What Track Information do you Like?

[PeterJ]

I have been asked to seek feedback from forum members on what information they like to have about tracks for bushwalking. I will pass on all comments made to this topic to the group developing an internet site to promote tracks in the Hobart and surrounds.

The Hobart City Council is working with the Derwent Estuary program, Glenorchy, Clarence, Kingborough and Derwent Valley Councils on a project to better promote tracks in the Greater Hobart area. One of the outputs of the project will be a website where locals, intra-State, inter-state and international visitors can find information about tracks in the greater Hobart area. The question being posed is what information do people accessing this internet site want to know about these tracks? Examples as follows:

Name of track
Map showing the location of the track
Distance
Level of difficulty
General description about the track
Who can use the track i.e. walkers, bike riders, horse riders, dog walkers
What facilities are available i.e. carpark, toilets, drinking water

The information is sought by the 10th January, and will be much appreciated.

[trepur]

Dear Peter

I used your track notes to get up Mt Ida a couple of weeks ago and they were all that was required. The simplest information is a GPS route and a general description of the terrain. If no GPS route then a starting point and a general idea of where you head. An approximate time is good - although the Ida climb took us a lot longer than you did and it was a lot scrubbier than I imagined.

The information you provide for your other walks is great.

Keep it up.

Rupert

[Marwood]

This is what I look for. May or may not be relevant to those areas you mention:

- gpx trace (with major waypoints a bonus).
- elevation profile.
- relevant topo sheet names/references.
- how to get there & back and/or where to park.
- info on any particular features e.g. lookouts, waterfalls.
- what the surface is like.
- info about any potential difficulties or hazards e.g. river crossings, rock scrambles.
- info on any potential navigation problems.
- info about any untracked sections.
- water supply & reliability.
- possible campsites (tent and/or hammock suitability).

[tastrax]

Hi Peter - a few suggestions

• If they are local walks around Hobart then it would be good to add in the Metro bus routes etc so folks can use them (especially for one way walks and a bus back to the car
• AS 2156 Track class - only because I have been involved in the standards over the years and they still represent a good overview of track conditions
• Pictograms as well as text - remember some folks may not be English speaking - plenty of examples out there - some across several states
• Ability to add gps trace to gps (not for remote walks though)- I have found a couple of sites that are starting to offer this type of facility (sometimes only to members)
• Imagery that reflects what the average punter can take - not something that requires a crane, helicopter and half of the states tourism budget
• Spell out what the punter can expect in real terms (mud, rocks, slippery surfaces etc) - don't make all the walks "Nanny State stuff" - not everyone wants Nature Trails

<My Little Rant> Also, please ensure that tracks are not littered with track markers every fifty feet and maps at every intersection. People need to make a conscious decision to accept the walk and nature on its own terms. I, personally, don't like to see everything tarted up - it creates a real creep whereby folks expect more and more "urbanisation" rather than them becoming more and more accepting of the environment as they venture further and further </End of Rant>

[taswegian]

I will second <My Little Rant> and agree 100% on the need to keep nature walks just that and not be detracted from what one is there for in the first place.

a) Some thing that is important is to date stamp publications so one knows when it was written.
There's nothing wrong with old maps etc but if we know they are old (remember glossy publications sitting in a draw or web pages dont gather cobwebs and become dogeared.

b) Also if needed give some thought to winter versus summer conditions and what impact that may have.

c) A general note on where the nearest fuel may likely to be. Eg don't expect to arrive at Walls of Jerusalem carpark and be able to get fuel nearby.
People coming off the ferries arrive here and I know in past have been told some stupid things in this area. It happens.

d) A big PLEA for people to respect our Tasmanian weather and know it can snow in midsummer and days can start sunny and within an hour be a snowstorm or worse. We don't need any more deaths due to adverse weather and lost walkers.

e) some comment on mobile phone coverage. Again this needs to be contemporary and so dating the publication is important.

[Nuts]

I third Phils rant + any mention of phone coverage (or plb hire (?)) should put the facts after a warning that they are a poor second best to choosing something within capacity and without help?
Though i'm not sure 'the greater hobart area' extends too far bushwards?

[JohnM]

One feature of the Spatial Vision maps which I think is hugely useful is the marking of all track sections in km distances. Makes it really easy to plan walks and know distances at a glance... I ALWAYS underestimate distance when the tracks are really squiggly.

[rucksack]

Ditto to all of the above. I always like to be able to compare like-with-like when I am perusing a guide book, or trail web site, looking for ideas for a new walk. A brief legend, (icons are fine if they are clearly explained at the beginning of the guide), so that one can quickly decide whether the walk interests them or not, is a very useful feature. I am thinking here of a 'thumbnail' with the length of the walk, profile (metres gained and lost), type of terrain traversed, best times to visit, degree of difficulty of the walk, estimate of the likely duration of the walk, availability of safe drinking water on the walk, any public huts or shelters on the walk, and public transport options at both ends of the walk. Guides which make the reader wade through reams of text to decide whether a walk would be interesting or not, or those to the contrary, where a guide is bereft of useful, basic information, don’t do much to encourage one to go walking, or try out a new route. Comprehensive simplicity I am thinking. And yes, photographs that could have been taken by a typical walker on the route are extremely useful in conveying the ‘texture’ of the walk. A picture is worth a thousand words and all of that!

rucksack

[jez_au]

date stamp publications so one knows when it was written

Yes this is a good idea. If you know something is five years old you might check a few things before you start out.

Including web links to where you can find out current trail and park conditions is good too (ie the pages on parks websites which note park and trail closures, bridge wash-aways).

If the trail is more than a few hours, like a full day or more, downloadable GPX files for GPS units are good.

[igor]

GPX files
How to get there and back (car shuffle or public transport)
Easy/hard rating is VERY subjective, I would totally ignore them

[rucksack]

You may Igor, but I think most walkers (experienced and otherwise), do take notice when an unfamiliar walk is described as being very difficult, or conversely, a mere stroll in the park. Those that don't, often end up on the front page of their local paper, or in the back of a rescue helicopter, or, if they are very unlucky, in a large plastic bag strapped underneath the said helicopter.

rucksack

[igor]

well statistically that is not so. If the person went along and has discovered that the track is too hard he/she can always turn back. we frequently use wildwalks site for suggestions and ideas about the walks. Every single time we've discovered that if you divide a suggested timing or difficulty level by two then it would reflect reality more closely. GPS file with profile elevation graph would give me a better idea what to expect. The thing is very frequently on reviews they do show an elevation plot. So the person who has prepared the review did have a gps device. Then why not share the file with others? That I can't understand.

[taswegian]

I would favour some form of 'track difficulty description'.
Elevation profiles are all very well if you can read or interpret them. What is the ratio of horizontal to vertical and what does say, 2:1 exageration mean, and what does it look like in reality.
I could draw a profile that squeezed into a fixed width would frighten the pants off a moderately fit family wanting an easy walk. But due to the vertical exageration it is grossly misleading to the untrained.
For example a profile of the mt Roland track at the back and one of the front.
The horizontal disance is about 1.6 km from north and 7 km from west with not too dissimilar vertical rise. About 800 - 900 m rise.
A profile of that drawn to fit the same page width would look similar due to the different scales and both would look steep or extremely steep, and yet the back track is a doddle, the front track a gut buster. Thats my slant on it.

Its a very subjective attribute of a track description but at least make some attempt to give a description should be offered.

[igor]

point taken, yes without actually experiencing walking on the elevation 100 m over 1 km or 500 m over 9 km one would have trouble deciding whether or not to walk the particular track. And that exactly what happened to us once when we've invited friends of ours to join one walk and sent them all the info including elevation plot. They we so frightened by sharp spikes on the graph that flatly refused to go with us on a walk. So understanding of the elevation level one can get in a gym on a treadmill. Say elevation of 800 m over 1.6 km is 50% elevation. In reality it is like a vertical climb. Treadmills can be adjusted up to 20% incline and you can walk with this elevation very slow, leaning low.

[PeterJ]

Only a week remaining to comment. Close off date is 10 January.

[wildwalks]

we frequently use wildwalks site for suggestions and ideas about the walks. Every single time we've discovered that if you divide a suggested timing or difficulty level by two then it would reflect reality more closely.

Great news - glad you use the website and glad your formula works. I spent some time on this, It is possible to provide accurate distance - thats fairly easy. But accurate walking time is impossible for lots of obvious reasons. But what I have tried hard to do (and this is a hint for the Tassy project) is to use a consistent method for calculating walking time. My thinking is that the time should be just on the longer side of a 'typical user'. Once you have done a couple of walks within a parks system you should be quickly know how the timing fits your walking style.


With grading. Again I use the AS 2156.1 - 2001 There is a lot of pressure to dump this and use a new system Developed out of Victoria. One benefit (I would suggest the only benefit) is that it focuses more on providing information about the track - rather than just the grading. But the AS 2156.1 also allows for this - it is just rarely used. The new Victorian system ignores two safety elements from the AS that are critical for beginners and I therefore think the use of the Vic system is dangerous and I would strongly advice against using it. The AS 2156.1 is not perfect either, but can be improved upon.
<Start My rant>
NSW NPWS is adopting the Victorian system - I think it is a terrible move - I just do not understand how a Govt department can ignore the safety recommendation of an Australian Standard.
<end my rant> thanks I feel much better now

A few other bits (since my e-mail the other day)
Can I also suggest that the Tassy system considers
1) the needs of people with English as a second Language. The use of pictograms and photos on information (if done well) can convey messages better than text.
2) letting people know where (eg URL) to find weather forecasts and Park closure information

Matt

[Liamy77]

ideally for me:
gpx file, elevation profile, location map / co-ordinates, review date, difficulty, description notes, history & points of interest on the walk, condition of access to & from walk