Forbidden peaks

[slparker]

Just to clarify, if maddog or anyone else was to declare, lets say The Alpine National Park, as religiously significant to lets say, The Extraordinary League of Leprechauns of Christ, you would respect his wishes not to ascend this monument to his religion at the risk of being labelled insular, smug, parochial, disrespectful and intolerant?

Because one mans religion is another mans blasphemy and in the name of all that is equality all religions, or non religions, deserve tolerance and respect regardless of whether you or any other group believes them to be true.

In fact, I am of a mind to take New England National Park for myself and the belief of my religion. Be sure to respect my religion lest you be labelled insular, smug etc etc

I have no problem with anyone believing whatever it is they wish to believe. While ever their beliefs are not imposed on me, they are free to do what they want.

Thank you for the strawman argument. You conflate accepted and demonstrable religious or cultural practices or beliefs with the fantasy of one man.
You can claim what you like for your own but in order to be taken seriously you must have demonstrable cultural and religious affinity which implies regular observance, clear historical or ethnographical record etc. Clearly, in australia, this means aboriginal sacred sites or religious buildings from established religions. This seems to annoy some people and I think it is just the prevailing arrogance of a culture that has vanquished a less powerful one.

BTW Mt welliongton, the cataract Gorge, sydney harbour, your house cannot be claimed as 'sacred' by aboriginals and excluded from visiting because there is no history of sustained and demonstrable use as a sacred area. Mt Tibrogargan, Mt barney? Dunno - are they prescribed areas? they weren't when I climbed them both. But even if they aren't, why climb them nude or disrespect them if the local aboriginal community sees them as important? I mean really, why? - it's like the action of a 12 year old. It's just arrogance to wilfully disrespect an area that actually is important to another just because you don't agree with their view. Or do you think that they actually aren't important? That aboriginal beliefs, customs and heritage is a fantasy that we don't need to respect?

And even if an area was to be prescribed. is there a lack of mountains or bush in Australia that you must walk in these these particular areas? Do you go around walking in a mosque with your shoes on? A church with your hat on? Your neighbours back yard?

I am really surprised at the juvenile and arrogant attitudes on display on this forum. pretty much ashamed, actually, that the bushwalking community displays such parochial and disrespectful beliefs.

[ben.h]

Just to clarify, if maddog or anyone else was to declare, lets say The Alpine National Park, as religiously significant to lets say, The Extraordinary League of Leprechauns of Christ, you would respect his wishes not to ascend this monument to his religion at the risk of being labelled insular, smug, parochial, disrespectful and intolerant?

Because one mans religion is another mans blasphemy and in the name of all that is equality all religions, or non religions, deserve tolerance and respect regardless of whether you or any other group believes them to be true.

In fact, I am of a mind to take New England National Park for myself and the belief of my religion. Be sure to respect my religion lest you be labelled insular, smug etc etc

I have no problem with anyone believing whatever it is they wish to believe. While ever their beliefs are not imposed on me, they are free to do what they want.

Thank you for the strawman argument. You conflate accepted and demonstrable religious or cultural practices or beliefs with the fantasy of one man.
You can claim what you like for your own but in order to be taken seriously you must have demonstrable cultural and religious affinity which implies regular observance, clear historical or ethnographical record etc. Clearly, in australia, this means aboriginal sacred sites or religious buildings from established religions. This seems to annoy some people and I think it is just the prevailing arrogance of a culture that has vanquished a less powerful one.

BTW Mt welliongton, the cataract Gorge, sydney harbour, your house cannot be claimed as 'sacred' by aboriginals and excluded from visiting because there is no history of sustained and demonstrable use as a sacred area. Mt Tibrogargan, Mt barney? Dunno - are they prescribed areas? they weren't when I climbed them both. Why climb them nude or disrespect them if the local aboriginal community sees them as important? I mean really, why? - it's like the action of a 12 year old. It's just arrogance to wilfully disrespect on an area that actually is important to another just because you don't agree with their view.

And even if an area was prescribed. is there a lack of mountains or bush in Australia that you must walk in these these particular areas? Do you go around walking in a mosque with your shoes on? A church with your hat on? Your neighbours back yard?

I am really surprised at the juvenile and arrogant attitudes on display on this forum. pretty much ashamed, actually, that the bushwalking community displays such parochial and disrespectful beliefs.

So who's "beliefs" take precedence then?

As the young lady explains:

“The Glasshouse Mountains hold a very special place in my soul, which is why I love climbing them. “Climbing them naked was a way to reinforce my connection with the natural world."

Why are her feelings of connection to the Glass House Mountains so disrespected by you? Describing her with terms such as "arrogance, disrespect, 12 year old, etc. is disrespectful to her connection to the mountains. Don't you see the hypocrisy in your diatribe?

It's just arrogance to wilfully disrespect on an area that actually is important to another just because you don't agree with their view.

But it's ok for you to disrespect others personally and spiritually (as in connection to land, such as this young lady claims), because quote: " just because you don't agree with their view".

How about removing the plank from your eye or whatever it is you non pastafarians say?

[slparker]

Bea.h
Well, I ask you - if flashing browneyes on your front lawn is spiritually important to me, how do you feel about me doing that? or, altermnatively, what if the young lady in question suddenly gets a fetish for walking into christian churches nude? is that OK too?

My other point being is that you value the beliefs of aboriginals as subordinate to the beliefs of one woman. What does that make you? Would you say the same thing in New Zealand? In Tibet?

My final point being that in a modern society when people hold disparate or opposing beliefs the default position should be one of mutual respect, accommodation and negotiation.

I suppose it IS just easier to do whatever the hell you want...

[ben.h]

I think you're the one here who is being unreasonable and frankly hostile. But I will end my participation here because I don't need to be told how to be civil by someone who is not.
Good day to you sir.

[maddog]

G'day slparker,

Apparently this thread is about a list of peaks with access restricted – which is what is being discussed. It looks to me like Jess, the rock climbing archeologist and naturalist, was just having a little harmless fun on a mountain that she, and many others, have been climbing for years. Good for her. Some object but that’s their problem.

As for my view I have expressed it clearly. That you disagree is of little consequence. Your replies have added little of any substance - its place you have launched a barrage of personal attacks to all who disagree. Water off a ducks back old boy

Cheers,

Maddog.

[Pika]

I had a really long winded reply but looking at maddog and ben.h comment I think they have the right idea.

You appear intolerant of any other point of view and yet accuse others of being 'smug, parochial, disrespectful and intolerant'

Pot. Kettle. Black.

Over and out.

[slparker]

Maddog,
That's a nice passive/ aggressive exit. I take it that you've run out of argument and ad hominem is all that is left to you.

[vicrev]

I want to know how i join "The Extraordinary League of Leprechauns of Christ " sounds like a fun mob,standing around gardens & stuff..........

[vicrev]

Also,prior notice please, before posting pictures of young ladies in the nud,totally unexpected on a bushwalking forum,my blood pressure went off the gauge ....

[skibug]

Good evening friends.

Some interesting points here - I do see both points of view.

I wonder how everyone in this discussion would feel if they saw someone deliberately dancing, or acting in a "larrikin" way, on a loved one's grave?

Skibig.

[vicrev]

.......Lighten up people,it's a bushwalking forum !!!!.....

[Nuts]

We didn't climb Uluru (here we all are calling it that). Heaven forbid political correctness? lol no!.. For me, the reason was more that I could see aboriginal park staff and involved in local tourism and had seen in a number of other places. If I had no hope of understanding the depth of their connection with the place I figured it was a pretty cool thing, here/living and working /sincere about their culture and history. If we couldn't trade a bit of respect for a bit of missed personal gratification.. out here..

[maddog]

I wonder how everyone in this discussion would feel if they saw someone deliberately dancing, or acting in a "larrikin" way, on a loved one's grave?

Skibig.

Good morning ski bug,

The same way as if I saw someone urinating in a waterhole.

How would you feel if you saw someone playing a didgeridoo at St Mary’s or an Indian Snake charmer at the Opera House? Not a problem? Didn’t think so.

Cheers,

Maddog.

[Empty]

I tend to agree with VicRev, this is after all a bushwalking forum however………

A couple of comments by Skibug and Maddog triggered memory of a past event which I couldn’t resist relating.

Many, many years ago, back in my wilder and more youthful days a group of us would go on regular road trips. This one occasion we were heading up to a mate’s beach house in Port MacQuarie and, as usual we left at some ungodly hour of the morning. Tradition dictated that, apart from the dedicated driver, the passengers (usually 4 or 5 of us) would enthusiastically put a dent in a couple of slabs of beer along the way.

Of course, all that drinking had a fairly ordinary effect on the bladder and required regular curb-side stops. The driver would more often than not play a cruel game of ignoring the passengers plea for a pee break until the threat of mutiny became too much.

I remember one such break when we pulled over on the side of the highway, God knows where, and a mate and I got out for a leak. It was still pitch black and we climbed through a wire fence to get off the road a bit and have a little privacy.

Although I was comfortably numb, at some point, through the haze I became vaguely aware that I was peeing on someone’s grave. I still remember that slow dawning of realisation that what I was doing was wrong and needed to stop! I am pretty sure I cut things off mid stream and pivoted 90 degrees to be able to continue without shame. Apparently we had stopped outside cemetery.

I was mortified! I was only about 18 and not long free from the burden of many years at the hands of the Jesuits who had been intent at ramming manners and a good education into me (I perhaps could have phrased that more delicately). Despite their best efforts here I was (accidently of course) desecrating a grave!

It took me a while to get over that and even now I cringe a bit. The wisdom gained in the intervening years suggests however that no real harm was done. The person who’s grave it is was long past caring and anyone living who may have been associated with them was unaware of what I did so no offence was caused.

These days I do not associate a grave with the ‘spirit’ of a person. To me that would be a superstitious belief, long outdated. My parents have been dead many years and only once have I ever visited their graves. I think about them all the time and obviously they are ‘alive’ in my memories but I don’t see the point of a grave side reflection. Visiting the site where they were laid to rest does not bring me any closer to them and I am fairly certain they are no longer there anyway.

So Skibug, that, in a very round about way brings me to answer your question as to would I be offended if someone did the Irish jig on dad’s grave? No I would not. Not on his, on hers, on mine or any of my current family when they reach that point. In fact you could bulldoze Rookwood and put up a MacDonalds and a skating rink and you would not register a complaint from me.

This whole argument about respecting a persons beliefs and traditions is rather flawed. A couple of months ago I saw a doco about child brides. It was one of those hidden camera, warts and all affairs and pretty disturbing. Child bride marriages are outlawed in India but still widely practiced particularly in rural villages. The interviewer questioned one old man as to why his village still conducts child marriages when it is illegal to do so. He launched into a tirade condemning the government and outsiders from interfering in their traditional way of life. This was something that had been practiced for hundreds of years and should be allowed to continue he said.

Just the other day a young girl was hacked to death in New Guinea having been accused of being a witch. Some time time back Europeans burned witches at the stake but thankfully that superstitious belief changed. Seems we may still be waiting for other parts of the world to catch up on that one.

I climbed Uluru when it was still Ayers Rock. There was no suggestion back then that I should not. Ayers Rock to me is a marvel of nature. It possesses incredible magnificence but not the spirit of dead ancestors. If I ever went back I would climb it again, not because I disrespect the beliefs of the traditional owners but because my beliefs are different to theirs and no less worthy.

Beliefs change. It is part of the evolutionary process. My forebears may have once had the same beliefs as the Uluru inhabitants. We no longer do.

So I cannot see how you can uphold the argument of respecting beliefs without cherry picking. On the one hand you can have the relatively benign belief that the spirits of ancestors inhabit Uluru and on the other hand have the rather disturbing belief that a middle aged man has the right to marry an eight year old or that someone with six toes is a witch.

Good luck balancing that one!

Last edited by Empty on Wed 21 Jan, 2015 9:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

[perfectlydark]

Well written post. I see both sides of the argument and respect for others is definatly a concearn. But that said, can one really say that being present somewhere is defiling it? I dont think so. That said chances are if i knew a place was sacred id probably play it safe and simply not go.
I dont think there is a black and white answer and clearly an emotive topic

[slparker]

Empty,
What you are objecting to is cultural relativism, which is the assumption that all cultural practices are somehow equal. Cultural relativism is one of the worst problems with the political correctness movement over the last 20 years and it is pretty discredited. You can respect another culture yet still object to some of its elements (including casting a critical eye on our own).

The answer to the problem is ethically murky but the general ethical way out of the knot is a default proposition of a prima facie respect for someones belief/culture/ethnicity except where that belief, when enacted, causes harm to another. It's fine to respect islam (and africans) yet act against traditional practices like female genital mutilation. there is nothing inconsistent with that.

This forum has descended into an absolutist argument of 'I don't agree therefore I can do what i want'. This argument is not only flawed it is completely naive and only works until someone acts in a way that offends you... then you have no argument against them - because they also are allowed to 'do what they want'.

[stepbystep]

Personally I feel immense gratitude I have a body and a mind that allows me to walk in extraordinary places, a serendipitous blessing, not a right. If a disenfranchised ancient culture requests I don't walk on their land I will graciously bow to their request. I don't 'need' to see or do everything. I'm already very fortunate. Some of the attitudes in this thread are very unfortunate.

[horsecat]

Very true SBS

[icefest]

The same way as if I saw someone urinating in a waterhole.

Not sure if this is the point your trying to make but urinating into a water source is not cool.

I guess the question is: if one of your loved ones cared about another loved ones grave, would you still urinate on that grave, knowing it would distress your loved one?

If so, would you do it in front of them?

[maddog]

G’day Icefest,

I would not do either. Only those who were motivated solely by a desire to offend would knowingly undertake such acts. Walks in the bush or climbing peaks have quite legitimate and personal motivations – which I’m sure you understand.

Objections to such activity raised in this thread seem to rely on perceived religious taboos in which I have no interest in complying with. I see no need to burden myself with mumbo jumbo whatever its source.

Cheers,

Maddog.

[vicrev]

I wanted to keep out of this, go nowhere argument/debate,anyhow,reading some of these posts,it is really about me,me ,me,and me again ,what happened to the old fashioned values,respect& tolerance,do any of you really know what they mean ? I do not think so !....... It seems like ,agree with what I say,I am right,your opinion is crap.......The way this world is going,God help the human race ( whichever God, or pile of rocks you do, or do not believe in ! )......selfishness is the in thing,in all aspects of life, in this present world....shame , shame........

[icefest]

Hey Maddog,

I understand the motivation for climbing peaks.

Would you disregard the practice of not ascending the last meter of Kangchenjunga?

It's a mainly religious taboo, but if ignored would offend a great many people and possibly lead to the mountain being closed for future walkers.

Personally, such a limitation is not a great deal to me, as the legitimate and personal motivations have been fulfilled. I guess, doing this is a bit like tipping in countries like the USA - I don't think it's a a nice way of paying serving staff, but I'll go along with it while I'm there as it doesn't have a great negative impact, and people there are happy(ish) with the system.

a default proposition of a prima facie respect for someones belief/culture/ethnicity except where that belief, when enacted, causes harm to another.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I suspect that Maddogs opinion is that restriction of his free movement is harm to him and therefore unacceptable.


The other thing I wonder is that by climbing and moving through places like this, are we forcing our own beliefs upon others? Wouldn't this be similar to sport climbing the Western Wall?

-icefest

[geoskid]

I think one of the problems with this thread is that people are using the word respect differently.
Laws can be obeyed without respecting them,
Cultural norms can be conformed with without necessarily respecting them- but ideas (beliefs) are different.
When one says they believe something , they are actually saying they think the truth value of a proposition is true. One can't respect a belief if they think the truth value of a
proposition is false- they tolerate anothers right to believe it.

[vicrev]

Respect & Tolerance.......... ...They go together .......

[icefest]

Cultural norms can be conformed with without necessarily respecting them- but ideas (beliefs) are different.
When one says they believe something, they are actually saying they think the truth value of a proposition is true. One can't respect a belief if they think the truth value of a proposition is false- they tolerate anothers right to believe it.

Not sure I agree with this. Respect has several meanings, one of which is "due regard for the feelings, wishes, or rights of others".
https://www.google.com.au/search?q=define+respect
This is the definition where "Respect the natural environment" comes from (and also the legal term "respect" which means to comply with).

Strangely enough this means that it's possible to not feel respect for something but to still show your respect for that same thing without being disrespectful. To put a third definition into the mix, "this respect" refers to a certain subgroups of the whole.

[geoskid]

Respect & Tolerance.......... ...They go together .......

Yes, sometimes like chalk and cheese.
We can respect ones right to a belief, but not tolerate them acting on said belief.
I think it is safe to say respect and tolerance is not black and white.
In some countries simply believing or not believing a proposition will get you arrested- or worse.

[maddog]

G’day Icefest,

My position is much simpler than the measurement of harm. I chose freedom from religion. The shackles of Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Animism or Totemism do not bind. But lets be fair, a rejection of religion is not necessarily egoism. It may be, for example, rationalism.

A popular sentiment expressed within this thread seems to be that while it is fine to reject religious values more generally - we must make an exception of totemic beliefs for sentimental reasons. I’m afraid I don’t agree. If we are to refrain from climbing a rock to appease totemists, why should females not succumb to the demands of the Islamists for modesty, or the Christians for chastity? If we do not comply, an imaginary offence of similar gravity will have been committed in all three cases.

A sinner she may be but let us not condemn Alizee Sery.

Cheers,

Maddog.

[photohiker]

Could the mods please move this cultural/spiritual/bogan/ignorance/etc argument out of the Forbidden Peaks thread?

This is supposed to be

A list of mountains with access either restricted, actively discouraged, or ambiguously discouraged:

As originated by the original poster. Filling this thread with argumentum ad nauseum about the respect or otherwise of cultural or personal beliefs is trashing the thread.

[vicrev]

I,ll second that....all in favour ???

[slparker]

Hey Maddog,

a default proposition of a prima facie respect for someones belief/culture/ethnicity except where that belief, when enacted, causes harm to another.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I suspect that Maddogs opinion is that restriction of his free movement is harm to him and therefore unacceptable.

yes, but this is where utilitarianism comes in: is the quantity of harm done to maddog (by virtue of his irritation at not getting to climb a peak) greater than the harm done to many people (whoare offended at his disregard for their cultural beliefs)? This ismore obvious in the case of the nude climber of Tibrogargan - her small pleasure in her exploit probably does not outweigh the distress of the local aboriginal people who are offended at her disrespect.

In saying this - how many peaks in australia are ACTUALLY forbidden?


[/quote]The other thing I wonder is that by climbing and moving through places like this, are we forcing our own beliefs upon others? Wouldn't this be similar to sport climbing the Western Wall?

-icefest[/quote]

yes, you're right. Absolutist and dogmatic views only work one way - which is the position that maddog is stuck in. he would only see my point if someone started pissing on his lawn and said 'it is my belief to *&^%$#! on maddog's lawn - who are you to tell me to stop'?