Forbidden peaks

[Pika]

"In saying this - how many peaks in australia are ACTUALLY forbidden?"


Good point slparker.

In retrospect probably worth considering while I was making rather ridiculous comments about Leprechauns etc.

Probably very few.

[photohiker]

Read the non argument posts and you will find there are plenty of forbidden peaks.

I guess if you're happy to trespass then you could ignore most of them. That doesn't mean they are not forbidden.

[geoskid]

Could the mods please move this cultural/spiritual/bogan/ignorance/etc argument out of the Forbidden Peaks thread?

This is supposed to be

A list of mountains with access either restricted, actively discouraged, or ambiguously discouraged:

As originated by the original poster. Filling this thread with argumentum ad nauseum about the respect or otherwise of cultural or personal beliefs is trashing the thread.

The list will be useful to some, perhaps any additional peaks can be included in the first post. That way, those with only a superficial interest in the topic dont have to read too much. I find what other people think interesting, especially some of the analogies used to support their views.

[slparker]

Read the non argument posts and you will find there are plenty of forbidden peaks.

if you read the non-argument posts you will find 9 peaks in australia that are mentioned (although some are groups or ranges) of which 5 are aboriginal sites. The majority seem to be freehold, conservation or on military ranges.

The concept of 'forbidden' has hardly been explained. I take it that 'forbidden' means legally proscribed? MT Barney for example is not 'forbidden'; it has special significance for local aborigines who see it as a place to avoid. This doesn't make it forbidden as some on this forum would have you believe. When expressing views on 'forbidenness' or significance it might be wise to stick to the facts.

A more pertinent, and famous example is Uluru; which, also, is not 'forbidden' - at least for now. For an opinion piece on this well known example see here:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-06-03/m ... ru/4728726.

For actual 'forbiddenness' I think that we would have to look at archeological sites or sacred sites and even then they are usually legally proscribed. For example, areas of Arnhem Land require permit for non indigenous persons to enter.

perhaps the use of the word 'forbidden' is unwise.

[north-north-west]

G’day Icefest,

My position is much simpler than the measurement of harm. I chose freedom from religion. The shackles of Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Animism or Totemism do not bind. But lets be fair, a rejection of religion is not necessarily egoism. It may be, for example, rationalism.

A popular sentiment expressed within this thread seems to be that while it is fine to reject religious values more generally - we must make an exception of totemic beliefs for sentimental reasons. I’m afraid I don’t agree. If we are to refrain from climbing a rock to appease totemists, why should females not succumb to the demands of the Islamists for modesty, or the Christians for chastity? If we do not comply, an imaginary offence of similar gravity will have been committed in all three cases.

A sinner she may be but let us not condemn Alizee Sery..

I can't recall ever agreeing with you before, but I do on this one.

Could the mods please move this cultural/spiritual/bogan/ignorance/etc argument out of the Forbidden Peaks thread?

This is supposed to be

A list of mountains with access either restricted, actively discouraged, or ambiguously discouraged:

As originated by the original poster. Filling this thread with argumentum ad nauseum about the respect or otherwise of cultural or personal beliefs is trashing the thread.

Seconded, thirded, fourthed, etced. Please. It's a fascinating discussion but it doesn't belong here.

[Happy Pirate]

The Nimbin Rocks and the Glasshouse Mountains can be added to the list.

Quite a fuss at the Glasshouse Mountains. Read more:

Woman's naked mountain climb

Naked climber in danger says elder

Jess.jpg

Cheers,

Maddog.

I was about to post the same link.

I do find it ironic (and a little sad at the corruption of someone's own culture) that an aboriginal elder could claim cultural offence and blasphemy at a person walking naked in the bush.
Did aborigines put on clothes as part of their tradition to climb these mountains?

I think it shows most of all the mutability of culture and how many 'traditions' are clung to even after their relevance or contextual understanding has been lost.
Cultural sensitivity is fine but when the culture you are tiptoeing around is of itself corrupted (and potentially offensive to the source culture) how seriously should we have to take it.
Culture is a continually changing set of behaviours. Culture is only fixed and immutable when it has died and therefore no longer relevant.

Steve

BTW We have no idea of how much aboriginal culture changed over 40,000 year but it must have been massive. Think of any other culture in that same time period. We only have the the recent centurys' snapshot but we like to think that this represents all of the past 40.000 years. Nonsense on stilts - but still seems to be the attitude displayed in much cultural anthropology discussion.

[Happy Pirate]

Could the mods please move this cultural/spiritual/bogan/ignorance/etc argument out of the Forbidden Peaks thread?

This is supposed to be
A list of mountains with access either restricted, actively discouraged, or ambiguously discouraged:
As originated by the original poster. Filling this thread with argumentum ad nauseum about the respect or otherwise of cultural or personal beliefs is trashing the thread.

Seconded, thirded, fourthed, etced. Please. It's a fascinating discussion but it doesn't belong here.

NNW & Others;
respectfully

There is little or no official regulation of culturally 'forbidden' peaks so this IS a discussion primarily about cultural relevance and the personal reaction.
You can't present such a list without some discussion of that list's relevance.
Hence the original question was always going to be about perception rather than regulation and one's own response to that.

Do you have an official list of 'Forbidden Peaks' that could put an end to any debate?

Steve

[icefest]

BTW We have no idea of how much aboriginal culture changed over 40,000 year but it must have been massive. Think of any other culture in that same time period. We only have the the recent centurys' snapshot but we like to think that this represents all of the past 40.000 years. Nonsense on stilts - but still seems to be the attitude displayed in much cultural anthropology discussion.

Less than you might think: http://research.usc.edu.au/vital/access ... an+stories
Article by the authors: http://theconversation.com/ancient-abor ... evel-36010

[north-north-west]

NNW & Others;
respectfully

There is little or no official regulation of culturally 'forbidden' peaks so this IS a discussion primarily about cultural relevance and the personal reaction.
You can't present such a list without some discussion of that list's relevance.
Hence the original question was always going to be about perception rather than regulation and one's own response to that.

Fair enough.

What is the difference between 'disrespect' for requests from traditional custodians not to climb, and trespassing on private property? Has no-one who insists on (for instance) not climbing Uluru ever jumped a fence into unused bushland to claim a peak? Or vice versa.

[Happy Pirate]

Fair enough.

What is the difference between 'disrespect' for requests from traditional custodians not to climb, and trespassing on private property? Has no-one who insists on (for instance) not climbing Uluru ever jumped a fence into unused bushland to claim a peak? Or vice versa.[/quote]

Good point. We all have our cultural taboos.
The issue with the Glass house mountains was about nudity not climbing though (maybe a little off topic) which shows a corruption of the source culture we are asked to respect.

[neilmny]

..........The issue with the Glass house mountains was about nudity not climbing though (maybe a little off topic) which shows a corruption of the source culture we are asked to respect.

Was the issue nudity or just the climbing............I read it that the climbing is the problem.
Maybe some classic reporter context adjustment or presentation has taken place.

[Happy Pirate]

No - she compared it to walking naked into a church. A form of blasphemy. People climb the mountain all the time without comment.

[neilmny]

The reporter did not quote Ms Fesl on that but did quote on other comments.
Also - from the article
"Ms Fesl (pictured left) said the Glasshouse Mountains were sacred places to the Gubbi Gubbi who had never climbed them.
Respect was shown by looking up, she said, not standing on top and looking down."

[Happy Pirate]

Eve Fesl said the woman, 24-year-old Jess Kelley, had desecrated a sacred place, committing the equivalent of walking naked into a Christian church.

“It's disgusting,'' Ms Fesl said.

[maddog]

No indigenous consultation on mountain climbs.

A can of worms has been opened by the State Government announcing that they have allocated fundiong for projects in the Glass House Mountains National Park and will soon commence reopening the summit climbs on Mt Beerwah and Mt Tibrogargan…

Read more (pg 4 – 5)

Also:

Once were seven - now we must protect the last sisters

Cheers,

Maddog.

[neilmny]

Eve Fesl said the woman, 24-year-old Jess Kelley, had desecrated a sacred place, committing the equivalent of walking naked into a Christian church.

Above is not a quote of what Ms Fesl said it is an interpretation of what was said possibly designed to inspire some sort of reaction.......

“It's disgusting,'' Ms Fesl said.

This is presented as a quote of what Ms Fesl actually said.

[maddog]

G'day Neilmny,

The paraphrased bit seems consistent with what was quoted though:

"It's disgusting,'' Ms Fesl said.

“What a stupid thing to do."

“She may find out in the future that it was not a wise thing to do."

“Something may happen to her."

“This woman has put herself in a very dangerous place.''

Pointing the bone?

Cheers,

Maddog.

[neilmny]

I'd agree it does seem consistent but why not a direct quote then. I can't help thinking there was adjustment for impact and to inspire reaction as it has.

[Happy Pirate]

I'd agree it does seem consistent but why not a direct quote then. I can't help thinking there was adjustment for impact and to inspire reaction as it has.

I think you're reading too much into this mate. It's typical journalistic style - you can't present big chunks of quotes without paraphrasing or you're not reporting, just quoting.
cheers
Steve

[slparker]

There's a point to address here:
It is asserted above that it is hypocritical for Ms fesl to object to a naked person on Mt. T. Because aboriginal people would have been naked ( or near naked) traditionally.
The point is, really, not that nakedness was the norm 200 years ago but that nakedness is a former of disrespect now. under current mores and social norms to be naked and to enter any sacred, or special, space inappropriately clothed would be seen as offensive, or at least insensitive , by most or all modern cultures, even those with quite different historical traditions.
TBH it would irritate me to see a naked bushwalker on a walk, even a young pretty one. Time and place, people.
Consideration of others is a small cost, but clearly one too dear for many to pay.
Late edit: this Part of the discussion really belongs in the 'walking on traditional lalands' thread anyway, as Mt T is not 'forbidden'in any way.