Walking in areas of significance to Tradtional Owners

[Nuts]

Hmmm, news to me. I had a commercial licence agreement with Nat parks for several years, taking groups into many of our sa NPs and CPs.
Never advised about that in the 6 or so times we did the St Mary peak walk.

Sent from my HTC1 using tapatalk

Maybe not as widely considered in years past? (I don't have any local connection or other than a tourist view, just find it an interesting part of the country is all) I did see the management plan. Have you seen the co-management direction from late 2011?:

flindersranges-managmentplan-discussionpaper-tourism.pdf

(429.07 KiB) Downloaded 679 times

edit: woops: "Some places are considered within Adnyamathanha culture as Munda, being dangerous or having cultural restrictions on access. For example the Adnyamathanha recommend visitors do not climb Ngarri Mudlanha (St Mary Peak). While climbing the peak is permitted, it is undertaken without the blessing or support of the traditional owners"

I came back to this quote:

“We ask you to look after this Country; because it’s our history”
Claude Demell, Senior Adnyamathanha Wilyaru (Tunbridge 1988)

That's enough for me, value in protecting all these places.
There may be lost history on every peak (probably is) but regardless, I wouldn't climb, didn't climb Uluru.
Agree, these recognised places offer a precious chance to show some respect. That it's simply still a request is pretty cool.
For those least considerate (which may not even apply to anyone here), 'character' might be a better word?

[puredingo]

I'd be interested to know how many forum members have got indiginous blood in them?

[GPSGuided]

I'd be interested to know how many forum members have got indiginous blood in them?

Put up a survey! I understand from ABS (2011) that 3% of the population are considered indigenous.

[puredingo]

Haha GPS, I wouldn't know how!

[GPSGuided]

You'll have to start a new thread and there's a "Poll Creation" option below the text box.

[Nuts]

I'd be interested to know how many forum members have got indiginous blood in them?

We all do. The link a long time ago in my case.

[stry]

Both of these are climbed by school groups. My understanding is that the students have the indigenous view and the history explained to them by indigenous locals and are then free to choose as individuals whether to climb or not. Can't see a problem with that.

Not sure when you were last in Uluru but as of at least last year when we were there, no school group would lead their students up it. The climbers are a small minority of all tourists.

Personal contact within the last 12 months GPS. In these cases, the only students that were lead on the climb were those that had made an informed decision to climb - a "conscience vote" if you like. A good way to encourage them to think for themselves, I think.

I don't know about the groups that will be there in the next couple of months.

[GPSGuided]

Irrespective. Given the current climate and prevailing social views, I'd be extremely surprised if any of the teachers these days would "dare" to lead a group of students up. Individual students may venture up but I wouldn't be surprised if they are stopped (even with so called informed decision) due to potential duty of care and liability issues at the teachers' end. All the climbers I saw on our 3 days there were all private individuals or small groups. I understand all the bus tourist operators all tow the official line and they don't give enough time anyway.

[whitefang]

I had a quick skim through the Tourism and recreation in the Flinders Ranges National Park - discussion paper and have concluded that there is no ethical dilemma if I choose to summit St. Mary's Peak (Ngarri Mudlanha).

The paper outlines that Adnyamathana culture is welcoming and sharing and this is extended to all visitors of the park who are encouraged to enjoy and experience Adnyamathana land by "travel(ling) through and camp(ing) on their lands." They also wish for people to treat the land with care. So, although the Adnyamathana people do not bless or support the people who choose to climb St. Mary's Peak I see no problem in doing so long as people acknowledge that the land they are on the traditional lands of the Adnyamathana people and that it has significance to them, and while climbing to the peak (or in any part of the park for that matter) respect and care is taken while walking on their lands.

All this being said my thoughts are specifically based on this location and it is likely I would feel different about other places (i.e Uluru) depending on the thoughts of the local custodians.

[Travis22]

Born and grew up in Gove Nhulunbuy. I'm a 'white fella' tho.

Travis.

[north-north-west]

They also wish for people to treat the land with care. So, although the Adnyamathana people do not bless or support the people who choose to climb St. Mary's Peak I see no problem in doing so [b] as long as people acknowledge that the land they are on the traditional lands of the Adnyamathana people and that it has significance to them, and while climbing to the peak (or in any part of the park for that matter) respect and care is taken while walking on their lands.

That works for me.
Been up St Mary's three times (or is it four?) out of half a dozen visits to Wilpena. First I've heard about local custodians having problems with summitting.

For the record, I've been up Uluru twice out of five or six visits. The first was back in 1985, before the area was returned to its indigenous custodians, and we weren't made aware of their attitude towards it.
The second was last year, my last visit. Because the urge to climb and get some decent photos (nothing resulted from the first climb, film didn't wind on properly) was stronger than my ethics that day. I don't even feel guilty about it, so the ethics are definitely having a bad run.
And I keep thinking what a wonderful place it would be to overnight. Carry up some water, snack food and a bivvy; it'd be brilliant, watching the sun set and then rise again the next morning . . .

[stry]

"current climate and prevailing social views" Not sure what the current climate is and am even less sure what the prevailing social views would be.

I am somewhat concerned that the views of some, prevailing or otherwise, should be seen as a reason to preclude the making of an informed choice by others. Obviously any legalities, and it would hoped, routine courtesy, would be taken into consideration when decisions are made. I'm also not at all keen on the notion that one needs to "dare" to contravene these amorphous conditions to exercise any legal options that they may have available to them.

As for duty of care and negligence issues, school groups walk, cave, climb, kayak, multi day walk, as do various youth groups and clubs.

Can't see any difference in regard to potential liability no matter what is being climbed, or by whom. If someone gets hurt, the same questions will be asked, and the same standards applied, regardless of the activity. Obviously the more hazardous the activity, the more difficult it would be to satisfactoriy answer the questions.

Social views, whether prevailing or otherwise are unlikely to influence the outcome of a law suit for negligence. Neither is "current climate" again - whatever that may be.

[GPSGuided]

Stry, you'll know the pressures the school/teachers are under these days if you are actively involved with schools.

[Nuts]

It's hardly an 'informed' choice, barely scratched the surface i'll bet.. blessings are where you find them I guess

Last edited by Nuts on Tue 17 Jun, 2014 7:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[icefest]

My opinion specifically regarding Uluru.

I don't see a huge ethical issue issue with climbing it and sticking to the main path (hardened and worn out as it is there will be little environmental change with use), do or don't; there's heaps of traffic there already and the greatest benefactor is imho your own conscience.

I'd find it hard to justify camping up top (mainly because of human waste and because I doubt it will all be carried out). I also find it hard to justify tramping all over the more sacred, less visited spots.

[skibug]

Although I don't share @walkerchris77 's attitude, I respect his right to say it.

I also would respect the wishes of local people wherever I went, whether it's Uluru, a cemetery in a small town, someone's backyard, the local school etc. It's what makes us civilised.

Whether an individual should always comply with those wishes is (ethically) slightly different, up to each and every person to make a personal choice. I've been taken to an indigenous "birthing pool", no longer visited by indigenous people, and told - once there - that it was a place for "women's business", and not a place for men. Should I have immediately left, in respect to those traditions? I don't know (for the record I didn't), though I have puzzled over it since.

I think a solution that involves compromise - whether it be stopping below the summit, seeking permission, finding a substitute peak to climb, or embracing the cultural beliefs of locals and finding an alternative goal, (like a smoke cleansing), is in the long run the most edifying. But I acknowledge others may have a different view, and I also understand we need to show tolerance if they act on those views. Difficult issues indeed.

Skibug

[Walking_addict]

Hmmm, news to me. I had a commercial licence agreement with Nat parks for several years, taking groups into many of our sa NPs and CPs.
Never advised about that in the 6 or so times we did the St Mary peak walk.

Maybe not as widely considered in years past? (I don't have any local connection or other than a tourist view, just find it an interesting part of the country is all) I did see the management plan. Have you seen the co-management direction from late 2011?:

flindersranges-managmentplan-discussionpaper-tourism.pdf

edit: woops: "Some places are considered within Adnyamathanha culture as Munda, being dangerous or having cultural restrictions on access. For example the Adnyamathanha recommend visitors do not climb Ngarri Mudlanha (St Mary Peak). While climbing the peak is permitted, it is undertaken without the blessing or support of the traditional owners"

I came back to this quote:

“We ask you to look after this Country; because it’s our history”
Claude Demell, Senior Adnyamathanha Wilyaru (Tunbridge 1988)

That's enough for me, value in protecting all these places.
There may be lost history on every peak (probably is) but regardless, I wouldn't climb, didn't climb Uluru.
Agree, these recognised places offer a precious chance to show some respect. That it's simply still a request is pretty cool.
For those least considerate (which may not even apply to anyone here), 'character' might be a better word?

I think you're right about it not being common knowledge or as highly considered 15 or more years ago Nuts.
Hadn't seen that doc, but then more interested now in walking interstate or o/s, but did have a skim.

Probably today I would go the 'don't climb' way, as done with the rock some 4 or 5 years ago, knowing how the traditional owners feel.

In saying that, maybe an option is to have people that wish to climb St Mary Peak or Uluru, spend time with a local indigenous person, learning the dreamtime story etc, then ascend with their blessing as we did for a Mt Woodroofe climb once.
We spent a day before the climb with old Peter and his relatives, sand drawing, song lines, and they were fine for us to climb next day.
Was a very enlightening experience too, and we were taken to local sacred sites, shown local rock art, water sites, loads of great experiences.
..

[GPSGuided]

Spent quite a bit of time asking and learning about the indigenous history and situation when we were at Uluru. I really felt sorry for them, in the way a once proud tribe have turned into a largely demoralised group, all attributable to the treatments received over the last 1-2 century. Something like that will take a long time to recover in terms of their identity and confidence. If not climbing meant a tiny bit of respect to their customs and wishes and helps them to regain their self-respect, then it's worth the bit of missed experience and photographs on my part.

[whitefang]

I came across an article about Wilpena Pound and it briefly touches on St. Mary's Peak and why the Adnyamathana people don't go up there.

"St Mary's Peak is called Ngarri-Mudlanha," McKenzie says. "Ngarri means 'mind', Mudlanha means 'waiting'. We're never allowed to go up there because it's Ngarri-Mudlanha - 'waiting to take your mind'. The elders were warning us that it was high, that we'd get dizzy and disoriented and we'd be lost."

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/travel/charms-of- ... z34xFWO6T6

[Walking_addict]

Spent quite a bit of time asking and learning about the indigenous history and situation when we were at Uluru. I really felt sorry for them, in the way a once proud tribe have turned into a largely demoralised group, all attributable to the treatments received over the last 1-2 century. Something like that will take a long time to recover in terms of their identity and confidence. If not climbing meant a tiny bit of respect to their customs and wishes and helps them to regain their self-respect, then it's worth the bit of missed experience and photographs on my part.

That is sad and you show an admirable empathy for that situation.

I found the total opposite at Mt Woodroofe, I suppose being in the Pit Lands with virtually no access for day to day travelers (we white fellas), they certainly have a utopia of sorts and a contentment with life in there.
Old Peter ensured all his relatives knew he stories / songlines, and did the sand drawings etc.
They were eating traditionally, almost raw Kanga, just singed on coals, and now shot rather than speared etc.

This may not be the case in the town settlements south of the range, not sure as we didn't go there, some of those places are like mission towns I think.
It was in the region north of Mt Woodroofe that we ventured, virtually the only group to go in to climb Mt Woodroofe once a year, just 4 of us tagged along with the sole commercial operator on his permit.

I came across an article about Wilpena Pound and it briefly touches on St. Mary's Peak and why the Adnyamathana people don't go up there.

"St Mary's Peak is called Ngarri-Mudlanha," McKenzie says. "Ngarri means 'mind', Mudlanha means 'waiting'. We're never allowed to go up there because it's Ngarri-Mudlanha - 'waiting to take your mind'. The elders were warning us that it was high, that we'd get dizzy and disoriented and we'd be lost."

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/travel/charms-of- ... z34xFWO6T6

Great read, I wonder if some distant elder got some taste of mild altitude sickness, had vertigo, or maybe a little dehydration, and started that story ?
Never know about ex premier John Bannons brother meeting his end in there either.

[Mechanic-AL]

If not climbing meant a tiny bit of respect to their customs and wishes and helps them to regain their self-respect, then it's worth the bit of missed experience and photographs on my part.

Well said GPSG. Respect is really what the whole issue is about. Aboriginal people have so much they can teach us 'whitey's 'about the land but our ingrained sense of superioirity will never let that happen. Surely we as bushwalkers and people who supposedly love and respect the land should have a much greater empathy for a race of people who have managed to live in harmony with the bush for centuries. Until we start to show a bit more respect we can kiss any thoughts of true reconcilliation good bye.
I would be interested to know if anyone is aware of any areas of cultural significance in Tasmania where my presence might be seen as disrespectful ?

AL

[walkon]

Last year i spoke to a research fellow doing a paper on indigenous sacred places around the world, specifically in relation to geological structures. He seemed to think that there was a big correlation to the danger present to individuals of the tribe and it being a sacred place. He was a dearth of knowledge and had traveled the world on this topic, a free trip maybe? One of the stories he had was that in a number of places around the world, such as uluru if I remember correctly, the aborigines had sacred ceremonies in which the elder members of the tribe led the young ones to the more dangerous areas, presumably to minimize the risk of the young blokes killing themselves being daring and robbing the tribe of a young able body to help with the tribes survival.

I told him the story of Lake Tali Karng's creation, a rock slide to form the Lake a very long time ago, and the aborigines refusal to go down into the Lake area. He said he wouldn't be surprised to find out that some aborigines were living in the area at the time. Maybe some lost their lives and the tribe would be adverse to go back for the threat to its numbers. He took the information and was keen to look into it.

Regardless of the origins of these sacred places, it is humbling to think of the length of time the aborigines have dwelt in this land. We may not have centuries old buildings that have housed poets, painters or inventers, churches that were constructed a thousand years beforehand. But is what we do have any less significant?

I challenge anyone who will walk/climb anywhere, in regards of a religious/sacred place, against its peoples wishes to go to Saudi Arabia or perhaps Afghanistan and climb/walk all over a mosque and treat it with disrespect. If you wouldn't do that......

[GPSGuided]

I would be interested to know if anyone is aware of any areas of cultural significance in Tasmania where my presence might be seen as disrespectful ?

Given that all native Tasmanians were eradicated, where would such stories be recalled?

[Turfa]

If not climbing meant a tiny bit of respect to their customs and wishes and helps them to regain their self-respect, then it's worth the bit of missed experience and photographs on my part.

Well said GPSG. Respect is really what the whole issue is about. Aboriginal people have so much they can teach us 'whitey's 'about the land but our ingrained sense of superioirity will never let that happen. Surely we as bushwalkers and people who supposedly love and respect the land should have a much greater empathy for a race of people who have managed to live in harmony with the bush for centuries. Until we start to show a bit more respect we can kiss any thoughts of true reconcilliation good bye.
I would be interested to know if anyone is aware of any areas of cultural significance in Tasmania where my presence might be seen as disrespectful ?

AL

Seriously ?

[Mechanic-AL]

Which part wouldn't you take seriously?

Just because Tasmanian Aboriginals were 'eradicated' doesnt mean there history has gone with them does it?

[Mechanic-AL]

I would be interested to know if anyone is aware of any areas of cultural significance in Tasmania where my presence might be seen as disrespectful ?

OK. Bit of a dumb thing to say. No doubt the presence of a white person ANYWHERE in Tasmania could be regarded as disrespectful to an aboriginal. I was trying to ask ( in my own backhanded way ) if there were any sites in Tasmania where a white persons presence might be disrespectful in the same context as Uluru or St Mary's Peak due to dreamtime legends that occurred before europeans arrived on the scene.

[GPSGuided]

Just because Tasmanian Aboriginals were 'eradicated' doesnt mean there history has gone with them does it?

I really don't know. I would have thought that the outsiders wouldn't have taken much interest in their history and stories until well after the completion of the genocide. What's recorded would be from the mid 19th Century at the latest.

[walkerchris77]

Google it maybe.

[Nuts]

Obviously a lot of oral history was lost but the heritage council has over 12000 registered/documented significant sites. There are also people around who can relate their family history, culture, movements back to traditional times. My understanding is far too rudimentary to do the stories justice but have heard a couple that may cause a second thought (they did for me anyway).

[GPSGuided]

I suspect a lot of the peaks in Tassie would have been off-limit had the natives survived till this day.