Marketing Hype or Will you do this too?

[GPSGuided]

My gripe with this iPad campaign, though, is that it just seems intuitively dodgy for a major manufacturer to now be encouraging and reinforcing all of the people who own or buy its devices to use them in this way in remote places, through a major marketing campaign that's obviously aimed at the general public, and not specifically alpine climbers who'd more likely get the context.

Relax, I suspect most who'll use an iPad out bushwalking are those following regular tourist trails in NPs in the foreseeable future. But time will change. In many ways, it's way easy to read a map on an iPad than a tiny handheld GPS screen. Potential safety benefits there.

Glad to be of service.

That's the spirit!

[izogi]

Relax

Hey, you stoked that fire.

[GPSGuided]

Hey, you stoked that fire.

Gotta keep the place warm!

[izogi]

Don't phones and ipads get their location by triangulating phone towers (not true GPS)? I would have thought heavier, less reliable and less useful than a true gps. You wouldn't get a location in many interesting parts.

Smartphones and tablets use a variety of techniques. Wireless networks is another one, and probably by far the most useful in metropolitan areas. They'll also triangulate from cell towers and most these days would also have GNSS antennas built in for GPS and/or other geolocation systems.

Antenna quality varies between devices (my original Samsung Galaxy S is dreadful) and it's sometimes very hard to obtain objective comparison info because the only selling point for most smartphones and tablets is that there's actually GPS, rather than GPS of any useful quality. I'm not sure about the iPad antenna. It's probably fine if people are using it in the field so much.

Another thing to keep in the back of your mind is that the hardware or firmware which determines what's reported by the GPS might also be optimised for use in populated areas, sometimes specifically for driving.. on the grounds that the main use 99% of people will have for a SmartPhone or Tablet GPS is to get driving directions. eg. If you're trying to record a track you're walking, the default filtering mechanism used for recording data points might be better suited to the typical speed-up-slow-down behaviour of a vehicle than for a person on foot. That issue probably wouldn't affect actual reported positions, but someone else might know better. That type of behaviour might affect stuff like a location that your device will estimate where you are, based on previous locations, if it's temporarily lost a signal.

[GPSGuided]

Good technical considerations there Izogi! Although I would have expected those filtering are done by the actual mapping apps than the iOS. 'Son of a Beach' is the developer of a popular mapping app on the iOS system and I suspect he knows a lot more.
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=14120&hilit=iPhone+app

[photohiker]

There is a bit of over thinking going on about phone and ipad GPS capabilities going on here.

In real use, there is hardly any accuracy difference between a outdoors GPS and a phone or iPad. The reality is that consumer GPS is not as accurate as survey GPS systems like Trimble http://www.ebay.com.au/bhp/trimble-gps ), but horses for courses.

Checking one's bearings and keeping track of your location in the landscape is not something I would discourage. It's a simple operation with a handheld GPS which may explain why people are seen checking their GPS when those with maps hang on as long as they can before resetting their bearings. I've got nothing against map and compass users (I use them myself) but map users getting all superior towards GPS users because of their choice of navigation aids is unnecessary.

Take the nav aids you are most capable with, and bring along a backup in case of unexpected failures.

[vagrom]

[deleted]

[perfectlydark]

I highly distrust car gps devices personally because they are there telling you directions. Ours has occaisionally tried telling me to turn into a paddock fence. Outdoor gps are good because you arent ther following a trail (although you could). You are using it mainly to get a bearing. Which is why I am perplexed by this deep dislike of walkers who choose to you use them. They have their vulnerabilities as do paper maps. These d%=÷ swinging contests over who is better at navigating are pretty pathetic

[izogi]

Gee, sorry for offending you guys. I nearly always carry a mapping GPS these days. It's usually switched on and tracking. I use it sometimes for verification of where I am or occasionally more if I'm really stuck.

It's not the choice of navigation aid which concerns me. It's the way in which I think people who don't necessarily get out terribly frequently are most likely to use it and sometimes end up utterly depending on it, and that's what irks me about Apple's campaign.

Whatever.

[Mark F]

I also use a mapping GPS but have a paper map and compass as backup and spare batteries. My problem with the marketing is that two experienced mountaineers are telling people that they can use an iPad to navigate in potentially extreme conditions (whiteout, blizzard and below zero temps) for up to 5 days without recharging (and take no recharger) and that it is so reliable that carrying a map and compass is unnecessary. This is despite the iPad having a battery life of 10 hours and no IPX rating and operating requirements from 0-35 degrees in a non-condensing environment.

It is interesting to note that only the phone versions of iPads have a gps chip in them. If the iPad is like the early iPhones then you cannot turn off the cell phone transmitter and keep the gps running to try to increase battery life.

Personally I would like use a large screen device for mapping/navigation but I want something that is waterproof (IPX 6 level minimum) and has rechargeable/replacable batteries.

[wayno]

had an email from someone who knows a bit about Adrian, he was in himalayan expeditions and has started his own company and is out for the PR, he was also in the superbowl ads

[GPSGuided]

I highly distrust car gps devices personally because they are there telling you directions. Ours has occaisionally tried telling me to turn into a paddock fence.

I think this is a good example to discuss. In my uses, I don't use the term "trust" with my GPS of whatever flavour. I just use them as a tool, an assistant when I drive or walk. There was only one time back in the early 2000s where an in-car GPS led me in an infinite loop in Los Angeles. The local road works and detours in place was the cause. Otherwise, I know my personal GPS equipments, I ensure the maps and firmware are up to date, I review the suggested route before moving off. Then, I just use it as an assistant along the way to remind me of turns etc. If I should not like a particular local condition, I just go in another direction and the GPS unit would quickly come up with a new routing to my destination. It's all good. As for any tool, one should use it smartly and blind faith should not come into it.

[GPSGuided]

It's not the choice of navigation aid which concerns me. It's the way in which I think people who don't necessarily get out terribly frequently are most likely to use it and sometimes end up utterly depending on it, and that's what irks me about Apple's campaign.

But it gets people interested in getting out, that's a good thing. Then people will learn and read up on the subject. Seriously, I doubt few people will be getting up the the Everest or a major walk after seeing that ad. There'll always be Darwin Award winners, irrespective of what they are advised. That's life. Storm in a tea cup issue.

[wayno]

you have to treat all electronics as potentially temperamental... aside from the power running out. over time they have a probability of eventually failing catastrophically one day, will you have a non electronic backup method to navigate with when that happens.

[photohiker]

My problem with the marketing is that two experienced mountaineers are telling people that they can use an iPad to navigate in potentially extreme conditions (whiteout, blizzard and below zero temps) for up to 5 days without recharging (and take no recharger) and that it is so reliable that carrying a map and compass is unnecessary. This is despite the iPad having a battery life of 10 hours and no IPX rating and operating requirements from 0-35 degrees in a non-condensing environment.

I agree with this, however I would point out that there are cases for the ipad that give them the water and shockproofness required. The advert doesn't show a case, but it is an advert for the ipad. Would be interesting to hear from the mountaineer about what ipad protection they use.

Regarding battery use, I agree it's not fantastic, but if you use the device sparingly and turn it off when not required etc, you have quite a lot of battery time per day. How much time do you spend gazing at maps per day? If they used it like a map, and had it in a lifeproof case, it would probably work ok, although it wouldn't be my choice. Joe public who uses it as their immediate social interaction, photography and games device would be out of luck after a few hours.

I'm waiting for the foldable e-paper version before I take one out bushwalking

[wayno]

if you're on a prolonged whiteout, you stand to need to spend a lot of time looking at a map...

[GPSGuided]

It is interesting to note that only the phone versions of iPads have a gps chip in them. If the iPad is like the early iPhones then you cannot turn off the cell phone transmitter and keep the gps running to try to increase battery life.

You'll find that the Apple engineers have already thought of that. If there's no SIM in the iPad, the phone circuitry is powered down. So, just take the SIM out and your worries are over. Up on Everest, I don't think there's any mobile service except on special occasions - During the 2008 Olympics torch relay when China Mobile set up a base station at base camp.

[GPSGuided]

you have to treat all electronics as potentially temperamental... aside from the power running out. over time they have a probability of eventually failing catastrophically one day, will you have a non electronic backup method to navigate with when that happens.

Without saying. Darwin Award winners can not be helped. Most people are sensible.

[wayno]

I work in IT, you'll be surprised how many people are surprised when their electronic device dies.... a lot of people now change devices regularly enough that they seldom if ever have an electronic device die on them.... a lot of electronic devices are pretty reliable now and you can get years and years out of them but bad batches can still come out of factories
i've been dealing with a specific brand of monitor that had a reputation for reliability and i had a massive failure rate on hundreds on them half of them were coming back from the repairers DOA. i was dealing with dead monitors on an almost daily basis, one staff member had to have theirs swapped out five times inside the warranty period...
having said that i've go electronic devices that refuse to die after years and years of being thrashed... but i cant take that as a given for all my devices especially ones as important as navigation devices.

[GPSGuided]

if you're on a prolonged whiteout, you stand to need to spend a lot of time looking at a map...

Still would use way less power than a short session of Infinti Blade 3 or Real Racing 3. Run time is a known quantity and a smart user would know how to ration it appropriately. At least in a white out, a GPS user will still know exactly where they are when compared to a paper map/compass user who is trying to triangulate off geographical features. Pros and cons, each to their own.

[GPSGuided]

I work in IT...

I work in healthcare, you'd be surprised how many people lose or damage their Medicare card and other paper records. Applied here, paper maps can also get lost, blown away or damaged. As said, some people just can't be helped. Fortunately, most are sensible.

Last edited by GPSGuided on Tue 25 Feb, 2014 8:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

[wayno]

yup i carry backup maps in a drybag in my pack, they are dirt cheap to print off, how many will carry a backup ipad?

[GPSGuided]

yup i carry backup maps in a drybag in my pack, they are dirt cheap to print off, how many will carry a backup ipad?

As many as iPhone users out there... Then there's the traditional handheld GPS and maps... Talk about layers of redundancy possible!

[photohiker]

if you're on a prolonged whiteout, you stand to need to spend a lot of time looking at a map...

Because there is nothing else to look at?

With a limited battery life GPS, you can plot a course, get the bearing, turn off the ipad and use your compass/watch/whatever.

Or perhaps blundering about on mountaintops in a whiteout is not the smartest move - pitch your shelter and wait.

When using a GPS for nav, I routinely use a compass with it, and always have some form of map, as well as a switched off gps capable smartphone in a protective case in the pack. If somehow I was convinced to carry an ipad as primary nav device, I would have a handheld in the pack for backup.

[izogi]

yup i carry backup maps in a drybag in my pack, they are dirt cheap to print off, how many will carry a backup ipad?

On a tangent, what's the topo mapping accessibility like in Australia? How do people who like paper maps go about getting them?

Wayno can print out maps really easily, without having to pay for a commercial product (unless he wants to), because Land Information NZ has been giving away it's raw survey data as well as digital copies of all the official rendered 1:50000 paper maps, as giant TIF files since late 2009.

During the time I lived in Vic, though, I sometimes found it difficult to locate basic topo data amongst all the specialised commercial variants (esp targeted for 4WD). Outdoor retailers would sometimes sell selected paper maps for popular areas, and the government info shop in Melbourne stocked everything surveyed for VIC, as long as you could reach the CBD and then navigate your way to an obscure corner on the 20th floor of an office block. But despite being so close I saw very few official Tasmania maps outside of down-town Hobart, and I rarely saw any retailers stocking maps for any other states.

Do people normally get maps commercially?

[GPSGuided]

Unfortunately, our situation varies by the state. In NSW, the government lands office sells paper topo maps. But there are also electronic access to it, though not as convenient in my experience to print off.
http://maps.six.nsw.gov.au/
Otherwise they've also just released electronic versions of their traditional paper maps, Their E-Topo product.
https://shop.lpi.nsw.gov.au/wps/portal/
Not expensive but not free either.

[izogi]

Neat. Thanks for those links. I'll remember it next time I'm in the area. I was working in Melbourne's CBD so found all the maps I thought I'd need from the place where I knew to get them, but I was curious if there was some sort of commercial issue around them not always being digitally available, like maybe a fear of putting some companies out of business. I guess it depends on the state.

The NZ situation's been really cool, though, since LINZ made it so easy to get the data. Random free stuff's popped up to take advantage of it (like the most obvious scrollable topo map idea), and other businesses are using it which might not have been able to otherwise. eg. There's now a small fabric printing company which will produce any official map on a durable, stain-proof washable and stuffable fabric. I paid them a little extra to string together the relevant parts of several official maps to get my favourite mountain ranges.

[GPSGuided]

Yes, saw NZ's government offering, one that Wayno regularly mentions (with thanks). Very good service indeed. I also understand that TAS govt has a good service and may be of assistance to you too.
http://maps.thelist.tas.gov.au/listmap/app/list/map

On the GPS front eg. Garmin, there are a few commercial topo data files on sale, from $20 odd to significantly more in the $200 range. The cheaper ones are fine for casual recreational use.

[photohiker]

Every state seems to have both government and specialist map shops.

What I have found is that either can be out of a particular map, but they are usually available or not far away, and the shops have been happy to post the maps to me when available.

As far as digital mapping for GPS, in many areas in Australia community mapping is often equal or superior to commercial offerings for bushwalking.

par example: Walls of Jerusalem on OpenStreetMap

Printable and available for GPS.

The Tassie topo maps are available as digital files, but the price remains high and because of the format they are more suited to <cough> an iPad than a mainstream GPS.

[icefest]

Every state seems to have both government and specialist map shops.

What I have found is that either can be out of a particular map, but they are usually available or not far away, and the shops have been happy to post the maps to me when available.

As far as digital mapping for GPS, in many areas in Australia community mapping is often equal or superior to commercial offerings for bushwalking.

par example: Walls of Jerusalem on OpenStreetMap

Printable and available for GPS.

The Tassie topo maps are available as digital files, but the price remains high and because of the format they are more suited to <cough> an iPad than a mainstream GPS.

I find OSM is lacking in good quality countour lines. Tasmaps>garmin topo - oztopo>OSM.
OSM has only got the base SRTM data, a lack of PP has left many errors.