Experiences of Recreational hunting in national parks?

[Moondog55]

Why do you keep confusing gun crime with hunting?

[Tony]

And just to prove that nutters can get guns this was said last week by Shooters Party's Robert Brown to a Greens MP

"Unfortunately we're in a modern era so I can't take you outside and beat you to death."

I wonder what would have happened if he had a gun on him at the time.

Tony

[Moondog55]

Hell I often think exactly the same thing when I see that idiot Laury Levy on television

[Tony]

Why do you keep confusing gun crime with hunting?

Because they both use guns.

And btw you brought gun crime into this discussion.

Tony

[forest]

Tony I feel that more needs to be done for the prevention of ''Illegal'' firearms. All those shootings you talk about are done by criminals, not registered firearms or there owners. It's sadening to hear of your bad experience with a firearms owner. Just remember though that he isn't the normal type. Unfortunatly there are bad eggs in all hobbies, I've met a few nutters walking too but I don't paint these people as the regular crowd. If they were I wouldn't keep walking. I'm yet to meet a crazed mental gun owner at any of the 3 clubs I'm a member of. Yep, there are people I don't agree with but they are sane none the less.

Okay back on topic a little.

We spent yesterday up on Barrington Tops NP. It was a warm 0c and the tree's were raining ice all day. Overnight it snowed a little. Fantastic I say and there were plenty of people up there enjoying the cold. ( My wife wasn't one of them )
Sadly the NP is boarded by Stewarts Brook SF. There were a group of 6 guys camped at Pole Blue (NP Campground) that were also hunting in the SF. There is only the one undercover ''common'' shelter with a fireplace at Pole Blue. As one would imagine it was a popular place to be in the cold for lunch. This group of hunters were all camo clad, noisy and very vocal about the enjoyed morning hunt. Also 2 of these ''conservation warriors'' had rambo sized knives on there belts. It's an intimidating scene for the general park user. (Any hunter know's you don't require knifes with a 9" blade to butcher a animal, let alone walk around in public with it)
I know we didn't enjoy sharing the shelter with these fools, that's even as a hunter I didn't enjoy there company. I felt very sorry for the young couple that drove up to experience snow for the first time with there 5month old and 3yr old sons. They just kept glancing nervously towards the group, you could just tell they didn't like it even though they sort of weren't doing much wrong. (I don't think they are allowed to camp in the NP with guns, I will chase this up on Monday, yes I have there rego numbers)

Sorry but it just feels wrong to blend the groups and when the shooters are in your face it's something that many people will shy away from.

I not backwards in going forwards so I had a dig at the hunters and told them to keep it down about there extreme prowess and foul language. They didn't like that one bit but unlike many I'm not intimidated by them as I'm used to big gruff men at work, that and I'm not scared of guns. (That would have been locked up and secure but many don't understand this)

The rest of the park users were appaled I said something, but they were gladdend they when they left after me chipping them. Many congratulated me once they drove off and all expressed concern on seeing them there. Now that concern was even there when they were not doing anything personally to hurt anyone. A few questioned weather they were meant to be be camped there ? What's wrong with camping in the SF 5 km's down the road.

NP's and hunters don't mix. It's just blending users of far ends of the scale.
The quite ones are fine but like anything, it's the loud fools that give all a bad name. I'm just worried this will be the norm eventually ??
Unlike the ANP in Vic we will have people shooting at everything "feral" or "game". I'm a fan of the Vic hunting model and commend the dedicated sambar hunters.

I will not go into what these "conservation warrior's" were talking about but I can say from experience they were not in any means up there "hunting" in the traditional sense. Most of the chat was about a single rabbit ?? Wow, big times boys
I certainly wouldn't grant these turkeys access to private land (ie: farm) based on there appearance and behaviour. I fear this is the reason they hunt in SF's as it's a simple stupid test and boya, off we go for a "hunt".....

I just hope this isn't a sign of things to come.

[Moondog55]

As a cammo clad hunter who happens to use a 15inch khukuri to joint big animals would like to apologise for the behaviour of those "Rambo" idiots, and I do think idiots is the correct terminology; who ruined your time in the shelter. Such behaviour is not the norm with the people I have spent time with, although they do have a robust sense of humour at times.

[forest]

Such behaviour is not the norm with the people I have spent time with

As a hunter me neither, Not ONCE !!

BUT It apears that the majority of times I bump into hunters in SF's it's this type. I don't know why but this is what is bothering me. The good quite regular hunters could have been camped up there I we would never have known. It's just the loud ones that stand out.

[maddog]

And just to prove that nutters can get guns this was said last week by Shooters Party's Robert Brown to a Greens MP

"Unfortunately we're in a modern era so I can't take you outside and beat you to death."

I wonder what would have happened if he had a gun on him at the time.

Tony

I note with interest that the Greens MP was happy to step outside with Mr Brown, but it would seem the offer was not accepted. Todays SMH, continuing with the theme, has an amusing article about that true gentleman MP Robert Brown and his fitness to hold a gun licence.

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/shooters-mp-c ... 20uym.html

[Moondog55]

And you ACTUALLY believe something a politician said??

[sambar358]

Forest.....that's an unfortunate experience for sure and good on you for having a crack at them for their loud and unsocial behaviour. While not knowing the rules up there (but I have hunted on some private land around Stewarts Brook...lovely country) I'd be doubtful if they were permitted to be in the NP with firearms and they would certainly be restricted to the SF for their hunting. These blokes should have been "booked-in" with the NSW Game Council for that location and that particular time and if I were you I'd consider contacting the GC and having a chat to one of the fellas about your experience...especially if you have a few rego numbers. That sort of behaviour is not-on and certainly doesn't do the Parks proposal any good at all and I'd be pretty confident that the GC would be receptive to your concerns as for their SF and NP hunting to work and gain some level of public support we all have to get on and share the land without cranking each other up at all.

This will likely be one of the drawbacks of "all species hunting" in NP's if it involves recreational hunters. While I'd be confident in saying that the dedicated deer guys are mostly low-key, well behaved and conscious of their public image the same can't be said for some of the others with any degree of certainly because there will be hunters with such a wide range of interests, attitudes and backgrounds (and levels of competency) likely to be participating and unfortunately there will be a percentage of these that are absolute DH's and they are the ones that'll cause all the grief. Down here in Vic we have a pretty extensive 4WD track network into our sambar range with many nice little secluded campsites along rivers or creek systems and these are ideal to base-camp at and to hunt out from.

What I have noticed in my regular fly fishing forays into SE NSW over many summers is that there are fewer vehicle tracks into country and far more "road-end" type camping sites that seem to concentrate people together. Many of the existing 4WD tracks in Parks (the Kosi Park in particular) also are locked with "Management Vehicles Only" signage again forcing people together rather than encouraging dispersed camping as seems to be the case here both on public land and in the ANP. Most of us go bush to escape the rat-race but being compelled to camp at a communal road-end site may still provide some recreatioanl relief but it does come with a few potential issues as well.

Down here while most of us hunt in some form of cammo we like to encourage sambar hunters not to parade around in it at campsites or where there are other members of the public gathered because it certainly can be a bit confronting and give that "Rambo" impression and ditto for big sheath knives and ammo on belts....just shows a total disrepect for other bush users and is basically ignorant and rude. The "in ya face" type hunter is doing the rest of us no favours....but they are out there unfortunately as you've found out. Have a think about my Game Council suggestion as I do think that it'd be worth-while follwing thru with that. Cheers

sambar358

[FatCanyoner]

I'm only just catching up on this thread, so have only skimmed a fair number of the comments (sorry about that, but there are heaps!).
I just thought I'd mention a recent experience I had a couple months ago. I was camping at Newnes on a Saturday night with a largish group (about 14 people, including a couple kids). During the night I wandered around to say G'day to a few of the rowdier groups around camp fires (I quite enjoy having a laugh with new people). Anyway, I stumbled on a group of about 20 blokes in their 20's, obviously very well lubricated and having a great time with the boys. I quickly joined the conversation and sat down around the fire. As Aussie guys do, there was a bit of playful hanging *&%$#! on people, and I joined in, poking some fun at a quiet guy on the opposite side of the fire. When I saw a couple nervous looks from the others I looked closer and realised he was cradling something in his lap. It was a loaded cross bow! Thankfully I joked my way out of it, talking up the fact that I'd picked the most dangerous guy in the circle to hang *&%$#! on, but the heart did miss a beat. After that they openly told me they had spent the day hunting in the surrounding area (National Park) and had claimed a few roos etc. I didn't ask if they were licensed, but it did give me an insight into the rogue element that are often drawn to firearms and hunting.

[maddog]

I note with interest that the Greens MP was happy to step outside with Mr Brown, but it would seem the offer was not accepted. Todays SMH, continuing with the theme, has an amusing article about that true gentleman MP Robert Brown and his fitness to hold a gun licence.

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/shooters-mp-c ... 20uym.html

And you ACTUALLY believe something a politician said??

Do I believe he said it? Yes, it is a matter of public record. Do I believe he meant it? No. Do I believe the fact that he said it speaks of his poor character? Yes.

Edit: Would I like to meet this fool when bushwalking in a National Park. No, certainly not (particularly if I had my children with me)

Cheers

[Moondog55]

Parliamentary privilege, LMAO

He is probably a nice bloke when his chain isn't being yanked.
Poor character? Bloke is a politician, it seems to be a mandatory pre-requisite goes along with fiddling the expense account and drinking too much duty free booze in the members bar.

[sambar358]

FatCanyoner....another interesting weekend at a busy "designated camping ground" by the sound of it. Our style of dispersed camping in the ANP just sounds better by the minute.

20 young bucks well-lubed and armed....seems like a good place to stay away from. An observation : Crossbow...prohibited weapon & illegal. Loaded weapon in a populous place....very illegal as well as highly dangerous of course. Hunting in a National Park....illegal. Killing (or attempting to kill) kangaroos....illegal. Doing it with a prohibited weapon....also illegal & likely a big fine or far worse ! Also probably without any sort of licence and Mr. Crossbow's mates would all be much the same.....and if they were rolled-over by the Law this list would likely be added to significantly. These are the clowns that give us all grief....you as a recreationalist and me as a hunter and I for one don't offer any excuses for these types as aI don't regard these types as "fellow hunters" at all. Pity a NP Ranger or the local copper didn't drop by and round the lot of them up. Like down here....maintaining an adequate enforcement presence in a big area is very difficult and reporting stuff afterwards often doesn't cut the mustard...but it's worth doing anyway as it may highlight an on-going problem in an area that then could attract some Police or NP Ranger presence. Cheers

sambar358

[maddog]

He is probably a nice bloke when his chain isn't being yanked.

Are you suggesting that he might be a little emotionally unstable under these conditions?

[Moondog55]

I would rather hazard a guess that he was taking advantage of his right under "parliamentary privilege" to let loose with his true feelings.
We are all emotionally unstable at various times, I have seen police officers loose their rag more times than I like to remember and they carry pistols all the time.

[maddog]

I would rather hazard a guess that he was taking advantage of his right under "parliamentary privilege" to let loose with his true feelings.
We are all emotionally unstable at various times, I have seen police officers loose their rag more times than I like to remember and they carry pistols all the time.

But to continue with the hypothetical, a policeman that 'lost his rag' and threatened to assault a rival in such a way would be dismissed (assuming the allegation could be proved). A member of any respectable political party who 'lost his rag' and threatened to assault a member of the opposing side of politics in such a way would be forced to resign (again assuming the allegation was proven), regardless of parliamentary privilege. But what of the Shooters representative who 'lost his rag' assuming the same conditions of proof?

Mr Brown will be more fun than Cactus Katter, though perhaps less intelligent.

Cheers

Last edited by maddog on Sun 24 Jun, 2012 7:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[flyfisher]

Seems to be a lot of fairly extreme,emotive exagerations in this debate. (threatening to murder, big gruff men etc)

Maybe the bloke chipping the big gruff men was the more agressive type. Definite stereotyping of hunters.

Sambar358, Moondog55 etc have been very patient and tollerant in the face of severe ctiticism of their interest.

I am not a hunter, but I don't like to see all the "wotiff" stuff put up to discredit all hunters and shooters.

[maddog]

Seems to be a lot of fairly extreme,emotive exagerations in this debate. (threatening to murder, big gruff men etc)

Maybe the bloke chipping the big gruff men was the more agressive type. Definite stereotyping of hunters.

Sambar358, Moondog55 etc have been very patient and tollerant in the face of severe ctiticism of their interest.

I am not a hunter, but I don't like to see all the "wotiff" stuff put up to discredit all hunters and shooters.

G'Day Flyfisher,

FYI I personally have nothing against hunting or shooters. Nor has their been 'severe criticism' of the practice of hunting, or of hunters generally, in this thread. The criticism that has appeared within this thread, has largely been directed against claims of the 'environmental benefits' of recreational hunting being used to justify an expansion of the activity to include NSW National Parks, and concerns regarding public safety and the amenity of the area from the same. As part of this, the proponents have been asked to justify those claims.

As to a discussion of the reported comments in the SMH, I will edit my post to avoid causing any offence, though are they not odd things for an MP to be saying?

Last edited by maddog on Sun 24 Jun, 2012 7:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[Moondog55]

Actually; given the propensity of Victorian police to shoot first and ask questions later ( a reaction I am sure to all the police killed lately) I am afraid of the police as much as I am of the criminals with illegal guns as the anger management and dispute resolution training of the police is minimal.
This is speaking as the proud father of a policewoman BTW.
Police would not be silly enough to do so with witnesses

[maddog]

Actually; given the propensity of Victorian police to shoot first and ask questions later ( a reaction I am sure to all the police killed lately) I am afraid of the police as much as I am of the criminals with illegal guns as the anger management and dispute resolution training of the police is minimal.
This is speaking as the proud father of a policewoman BTW.
Police would not be silly enough to do so with witnesses

Moondog55,

I must admit I am generally not particularly concerned regarding police, shooters, or criminals with guns, etc., though I concede the States monopoly of violence vs the rights of the individual theme is of some interest and has some legitimacy in jurisprudence.

What I would like to see is the environmental claims made of so called 'conservation hunting' backed up by the proponents with some evidence of more credibility than 'every one shot is one less in the world' type claims. Ultimately, along with safety and amenity issues, the legitimacy of recreational hunting within National Parks depends on this point.

So what is the evidence that that recreational hunting within the Parks is of environmental benefit (if any)?

Cheers.

Last edited by maddog on Sun 24 Jun, 2012 8:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[Moondog55]

I have no interest in the data to support that argument or any other.
My interest is in my own hunting, and I have never made any claims about the success or otherwise of recreational hunting being a force in reducing feral animals except that if I could make a difference I would take the opportunity to do so.
I too have been on the wrong side of a loaded weapon on more than one occasion and I was scared and concerned; but of the bloke holding the weapon, not of the shotgun being held.
I have how-ever taken an opposite stance because of the confusion in some forum members minds in the diffeence between criminal behaviour with illegal weapons and legitimate hunting with legal firearms.

[forest]

Seems to be a lot of fairly extreme,emotive exagerations in this debate. (threatening to murder, big gruff men etc)

Maybe the bloke chipping the big gruff men was the more agressive type. Definite stereotyping of hunters.

So I was exagerating was I ??
Last I looked it's still illegal to hunt in NSW NP's (I don't think they were hunting in the actual NP though, just camping in it). I view a public shelter in a NP main campground with kids in it just like the local shops. Bad behaviour in any manner shouldn't happen. It was just a shame that these guys were camo clad as it was a clear message what they were doing to the rest of the public. It brings disrispect to all hunters, good or bad.
As a note I didn't swear at them but just politely asked a few general hunting questions and pointed out a few things and questioned them being there. There response was crude and agressive but they left. If they were doing no wrong why did they feel the need to leave ?? I would have been happy for them to stay and tone it down a little.

Do you approve of wearing a big knife in public ?? (I'm not talking about your general utility farm knife here)

Sorry but did you even read what I had written, Or do you realise that I'm a regular hunter too. Obvioulsy you did not. I am not trying to stereotype hunters, Gees I don't wanna shoot myself in the foot. I'm mearly pointing out that the guys "I" have run into in NSW SF's seem to be the fools. But I do know that most hunters you wouldn't even see or realise they were hunters. It's the fools that bring disrespect to us all.

Maybe I am the agressive type but I'm not one to stand around when I can see wrong just to be "the nice guy". It was clear these guys were doing wrong.
Just to clear up that the knives these two were carrying looked more like the ones you purchase of the engraver dude in the shops or from the smokes shop. (Hence the generalisation comment "Rambo" knives)
I had a good look and was more amused that someone would actually take one into the field.

Give me a good svord drop point or curved skinner any day

(but I have hunted on some private land around Stewarts Brook...lovely country)

Might bump into you up that way one day. It's an area I hunt often (on private land) The SF is up on the actual tops more above Moonan Flats next to the dingo gate than actual Stewarts Brook itself.

This will likely be one of the drawbacks of "all species hunting" in NP's if it involves recreational hunters. While I'd be confident in saying that the dedicated deer guys are mostly low-key, well behaved and conscious of their public image the same can't be said for some of the others with any degree of certainly because there will be hunters with such a wide range of interests, attitudes and backgrounds (and levels of competency) likely to be participating and unfortunately there will be a percentage of these that are absolute DH's and they are the ones that'll cause all the grief.

As a very keen deer hunter this is what has bothered me all along. The idiot factor.

Down here while most of us hunt in some form of cammo we like to encourage sambar hunters not to parade around in it at campsites

I have no issue what so ever with camo, I have a wardobe full of the stuff. It was more the behaviour, public wearing of "stupid looking" knives and the fact that they were in the NP that got up my goat.

And you ACTUALLY believe something a politician said??

They are like children when on show. Sad these people are running our country.....
I'm sure if you dug that most politican's make crude remarks at one another.
Has you seen Robert Brown.... I have and he's about 140kgs and not the most spritely looking fello. I don't think he would last long in the ring.

[Moondog55]

Like most people in Australia I have very little faith in our politicians and lawmakers, and certainly very little trust in their personal integrity or ethics.

Does anybody remember the country wide survey done a few years ago where the polling suggested that drug dealers were more trusted than the used car salesmen, police or politicians?
Perhaps a boxing ring in the parliamentary basement isn't such a bad idea?

[Greenie]

The shooters and fishers party have provided some information on how it will operate from the 27 of December http://www.shootersandfishers.org.au/news/faqs-hunting-in-national-parks

[madmacca]

I think the common element in the incidents that capelsound and phan_TOM describe is that is too easy to bring in large quantities of beer with 4WD's. Booze and guns just don't mix. I have no problems with genuine stalkers like sambar.

[Pteropus]

A news article on a particular recent incident involving illegal hunters in a NSW NP -> http://www.abc.net.au/local/stories/201 ... 568593.htm

[forest]

That's a lovely story Eh !!

Just what every family wants to experience in a NP.

Sadly these probably will not be the ones following the strict rules and regs that will be in place.
It's a shame that a small "dangerous" few will end up giving all hunters a bad name.

*&%$#! Fools !!

[Earthling]

"During the recent school holidays a horrified family were confronted by a group of hunters driving into a camping ground in a south east National Park randomly shooting kangaroos. In front of the distressed family camped in the remote but popular National Park they shot a number of kangaroos and loaded some onto a vehicle before driving off, leaving dead and maimed animals behind."

I wonder if they will be charged and if so what the sentence will be...prison time would be nice. Bit of reformation.

[TerraMer]

Time to chime in.I have been holding back because I am guilty of judging humans who enjoy killing other living beings

Regarding this most recent story...
I am familiar with this NP having lived near it, walked through it and collected many photos of illegal logging.
It would be interesting to note the calibre ( ) and the high percentage of locals living in townships and localities close to this NP who participate in hunting and culling. It is also of interest to note that there have been many reports of local farmers shooting down wedge tailed eagles, blowing up wombat burrows, lethal trapping of bandicoots, etc. Local forestry contractors have been found guilty of killing wildlife in large numbers including wombats and macropods in the belief the wildlife were destroying their trees.
These are the kinds of hunters and land users living around the SE Forests NP. Although this is disgusting, abominable behaviour it doesn't surprise me in the slightest.
This is a NP with one of the smallest staff and effective management of it is proving impossible

I'm surprised KNP isn't having more issues like SEFNP. It was gruesome stumbling across beheaded brumbies killed just inside the park, within 500m of the skitube. I will never get that out of my head. This hasn't been an isolated case in KNP in recent years.

As many have already shared, although I don't agree with the killing of any living being unless to put something out of it's misery, national parks don't have the resources to manage it and there will always be idiots who have no respect for life or rules. Many of the stories in this tread are evidence to that.