilmny wrote:Keen?..........so they leave their clients unguided and let them find there own way from place to place.........I wonder what they do in an emergency.........run into Dibbins Hut to meet them?????
Looks very dodgy to me. I've never heard of outdoor activity organisers not having staff to accompany their clients.


I was being facetious and factual. Not so keen to let clients wander across the high plains, even on a shortish walk Cope Hut to Dibbins. Carting a load of goodies down Swindlers just to go up the next day is keen.

Agreed, dodgy. Scenerio. Five hours after starting the driver is descending Swindlers Spur. The clients are near Mt Jim, and one twists an ankle, cannot proceed. There's mobile phone reception line of sight to Hotham, so they make a call. Air or ground evacuation, party does not want to go on as it's getting late, so back to Cope Hut. Unless the driver has a sat phone or similar he's out of touch.

Add your own variations like bad weather, no phone reception, take the pole line to Westons or Youngs Hut.

Maybe there needs to be a licensing scheme for professional leaders. We had the Bushwalking and Mountaincraft Leadership Course but it fell victim to funding cuts. It may take another Gadsden or Matters fatality to make the point.
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Re: Falls Creek to Mt Hotham Alpine Crossing

Postby photohiker » Sat 19 Dec, 2015 1:59 pm

neilmny wrote:Keen?..........so they leave their clients unguided and let them find there own way from place to place.........I wonder what they do in an emergency.........run into Dibbins Hut to meet them?????
Looks very dodgy to me. I've never heard of outdoor activity organisers not having staff to accompany their clients.


It's pretty clearly not a guided walk. $449 includes transport to/from Melbourne, a bunch of gear, portering in tents etc, meals and getting camp setup etc. I'd say that would be a bargain for a self-reliant experienced group. $2000 for a guide? I think I'd take the $450 job :D
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Re: Falls Creek to Mt Hotham Alpine Crossing

Postby neilmny » Sat 19 Dec, 2015 3:09 pm

photohiker wrote:
neilmny wrote:Keen?..........so they leave their clients unguided and let them find there own way from place to place.........I wonder what they do in an emergency.........run into Dibbins Hut to meet them?????
Looks very dodgy to me. I've never heard of outdoor activity organisers not having staff to accompany their clients.


It's pretty clearly not a guided walk. $449 includes transport to/from Melbourne, a bunch of gear, portering in tents etc, meals and getting camp setup etc. I'd say that would be a bargain for a self-reliant experienced group. $2000 for a guide? I think I'd take the $450 job :D


A self reliant experienced group wouldn't need the guy in the first place, they'd just do there own thing.
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Re: Falls Creek to Mt Hotham Alpine Crossing

Postby photohiker » Sat 19 Dec, 2015 3:38 pm

neilmny wrote:
photohiker wrote:
neilmny wrote:Keen?..........so they leave their clients unguided and let them find there own way from place to place.........I wonder what they do in an emergency.........run into Dibbins Hut to meet them?????
Looks very dodgy to me. I've never heard of outdoor activity organisers not having staff to accompany their clients.


It's pretty clearly not a guided walk. $449 includes transport to/from Melbourne, a bunch of gear, portering in tents etc, meals and getting camp setup etc. I'd say that would be a bargain for a self-reliant experienced group. $2000 for a guide? I think I'd take the $450 job :D


A self reliant experienced group wouldn't need the guy in the first place, they'd just do there own thing.


Maybe. Or maybe they figured it would cost about as much and they'd have to drive up to the start, with multiple cars, do a car shuffle to get one at the finish (or pay for a bus ride out and then back to the start), (do they have to pay entry and parking in summer?), haul all the gear, setup, cook, etc. I'd probably do it if it was on my list.
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Re: Falls Creek to Mt Hotham Alpine Crossing

Postby north-north-west » Sun 20 Dec, 2015 6:44 am

For $450 each I'd could load three people and their gear in my car, take us all over to the mainland on the ferry, drive up to Falls (or Hotham, depending on the direction we decide to walk), and lead them around the circuit with a sidetrip to Feathertop, and bring everyone back. Four easy days walking - five if we do an extra sidetrip out to the Fainters - all transport costs covered.
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Re: Falls Creek to Mt Hotham Alpine Crossing

Postby photohiker » Sun 20 Dec, 2015 9:39 am

Sure you could.

What if it was just 2 of you? lol.

You'd still have to do the food shopping, carry and cook, setup camp, pay for transport back to your car, etc.

My point is that if the service is good and reliable, I rate $450 for camp convenience over a $2500 full guided 4 day trip. I could also go self supported, but my original post was that the $450 job looked like a fair option, and I still think so. Compare to 3 Capes, this looks better to me, and no blight on the landscape.
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Re: Falls Creek to Mt Hotham Alpine Crossing

Postby Xplora » Sun 20 Dec, 2015 11:21 am

north-north-west wrote:For $450 each I'd could load three people and their gear in my car, take us all over to the mainland on the ferry, drive up to Falls (or Hotham, depending on the direction we decide to walk), and lead them around the circuit with a sidetrip to Feathertop, and bring everyone back. Four easy days walking - five if we do an extra sidetrip out to the Fainters - all transport costs covered.


I agree you could do this but then how much money would you make? That is the point of running a business. Public liability insurance is rising and in addition you have to pay a fee to PV for a permit then you have to advertise and this operation is supplying all the gear which requires a return for investment. Food for the trip also comes out. One trip per year with 4 people would not pay these expenses let alone a wage and fuel so you have to run enough to make it worthwhile. This seems to be a small operation whereas Auswalks have a lot more resources to draw on and they do not have to provide a great deal of expensive equipment. I think the smaller operation will have to change to survive if this project goes ahead but it would appeal to a number of people. Maybe they also offer a guide to those who are not confident navigating or map reading? I do see some issues with this style of operation but in the end it comes down to the operator and the insurance company.
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Re: Falls Creek to Mt Hotham Alpine Crossing

Postby Strider » Sun 20 Dec, 2015 12:09 pm

NNW this would never work. You hate other people too much! :D

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Re: Falls Creek to Mt Hotham Alpine Crossing

Postby north-north-west » Sun 20 Dec, 2015 2:20 pm

It's not hatred. It's more a limited degree of tolerance.

Except for missionisers. And some politicians. And developers. And arsonists. And . . .
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Re: Falls Creek to Mt Hotham Alpine Crossing

Postby photohiker » Sun 20 Dec, 2015 3:50 pm

Xplora wrote: I think the smaller operation will have to change to survive if this project goes ahead but it would appeal to a number of people.


There's the rub. They would only be of use to people who can do their own navigation, so they would always be a small operation. That's a valid alternative to a full support guided operation. Probably they should offer a couple of PLB's for the walkers if they don't already have them. The way tech is now, they could probably pin a satellite logger onto the group for very little cost and keep track of them remotely.
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Re: Falls Creek to Mt Hotham Alpine Crossing

Postby paidal_chalne_vala » Fri 01 Jan, 2016 9:17 am

So what now? . When do we start the civil disobedience campaign ? .
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Re: Falls Creek to Mt Hotham Alpine Crossing

Postby stry » Fri 01 Jan, 2016 2:14 pm

Strider wrote:NNW this would never work. You hate other people too much! :D



It's not hate. NNW simply has commendably high standards, and a low tolerance of the demonstrably foolish.
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Re: Falls Creek to Mt Hotham Alpine Crossing

Postby Xplora » Fri 01 Jan, 2016 3:11 pm

paidal_chalne_vala wrote:So what now? . When do we start the civil disobedience campaign ? .

'
Maybe a bit early for this. Not much point until they put the dollars signs up.
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Re: Falls Creek to Mt Hotham Alpine Crossing

Postby north-north-west » Mon 04 Jan, 2016 6:58 am

stry wrote:
Strider wrote:NNW this would never work. You hate other people too much! :D

It's not hate. NNW simply has commendably high standards, and a low tolerance of the demonstrably foolish.

I like the spin you put on that. Shane Warne couldn't have done better.
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Re: Falls Creek to Mt Hotham Alpine Crossing

Postby donktec » Wed 06 Jan, 2016 4:11 pm

Hi all,
I've come to party a bit late having only discovered this thread after the xmas break - some of which was spent up on the High plains, as it happens. Despite being late for this round of consultation, i'm still sending my feedback to PV and responding to the online surveys - they are still open. Thanks to all for the thoughts and information, i'm adding my voice to opposing this terrible idea.
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Re: Falls Creek to Mt Hotham Alpine Crossing

Postby paidal_chalne_vala » Wed 06 Jan, 2016 7:05 pm

I will be walking the Razorback and the Diamantina Spur this weekend so I will take a closer look at the proposed site of the luxury hut at the High Knob and the terrain on the Diamantina spur. I will bear in mind that newbies with money but little experience or pack carry fitness will be asked to traverse this terrain !
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Re: Falls Creek to Mt Hotham Alpine Crossing

Postby paidal_chalne_vala » Tue 12 Jan, 2016 1:19 pm

I have just come back from a big hike that included hiking solo down the Diamantina spur. That was T O U G H.
No way are you going to get cashed up glampers and newbies to go up or down that track . It is exposed to the elements, very overgrown in sections and is almost 90 degrees steep in some places. I had to climb down on my hands and knees backwards like a crab or on the seat of my pants , forwards in some places and if I slipped and overbalanced with my heavy pack on , it could have been quite serious.

. I hike a lot and I was shattered after doing that. I sat down on the road at the bottom , just spent, ga ga ! Swindler's spur, Machinery Spur are both much easier to ascend or descend and are safer in many ways than the Diamantina spur is. It was just wrong. Once was enough. In snow it would have been even worse !!!.
The saddle at High Knob is an insane place for a soft boy thingy cashed up bogans' lodge , so too is the 1500 M mark on the Diamantina spur. All pure insanity!!.

I shall put a full trip report in the relevant section soon.
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Re: Falls Creek to Mt Hotham Alpine Crossing

Postby stry » Fri 05 Feb, 2016 10:32 pm

I haven't reread the thread to see if the following has been mentioned so please forhgive me if I am restating something.

I have just spent three leisurely days in the area, and considering that this is a project being consulted on and theoretically refined, someone has erected a lot of very new and formal signs evidencing the existence of the crossing walk.

The term "fait accomplit" appears to align with the demonstrated tactics to date.
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