4wders. Are they all bogans?

[ollster]

I've deliberatly avoided bumper stickers because of the whole, hope my car isn't torched while I walk thing....

doogs car would only get torched because it's so easily confused with a marshmallow.

[doogs]

Doogs could have put a bit more thought into the topic title

Meh...thinking is overrated!!
sorry if anyone was offended I was only trying to provoke a lively discusion

I've deliberatly avoided bumper stickers because of the whole, hope my car isn't torched while I walk thing....

doogs car would only get torched because it's so easily confused with a marshmallow.

It'd never happen, I always park beside a fuschia hedge and my car becomes invisible (well apart from my "I only drink rum cus I can't spell bourbon sticker"

[corvus]

Are these the Bogans we are talking about
http://thingsboganslike.com/about/
corvus

[doogs]

Are these the Bogans we are talking about
http://thingsboganslike.com/about/
corvus

If you click on the link at the start of the topic you will see a bogan, I was just interested to hear if most others are of the same ilk. As mentioned before, we bushwalkers get labeled left wing greenies so why not label 4wders bogans? Nothing more fun than stereotyping people?
Hope you enjoyed your Haggis,neeps and tatties for dinner whilst wearing your kilt and playing the bagpipes

[ollster]

Are these the Bogans we are talking about
http://thingsboganslike.com/about/
corvus

Interesting list of names. I especially liked "Awesome", "Notorious", and "Zero". The rest were the typical mix of horrendous spelling/deliberate misspelling, derivatives of "-ayden", and lots of girls names that sound like "Shanaylia".

Ol'starr

[corvus]

Are these the Bogans we are talking about
http://thingsboganslike.com/about/
corvus

If you click on the link at the start of the topic you will see a bogan, I was just interested to hear if most others are of the same ilk. As mentioned before, we bushwalkers get labeled left wing greenies so why not label 4wders bogans? Nothing more fun than stereotyping people?
Hope you enjoyed your Haggis,neeps and tatties for dinner whilst wearing your kilt and playing the bagpipes

See you Jimmy you are the Choochter no me and you may well have been the origin of the Bogan(propensity to kill wild life and drink home made usquebaugh and have Tartan or Saltire tats) unlike us urban bred city slickers wei oor scrumpy 'n buckfast
So whoos the bogan then eh!!
corvus

[Macca81]

Im a 4wder and a bushwalker... whats that make me?


In all honesty though, i used to be a member of a tassie 4wd site, but i dont frequent it much anymore. Most of the people on it are pretty good, but there are half a dozen who just make it crap. Problem is, it might only be a couple of people, but they are always the loudest... Same with this situation. Roothy can be a bit of an alright bloke, i have seen a fair number of the DVDs with him in them, but he is also a silly old bugger with silly old views. It seems that in this instance, someone in the editors room thought it would be a good idea to let him loose with those ideas... Looks pretty bad now really.

[Kinsayder]

I thought that was the contention Nuts. I've got a Greens sticker on my car. Until recently we lived in Brunswick, which made it pretty par for the course, but then we moved to Ballarat. I've not had any reaction since moving here but it might be due to the low literacy levels... Regardless, I've got my beliefs, I'll stand by them and not be put off by anything.

[Nuts]

haha, and i defend your right to bare stickers!!!..
(ftr i have never been a member of SSAA (and had the sthn cross sticker cause.. well.. i like the sthn cross))

Is a bogan an urban redneck?

[Kinsayder]

Thanks, Nuts. Not sure about bogans being urban rednecks. It's a pretty good point though! They probably are across most identifiers, although I might not be the greatest authority. A little while ago I was having dinner with the in-laws and we got to talking about bogans with most at the table at least ticking a couple of boxes but I really struggled. Although I do like some of the early Bon Scott AC DC, not sure where that gets me.

[flyfisher]

Yeah, reckon most 4w drivers probably have a little bit and a minority are out and out ratbags.
I do own one and do use it in the bush. So I must be a bogan.
I have driven the Saw Back Range track, the Lake Ina track, (many times and just love it) the Pillans lake track, Lake Olive and Lake Naomi track, West coast tracks, North east Tassie tracks and the old Lake Fanny track, just to name a few.
Also walked many tracks, WOJ 6 or 9 times, Cape Pillar, Lake Gwendy, Lake Malbena, Lake Explorer, Junction lake and the Never Never and Frenchmans cap to name a few, and there are many more. More mud on Frenchmans than 4wd's could ever make.
I was one of the early members of this forum and am very much an environmentally concious person. Also an early and current member of the BWT Strollers.
But I also think that there are a few very greedy folk out there who would like to have most of Tassie just for bushwalking, excluding all those that don't fit their ideals.
I am also a member of the Landrover Owners club of Tasmania, who are very mature in their outlook, and like to get on with all other outdoor lovers.
So if the above makes me a bogan, then I am one.

Thanks to other posters such as Ollster, Ent, etc for their balanced view of things.

Flyfisher

[flyfisher]

Re: 4wders. Are they all bogans?

Postby tastrax » Thu 07 Jun, 2012 2:05 pm
Well I hope they are not all bogans because I am one, however I am not a hard core 4WD'r. I think 4wd action has a bit of a campaign on about track closures at the moment but I am sure it does not represent the views of all 4w drivers.

The campaign at Smithton is by a group called Save our Heritage -Save our West Coast, not the 4wd movement as such. These people are the folk that own shacks there, ride horses, fish, camp and generally enjoy the area. At times such as Christmas many others spend holliday time there. Submissions were called for, to get users opinions on usage, and although nearly 2500 were received, less than 50 were in favour of the track closures.
However the majority view was ignored.

Flyfisher

[stepbystep]

Re: 4wders. Are they all bogans?

Postby tastrax » Thu 07 Jun, 2012 2:05 pm
Well I hope they are not all bogans because I am one, however I am not a hard core 4WD'r. I think 4wd action has a bit of a campaign on about track closures at the moment but I am sure it does not represent the views of all 4w drivers.

The campaign at Smithton is by a group called Save our Heritage -Save our West Coast, not the 4wd movement as such. These people are the folk that own shacks there, ride horses, fish, camp and generally enjoy the area. At times such as Christmas many others spend holliday time there. Submissions were called for, to get users opinions on usage, and although nearly 2500 were received, less than 50 were in favour of the track closures.
However the majority view was ignored.

Flyfisher

Save Our Heritage, ignore others heritage???

All the shacks are still accessible, horses can still be ridden, fishing, camping 4WD-ing is still all systems go and the only tracks that have been shut are in the extreme 4WD-ing areas beyond Sandy Cape where land management is virtually impossible.

There are many stakeholders in the area and some myths to address, the rally at Smithton wasn't pretty and didn't serve the 4WD community any service.
Their best bet is to work with PWS to achieve the best result for the country all the stakeholders love, is it not?

[stepbystep]

...and the only tracks that have been shut are in the extreme 4WD-ing areas beyond Sandy Cape where land management is virtually impossible.

Should correct myself here, there are several minor and duplicate tracks as well as a few fire breaks that were never gazetted as tracks that have been closed in an attempt to keep people away from some sensitive sites and to keep cars on the one track. There is also trackwork being undertaken to fix some of the sections that have become impassable. The net result of this is that some folk will have to (if they want to access their favourite spot) be forced to drive to the next beach access point and walk a couple hundred metres. For the record having had a good look about down there it's a bit of a dogs breakfast that needs someone to step in and make some decisions! Thankfully someone has IMHO

[flyfisher]

Often times the "management"is a locked barrier because Parks don't seem to have the money or will to manage the area as well as it could be.

A lot of money has been spent on walking tracks, huts etc but where a permit is payed for in this area, not a lot is seen for the money.

Offers have been made of free assistance, but turned down. 'Spose they don't want the undesirables down there. Pity that a small minority of 4wd's spoil it for the rest.
If the damage is as bad as people try to make out, then there isn't much left to save.
If it's not that bad, then the damage is overstated, and signs and fences are sufficient, with stiff fines for miscreants.
Surely the old track to the Pieman would be one of the iconic trips in Australia with a barge to cross and continue to Granville and Trial.
It would rival the trip to Cape York and would bring in many hundreds of thousands of tourist dollars.

The rally at Smithton was quite an orderly affair and no problems were caused. That in itself brought much needed dollars to the area.
My cost for the overnight trip was around $400 for my wife and myself, with many others spending similar and apart from a bit of fuel in Hobart it was all spent in Stanley and Smithton. Definitely something those struggling towns need.

FF

[stepbystep]

As I said before FF, engagement with PWS is the best course of action if you want your voice heard. Access to the Pieman Heads is the most contentious part of the scheme, however it is my understanding this track was never actually approved or formalised? Not that that makes your argument invalid but surely such a special area requires controls? Perhaps it's just a case of stemming the flow until education and respect kicks in?

As you would know if you were in Smithton some pretty inflammatory and presumptuous statements were made that provided zero recognition of the damage that is being done and no solutions to the problem?

[flyfisher]

The "governing" body of 4w driving in Tas has found Parks to be not interested in any major consultations so it makes things difficult.

I totally agree about the need for controll over activities in the area to protect the aborigional heritage . However the local aboriginals from around the Circular head area want access to be at least left as is.
The old track to the Pieman can still be plainly seen on Google earth as well as mineral exploration tracks.

I do think it could work and many travellers would then just travel down or up and not do a return journey.
A hundred dollars or so for a permit would give Parks some much needed capital.
Just my 2c.
FF

[photohiker]

Having been to the area in question over several years, all I can say is that there is no easy 'hands off' solution. It is a remote area and as such difficult to patrol and police. Even with entry fees and permits, we rely on the responsibility of all people entering to behave with respect to the area. The actions of some 4wd'ers have caused unnecessary damage and have continued for long enough that they have brought attention to the problem, and the resulting action to try and protect the area.

Each time I have been to the Tarkine Coast, I have been appalled. While I can accept that the majority are probably just fine, there is no excuse for ripping through middens and leaving rubbish lying about and those are the types of activities that have finally brought attention and action.

"Save our Heritage" indeed. As the 4wd community is unable to control these people, then the end result of Parks doing nothing to prevent this behavior will be eventual total loss and destruction for everyone, for ever.

[Buddy]

As I said before FF, engagement with PWS is the best course of action if you want your voice heard. Access to the Pieman Heads is the most contentious part of the scheme, however it is my understanding this track was never actually approved or formalised? Not that that makes your argument invalid but surely such a special area requires controls? Perhaps it's just a case of stemming the flow until education and respect kicks in?

As you would know if you were in Smithton some pretty inflammatory and presumptuous statements were made that provided zero recognition of the damage that is being done and no solutions to the problem?

Engagement with Parks??? You jest of course. When offers of help go unheeded including a free bridge, when emails are unanswered, when Parks can't be bothered keeping Arthur R. ranger station open to educate, inform and police the area, when a plethora of submissions are wiped to get Parks "management by gate" agenda up, when no presence at all goes to a ranger behind every dune because permit monies are being used to facilitate jobs for the boys, then why wouldn't people who have used this area responsibly for decades be up in arms? Good land management means controlling undesirable elements, not lockouts. That's just lazy management.

[stepbystep]

As I said before FF, engagement with PWS is the best course of action if you want your voice heard. Access to the Pieman Heads is the most contentious part of the scheme, however it is my understanding this track was never actually approved or formalised? Not that that makes your argument invalid but surely such a special area requires controls? Perhaps it's just a case of stemming the flow until education and respect kicks in?

As you would know if you were in Smithton some pretty inflammatory and presumptuous statements were made that provided zero recognition of the damage that is being done and no solutions to the problem?

Engagement with Parks??? You jest of course. When offers of help go unheeded including a free bridge, when emails are unanswered, when Parks can't be bothered keeping Arthur R. ranger station open to educate, inform and police the area, when a plethora of submissions are wiped to get Parks "management by gate" agenda up, when no presence at all goes to a ranger behind every dune because permit monies are being used to facilitate jobs for the boys, then why wouldn't people who have used this area responsibly for decades be up in arms? Good land management means controlling undesirable elements, not lockouts. That's just lazy management.

The language and presumptions in your post illustrate the points Ive been trying to make. Unfortunately you've neither acknowledged the problems up there or tried to address them. I'm not a Parks employee so have no authority to speak on their behalf and if they don't return your emails that's unacceptable, as for free bridges, where and why?
Last time I was there(2 weeks ago) the ranger station was open and the blokes I spoke to their were nice guys and sympathetic to all the 'stakeholders'. Have you had a look at the track closures? Seems to still be pretty good access to me...

As photohiker said, if the 4WD community can't manage the problem someone has to, no?

[Buddy]

Hazell Bros. offered to build a bridge over Granite Ck. after 3 lives were tragically lost there. The offer was not taken up and Hazell's moved out of the area. Parks' response was to "close" the track (small sign to side of track) thus absolving themselves of any further responsibility. Shameful. For years the Arthur R. station was only spasmodically open. They claimed they couldn't get staff up there. Miraculously they can now. Access south of Sandy Cape is now barred, but Parks were going to allow tagalong tours by quad down to the Interview R. with a financial benefit to go to Parks, how's that for hypocritical? Much of the damage incurred in the APCA is done by quads, yet 4WDers have to pick up the can. Yes, there are some 4WDers who won't play the game, so manage them. If there is a bashing in the Mall is the Mall closed for ever, no, the perpetrator(s) is identified and punished.

[stepbystep]

Can't really compare the mall in a city to a remote area can you???

So first you complain about there being no staff up there and then in the next breath complain that resources have been bolstered, obviously as a result of a major problem.
Now I believe an education campaign is on it's way so perhaps the 'lock-outs' won't be permanent or perhaps once educated various stakeholders will see the value of 'protecting' a unique place and treating it with respect. Can't tell you how many beer bottles/cans I saw on my way to Greenes Point the other day. The clueless folk that do this deserve to have a damn good kick up the bum and don't deserve to go to these areas!

Anyhow we're not likely to agree Buddy so not a lot of point in the to and fro. I'd simply encourage all to get on board with an open mind and realise this is a complex issue that doesn't benefit from simplistic slogans and chest beating.

Cheers

[flyfisher]

I really think that Buddy was merely using that Mall example as an indicator of the way other management issues can be handled.
As is often the case, the many get punished for the actions of a few.
We all see examples of parents with kids that are allowed to run riot, well it happens in the bush as well, but the majority are not like that.
Little Johnny on his trail bike or four wheeler will rip up sand dunes and middens unless controlled and throw his rubbish anywhere, but there are many people who will pick up after these d@%k heads and try to educate them.
About a month ago I participated in a clean up of a southern forestry track with other members of a four wheel drive club, and took 3 trailer loads of rubbish to the Geeveston tip. Is that being a bogan. No we aren't all bogans but there are some.
There are different types of 4w drivers. Some just want to play in the mud, often young ones.
There are others who love to get away and camp in out of the way places to explore, fish,walk and for photography, really not a lot different to walkers.
Some do mainland trips like the Burke and Wills trip next month, or Canning stock route, or Cape York.
Lifestyles vary and not everyone wants to be a walker (or has the time) so please have respect for others ideas.

[doogs]

About a month ago I participated in a clean up of a southern forestry track with other members of a four wheel drive club, and took 3 trailer loads of rubbish to the Geeveston tip. Is that being a bogan. No we aren't all bogans but there are some.

FF the topic title was very tongue in cheek, I was just playing on the stereotypical character that this bloke Roothie is. Thanks for cleaning up

[Ent]

Stepbystep it is interesting to read your writings of someone that is new to an area and has boundless energy in maintaining that the locals for generations have got it wrong. I chuckle over comments that demonstrate a lack of knowledge of the area. Flyfisher’s views are well balance and show an understanding of the complex issues that have developed over many years.

Stepbystep I suggest the first step is developing an understanding the local population and the sense of community that they have. This comes from being an isolate area for many years with, communication, power, and decent access roads being relatively new. Conditions such as this breed a strong sense of community as you are reliant on your neighbour in a way a city person does not understand. As remarkable as it might seem to an outsider significant infrastructure has been provided by the local community with minimal assistance from any level of government. This can have its own challenges to the “bureaucracy” governed by engineering standards but if left up to the bureaucracy not much would have happened.

Astonishing, as it might appear, free bridges (more accurately culverts) are not uncommon. Brawling with State bureaucracy is often a waste of times so companies will offer a culvert for nothing providing that a recognised bureaucracy overseas the positioning as per numerous legislative requirements. Landowners will assist in allowing land access and storage for materials and plant with never a mention of money changing hands. Pre the nanny state gravel would come from private land along with timber for bridges with no though of a recognised transaction, except an invite to a barbeque to celebrate the new infrastructure. However, the every present legal liability issues and often-sensible engineering/environmental practices means this has become rather uncommon. Half of me breathes a sigh of relief at the demise of such practices but the other half feels a little sadder for the passing of such social contracts.

The community cares deeply about the loss of young lives and prepared to act in ways that might be unfathomable by interlopers. Try getting a road realignment on a dangerous corner in more than a few municipalities and you will find landowners, pressure groups, and the usual rabbits frustrating this at every turn. My experience was the reverse as affected landowners invited the engineer along to design the realignment and had a kitchen table cabinet amongst themselves to work out the land swaps. All they wanted was a bureaucracy to cross the “t” and dot the “I”. A project that normally would have had a lengthy gestation period was quickly implemented due to the considerable help of the locals. With road work you will find the local land owners visiting to find the required placement of fences and when the road crews turn up they often find that the fences have been shifted, no charge, no stuffing around by the land owners. It is an extraordinary thing to experience and gladdens the heart. But yes people being people you get the rabbits. Strangely, many are rather new to the area. One “character” remains firmly fixed in my mind.

In heading down that way you might have travelled on the sealed road from Marrawah to Arthur River. Amazing but true the locals for years when it was gravel fought hard to have is speed limited to 80 km/ph but “National/State” roads regulation said no. But when the road was being sealed at the last minute a Federal body stepped in and wanted the road declared a project worthy of their meddling. The result after was after much angst it had to have a speed limit imposed less that the “National/State” road regulations 100 km/ph. Forgive the locals for being rather cynical of bureaucracies as I still shake my head on that issue.

Parks and Wildlife has a checkered history in the area. Sometimes they have been very inclusive in decision making and other times downright contemptuous of the locals. I for one could never figure out what awaited the next round of directives from them as it appeared to have more to do with a personality involved than a “corporate Parks” view. Parks has significant infrastructure but lacks much in funding and expertise so where minor work would head off an issue they do nothing and then all hell breaks out. I am aware through this forum that Parks is working hard at identifying assets to figure out a maintenance plan rather than the past crises management approach but they have a long way to go and seriously underfunded. Conservationist cheer every time land goes over to Parks but then go missing when questions on raising money to fund the new area get asked.

What this debate needs is respect to all parties and the title of this thread alone shows none to one side of the divide. And yes there are rabbits and mongrels. After a lot of time and support, building infrastructure at Dip Falls a bunch of low lives turned up and wrecked the place. Judging by the tire treads they were hot rodded 4WDs. But why should the responsible 4WDs owners be punished? Because more than a few drink and drive does it mean all cars should be fitted with breath-testing devices before starting?

I understand the strength of the rhetoric largely in part to having some understanding of the history. Punishing for someone for not being a wordsmith is rather, well, upstairs downstairs.

Regards

[stepbystep]

....so please have respect for others ideas.

Exactly!!!! Isn't that what this is all about? The off-roaders and shackies have had the place to themselves all this time and the problem has only got worse, is it not time for a moderating influence?

For the record I own a 4WD, have done in various forms since I was 17 and at last count I have been bouncing around in them for over 38 years. A similar set of track closures happened around my 'shack town' in WA 15 years ago, a similar bru-ha-ha was kicked up as is happening here, years later everyone calmed down, learned their lessons and adapted, the result is both a more respectful use of the area and a very slowly regenerating environment(roo shooters report more game, wildflower and bird aficionado's report more blooms and birds and the fishermen are reporting less crap left at the campsites).

I suspect the same will happen in the Arthur-Pieman given a little bit of time for the heat to drop out of the issue.

Rather than stoutly defending their position, anybody got any practical or positive ideas?

[Taurë-rana]

Having been a passionate greenie and bushwalker all my life, and a 4wdriver for a lot of it, as well as being on the 4WD Tas committee and 4WD Australia committee, couldn't leave this one alone. There has been quite a bit of reasonable discussion here, as well as a few inaccuracies.
It was interesting being a greenie at the rally in Smithton as there was some anti-green sentiment, but most of the speakers were very reasonable, there were only a couple that made idiots of themselves in my opinion, by ranting and raving. The others argued coherently and sensibly about the need for access for all, for places for kids to play and prove themselves, for traditional access, and for the need for the government/Parks to work with the community to manage areas like this.
One of my biggest bugbears and the reason I was at the rally is the absolute disregard that the government/Parks has for all the work put by volunteers into identifying options and solutions to the problems. Volunteers have spent untold hours and money working towards solutions, as well as hardening and rerouting tracks, fencing, educating, looking after the place, but it is ignored and the gates shut. The track to the Pieman River would be an iconic 4WD destination if it was managed properly, and that wouldn't be that hard, it just has to happen!
One of the other thing that really annoys me is that off-roaders are painted as causing so much damage, yet the percentage of land damaged by the bad ones is miniscule compared the damage from forestry activities.

[Taurë-rana]

Oh yes, I don't think I qualify as a bogan...

[stepbystep]

Having been a passionate greenie and bushwalker all my life, and a 4wdriver for a lot of it, as well as being on the 4WD Tas committee and 4WD Australia committee, couldn't leave this one alone. There has been quite a bit of reasonable discussion here, as well as a few inaccuracies.
It was interesting being a greenie at the rally in Smithton as there was some anti-green sentiment, but most of the speakers were very reasonable, there were only a couple that made idiots of themselves in my opinion, by ranting and raving. The others argued coherently and sensibly about the need for access for all, for places for kids to play and prove themselves, for traditional access, and for the need for the government/Parks to work with the community to manage areas like this.
One of my biggest bugbears and the reason I was at the rally is the absolute disregard that the government/Parks has for all the work put by volunteers into identifying options and solutions to the problems. Volunteers have spent untold hours and money working towards solutions, as well as hardening and rerouting tracks, fencing, educating, looking after the place, but it is ignored and the gates shut. The track to the Pieman River would be an iconic 4WD destination if it was managed properly, and that wouldn't be that hard, it just has to happen!
One of the other thing that really annoys me is that off-roaders are painted as causing so much damage, yet the percentage of land damaged by the bad ones is miniscule compared the damage from forestry activities.

Nice post R.
I think it all comes down to the south of Johnson's head issue doesn't it? It will be interesting to see what happens over the next year or so won't it?

Pity the media aren't interested in the moderate voices.

[Mutley]

Wow, what a contentious subject.

The issue of access to the bush is certainly a divisive one and the camp someone sits in is often assumed by the type of vehicle they drive, the design of ink on their arms or the clothes they wear. Too often we turn this into a class debate, ie the over educated greenie against the ill educated bogan.

I have owned a 4wd...a very big one, with bull bar, spotties, snorkel, big tyres and TWO radios..and it was great fun. It took the wife and I halfway around Australia, visiting countless national parks on the way. It even took us up the telegraph track to cape York. We saw some phenomenal country. Would I have seen this on foot ? No way. Too far and too hot.

I also am passionate about multi day hiking through wilderness areas. I have experienced natural beauty in Tasmania that has had a permanent impact on my life. If I had seen any vehicle in such areas, I would have been outraged.

My point is, we all have an appropriate space for our recreational activities. If one particular form of recreation is damaging the amenity of an area, we need to have an informed, logical discussion about restricting access, whether that be vehicles, horses or walkers.

And we should stop supporting aggressive zealots who use the easily accessible Internet media as a soapbox for their ridiculous rants.