ADVICE TO NICE GUYS

[GPSGuided]

Unfortunately men are biologically programmed to look at women and not staring takes a lot of reprogramming...

Only if on heat and during the mating season if you want to argue from that angle. Otherwise there's a major difference b/n 'head turner' like passing a red Ferrari vs an offensive drooling stare.

[Moondog55]

Unfortunately men are biologically programmed to look at women and not staring takes a lot of reprogramming
I try no to stare but it happens sometimes, and it has nothing to do with how good looking/attractive etc the female is; my feeling is that it depends more on how long it has been since the man last had contact with females

speak for yourself but don't include other men in your pseudo science, CIVILISED MEN DON'T STARE AT WOMEN IN AN ANTI SOCIAL WAY

Who said anything about anti-social manner?
Definitely not pseudo science either.

[keithy]

Suz - that sounds like a terrible situation. You probably played it safe by skipping the next hut. I think as other posters have said, there are wierdos and people who aren't good at social interactions/cues everywhere. I don't think it has to do with whether you are nice, a gentleman, or civilised. I mean that's what some people say about others when they get caught doing something bad - "oh he seemed like such a nice guy..."

I've had a situation while camping alone where I went for morning pee and walking back to my tent where I was sure no one else there wasn't anyone the day before, I caught sight of someone looking into my zipped up tent. I wasn't being quiet returning so when they heard me walking back, they walked off before I could say g'day. I checked for anything missing first, but was like "what the heck?"

I'm not a big bloke, but I would be concerned if I was a solo woman in that same scenario. I mean, if there was something up and they were curious they could have stuck around to have a chat.

Your experience reminded me of that scene in Cheryl Strayed's Wild where she encounters the hunters. I'm not sure what the best response would have been. You don't know how they will react to asking them not to stare.

I hope I don't "stare" - occasionally family members have asked what I'm staring at. Usually I replace my glasses and point to a spot a few inches in front of my nose "my focal limit, why?"

I wear glasses too, and usually don't have them on my face when at camp, so most times if its a person over 5m away, you're most likely a moving blur for me as well.

But if I'm staring at someone while hiking, I'm most likely curious/jealous of their gear. However I do strike up conversations rather than just staring. People that have walked with me know that I love a chin-wag with strangers...

Not to be too flippant about your experience, but I saw this after I read your post and thought it seemed apt:

[Rob Gosford]

Not to be too flippant about your experience, but I saw this after I read your post and thought it seemed apt:

HA !
wayyy too funneeee

don't forget also, that NORMAN BATES 'seemed like a nice guy'

[taipan821]

Nice guys don't stare, they avert their gaze and blush...

At least I say good morning/good afternoon to anyone I pass while I'm walking

[Suz]

Your experience reminded me of that scene in Cheryl Strayed's Wild where she encounters the hunters. I'm not sure what the best response would have been. You don't know how they will react to asking them not to stare.

It brought the same scene to my mind too There was no way Wayno that I would've gone up to that guy and told him to stop. In could've just incensed him and made matters worse.

Thanks NNW for explaining it from our side.

Anyhow, I'll get outdoors again in a few weeks and hopefully this kind of encounter never happens again.

[Bogong Moth]

Suz - that sounds like a terrible situation. You probably played it safe by skipping the next hut. I think as other posters have said, there are wierdos and people who aren't good at social interactions/cues everywhere. I don't think it has to do with whether you are nice, a gentleman, or civilised. I mean that's what some people say about others when they get caught doing something bad - "oh he seemed like such a nice guy..."

I've had a situation while camping alone where I went for morning pee and walking back to my tent where I was sure no one else there wasn't anyone the day before, I caught sight of someone looking into my zipped up tent. I wasn't being quiet returning so when they heard me walking back, they walked off before I could say g'day. I checked for anything missing first, but was like "what the heck?"

I'm not a big bloke, but I would be concerned if I was a solo woman in that same scenario. I mean, if there was something up and they were curious they could have stuck around to have a chat.

Your experience reminded me of that scene in Cheryl Strayed's Wild where she encounters the hunters. I'm not sure what the best response would have been. You don't know how they will react to asking them not to stare.

I hope I don't "stare" - occasionally family members have asked what I'm staring at. Usually I replace my glasses and point to a spot a few inches in front of my nose "my focal limit, why?"

I wear glasses too, and usually don't have them on my face when at camp, so most times if its a person over 5m away, you're most likely a moving blur for me as well.

But if I'm staring at someone while hiking, I'm most likely curious/jealous of their gear. However I do strike up conversations rather than just staring. People that have walked with me know that I love a chin-wag with strangers...

I love a good chin-wag with strangers too. But I'm much less willing to engage in social chit-chat with strangers on the track if I'm walking solo. Recently I decided to walk an additional 10km or so to the next hut on the Bibb track one afternoon because I got to the first hut too early, and at 3pm there was one guy there already, and I didn't feel like spending the rest of the afternoon and the evening with some unfamilar guy. No offence intended to the guy, and I met him on the way out the following day and he seemed lovely.

I think it behooves the guys to remember not to take it personally if some gal avoids them (or conversation), and for the gals to remember that it happens to guys too (albeit less commonly). Thanks for the reminder keithy.

[McGinnis]

Excellent post nnw, thanks.

Men need this stuff spelled out. Strangely enough I watched the film 'Suffragette' last night, blows my mind just how recent that movement was and just how appalling women were treated, basically because men are physically stronger as a rule, and created a society built on subservience to men, thankfully women are so much stronger in every other way!

What to do about 'that feeling', dunno, follow your intuition I guess as *&%$#! as that is...

This attitude does not help the situation. Men do not need this stuff spelled out - certain individuals, aforementioned as 'creeps', do. In my experience (as a guy) most men aren't creeps - but a lot are. Please don't lump us all together, though.

"So much stronger in every other way" - that's as ignorant and as sexist as any attitude you'd surely oppose. Gender is immaterial. People are who they are; some are stronger in some areas, some are weaker. Gender is an aside to these characteristics, not a causative factor unless you're talking about the one area in which sexual dimorphism has resulted in males having an advantage, which is physical strength; yet there are plenty of women who would kick my *&%$#!, no doubt.

Anyway,

I don't tend to talk to people when out bush. I'm not there to talk to other people or socialise. I'm there to get away from all that. I don't like people who talk to me other than to say "hello", and I make that clear with my (polite) disinterest; most people can interpret that and don't take offense. If there's a particular question, or issue at hand, that's a different matter entirely (such as asking for help, directions, discussing fire situations, whatever) - I simply don't want to engage in small talk or proselytism.

I admire women who walk solo or in all-female groups out bush, because it's something that no doubt takes guts, and I don't know whether I'd do it were I in your situation. People can be awful, particularly men (read: creeps) towards women. I tend to walk in a mixed group and would hope that anybody that felt uncomfortable on a trail or in a campsite due to the presence of creepy *&%$#! would approach us for assistance or reassurance, even through as simple a mechanism as strength through numbers. I imagine 90% of people would offer the same.

Stay safe, and be vigilant.

Edit: completely missing the original point of the topic, I don't stare. Nobody should stare. It's just creepy.

[north-north-west]

Men do not need this stuff spelled out - certain individuals, aforementioned as 'creeps', do. In my experience (as a guy) most men aren't creeps - but a lot are. Please don't lump us all together, though.

Please don't start #notallmen-ing this discussion.

You aren't a woman so you don't know what it's like to live with this. The majority of men - even the more evolved ones - still demonstrate attitudes and behaviours that reinforce the basic sexism of human society, and most don't think to correct these attitudes and behaviours when they occur. Yes, it works on a spectrum as with most things, but it's still there. Yes, I'm including even those men who have contributed to this thread in a positive way.

Anyway, I do not want to get into a deep philosophical discussion about this stuff - there are better places for that than this forum.

I admire women who walk solo or in all-female groups out bush, because it's something that no doubt takes guts.

Nah. You just have to be highly anti-social. Solo is the best.

[McGinnis]

Men do not need this stuff spelled out - certain individuals, aforementioned as 'creeps', do. In my experience (as a guy) most men aren't creeps - but a lot are. Please don't lump us all together, though.

Please don't start #notallmen-ing this discussion.

You aren't a woman so you don't know what it's like to live with this. The majority of men - even the more evolved ones - still demonstrate attitudes and behaviours that reinforce the basic sexism of human society, and most don't think to correct these attitudes and behaviours when they occur. Yes, it works on a spectrum as with most things, but it's still there. Yes, I'm including even those men who have contributed to this thread in a positive way.

Anyway, I do not want to get into a deep philosophical discussion about this stuff - there are better places for that than this forum.

I admire women who walk solo or in all-female groups out bush, because it's something that no doubt takes guts.

Nah. You just have to be highly anti-social. Solo is the best.

Why not "#notallmen" the discussion? It's a perfectly valid point when all men are being stereotyped as pigs. Either specify that those in question are a-typical, or if that isn't your experience, acknowledge that not *all* men are the *&%$#! being discussed here. Tarring everyone with the same brush does nothing to further the movement for equal rights and equal treatment.

You're right, I'm not a woman and I don't know what it's like. I never will, and I can only speak from the vantage of a person who has many female friends, a sister, a mother, and a partner. I have exposure to these issues by virtue of those associations.

I'm not responding simply to be argumentative; your post is in keeping with the nature of this discussion, and I do find it an interesting discussion. It'd be a shame not to let it run its natural course; while there are certainly better places for that than here, this is where it's happening right now.

By the way, I've taken no umbrage from your posts here. It was stepbystep's post I found distasteful.

[north-north-west]

Why not "#notallmen" the discussion? It's a perfectly valid point when all men are being stereotyped as pigs. Either specify that those in question are a-typical, or if that isn't your experience, acknowledge that not *all* men are the *&%$#! being discussed here. Tarring everyone with the same brush does nothing to further the movement for equal rights and equal treatment.

Until the post to which you object specifically uses the phrase "all men", it is disingenuous to reply with "not all men". No-one has said that all men are a problem. And, as I made the point of saying, if you aren't someone to whom this does apply, don't take it personally. That should not have to be repeated every *&%$#! time a reference is made to this issue.

I don't care how many women you have in your life, your understanding can never be more than second-hand. And when your first overt response is #notallmen, you are - intentionally or not - derailing the conversation by removing the focus from where it should. It's one of standard comments from the anti equal rights extremists. And when I feel up to dealing with that, I go to feminist discussion pages.
btw, it's also a big clue that you don't really listen properly when the women you know talk about these things.

I'm going to end this with a quote from a discussion thread from elsewhere. You might like to know this was written by a bloke (and one who is a lot closer to really understanding the problem): "*&%$#! #notallmen , until it's #notanyman, then men need to take responsibility to sort this *&%$#! out. Not being the one who does it isn't good enough. Every man has to be the one who steps up and stops other men from doing it."

[icefest]

The issue of "not all men" is that it redirects the conversation from the topic at hand - creeps and sexist pigs - to you, saying that it's not your fault (and that's entirely beside the point).

[McGinnis]

Why not "#notallmen" the discussion? It's a perfectly valid point when all men are being stereotyped as pigs. Either specify that those in question are a-typical, or if that isn't your experience, acknowledge that not *all* men are the *&%$#! being discussed here. Tarring everyone with the same brush does nothing to further the movement for equal rights and equal treatment.

Until the post to which you object specifically uses the phrase "all men", it is disingenuous to reply with "not all men". No-one has said that all men are a problem. And, as I made the point of saying, if you aren't someone to whom this does apply, don't take it personally. That should not have to be repeated every *&%$#! time a reference is made to this issue.

I don't care how many women you have in your life, your understanding can never be more than second-hand. And when your first overt response is #notallmen, you are - intentionally or not - derailing the conversation by removing the focus from where it should. It's one of standard comments from the anti equal rights extremists. And when I feel up to dealing with that, I go to feminist discussion pages.
btw, it's also a big clue that you don't really listen properly when the women you know talk about these things.

I'm going to end this with a quote from a discussion thread from elsewhere. You might like to know this was written by a bloke (and one who is a lot closer to really understanding the problem): "*&%$#! #notallmen , until it's #notanyman, then men need to take responsibility to sort this *&%$#! out. Not being the one who does it isn't good enough. Every man has to be the one who steps up and stops other men from doing it."

The phrase "Men need this spelled out" is synonymous with "all men". It is all-inclusive. It's also a semantic argument which has been overblown (in part by myself, sure).

I don't disagree with you on any particular point other than the above semantic argument.

I do however take offense at your insinuations of my character. I've made none about you. You don't know me, like I don't know you, so ad hominem attacks are idiotic. I don't care about some larger hastag movement - you're the one that mentioned it, not me. I agreed with its literal meaning. I just don't like seeing good people, guys that I know, slandered like we're all criminals and despots. I'm done here because this thread has been derailed.

Edit: Fair point, Icefest. I didn't intend the comment to have that reaction. It was more a "Not all of us are like that, so don't despair every time you come across a guy on a track". I had no idea there was some larger "hashtag" movement, as I stay well away from all things social media.

[Strider]

Men are all sexist and women love a good nag. Move along people!

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

[puredingo]

I'm more sexy than sexist....

[Lophophaps]

Until the post to which you object specifically uses the phrase "all men", it is disingenuous to reply with "not all men". ... Every man has to be the one who steps up and stops other men from doing it."

I'm not going to quote the lot, but the next word applies to the lot: brava. Blokes can be as diplomatic and sensitive as possible. We can step in when anyone is giving a female a troubling time, however inadvertently. We should always aim for these things. But we don't know what it's like on the receiving end because our maleness cannot go there. As all of us should tread lightly in the bush, so should we all tread lightly around others if they so wish, and be aware of the issues raised.

I've been creeped out by one bloke who asked what we were doing on his campsite, a clearing in the forest. We decided to move on as we did not feel comfortable leaving the tent for a day trip. This gave me an inkling about what it's like for some females at some times. This bloke was potty, waving his arms and shouting, not a happy camper. We slept more soundly knowing he could do his worst and we were well away.

[johnk1]

I'm with Strider. Move on everyone.

[neilmny]

Maybe this thread should have been titled "Advise to Sh1#%&Heads" the conversation would have been short.
Forgive me in advance folks but I will always look at your face (not stare) and say hello as I pass by and keep moving.
If anything creeps me out it is people who don't even acknowledge you exist as you pass.
That is seriously weird in my view and those people strike me as a potential threat.

[puredingo]

You nailed it right there, Neil. I honestly couldn't care less if people want to talk to me out in bush, where I walk I see very few, if any, anyway BUT I will always extend the common courtesy of good manners I was taught and acknowledge another persons existence. It's the people who don't return the favour that make me wonder. I don't see them as a threat because I can look after myself but do see it as maybe severe social issues or just plain rudeness.

[dingelberry]

Im a male and I walk alone to not smile and say hello to somebody as your passing is rude to stare at people is weird . Just smile and nod is what I do unfortunately nutters are everywhere best plain of attack I just move on . Remember why your out there try not to let others spoil it for you .

[Xplora]

If anything creeps me out it is people who don't even acknowledge you exist as you pass.
That is seriously weird in my view and those people strike me as a potential threat.

Agree Neil that it is weird but I never feel they are a threat. I just think they come from Melbourne (or insert your nearest capital city) and are conditioned to doing that or are scared to make that eye contact for fear some looney will talk to them. I don't get to the big cities much now but last year I spent a night in Toorak and watched people coming off the trains and walking home. They are all so disconnected to people. Almost everyone was on the phone in some way or had earplugs. Head down at the ground as they marched on. I saw a family sitting in a restaurant waiting for dinner. Kids still in their school uniform, Dad in his suit, BMW M5 or the Bentley out front and nobody talking. All were playing on their phones. I guess some people prefer their interaction with other humans to be via some electronic device. Maybe that is safe for them. I still like to say hello to others I pass and every now and then have a chat at camp or on the trail. After reading some of the things written on this thread, perhaps I may be intruding when I do this and I should be more careful to read the 'leave me alone' signs. I am also more likely to chat to a solo walker. I do this for a couple of reasons but maybe I should rethink those. The first is to find out where they are headed. This contact and the information gleaned could be important should they be reported overdue. The second is because they may just want to hear another voice and share something of their experience. I could have that wrong but generally I can tell if they do not want contact with others. Advice to all Nice People. Steer clear of rude antisocial people regardless of gender and of course never stare.

[GBW]

Forgive me in advance folks but I will always look at your face (not stare) and say hello as I pass by and keep moving.

That's fine mate....but just don't make eye contact or I'll knock your *&%$#! teeth out! (I'm joking)

I just think they come from Melbourne (or insert your nearest capital city) and are conditioned to doing that or are scared to make that eye contact for fear some looney will talk to them.

Come from the city? I live in the suburbs and rarely travel into town, but the other day I caught a train into the MCG and said hello to 5,689 people as they passed by! I think it's a little impractical to say hello to everyone in some circumstances.

It's loud talkin', four wheel drivin', gun lovin', spot lightin', bourbon drinkin', whip crackin', bronco ridin' country folk that freak me out most (insert scene from 'Deliverance' here)

[puredingo]

Once on a particulary hot, long and dreary pull up and out of a valley I struck an old timer sitting at a bend in the track with a little fire going giving his billie a boil. Due to ever increasing anti social climate of bushwalking these days i gave him my standard smile and G'day and kept dragging on up the hill.

"what's the rush?" he asked, told me to have a seat and rest up for a spell. after awhile a map was produced and the old timer let me in on many secrets and passes of that valley and beyond. Stuff I still wouldn't know today had I not been invited to sit awhile.

On the otherhand just last friday whilst making a dash along a track in the afternoon hoping to beat nightfall so I didn't have to set up in the dark I came across a bloke sitting down, having a drink, wearing a BUTCHERS APRON!...

[puredingo]

It's loud talkin', four wheel drivin', gun lovin', spot lightin', bourbon drinkin', whip crackin', bronco ridin' country folk that freak me out most (insert scene from 'Deliverance' here)[/quote]

Ummm, the prefered and correct term is "shine swillin, sister lovin'...and the movie Deliverence already has it's own insert scene.

[north-north-west]

Men are all sexist and women love a good nag.

No, not all men. Not all women, either.
And maybe it's time for some blokes to realise that women who do nag do it because too many men Don't. Really. Listen.

[DanShell]

And maybe it's time for some blokes to realise that women who do nag do it because too many men Don't. Really. Listen.

That comment reminded me of this........

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[Xplora]

Come from the city? I live in the suburbs and rarely travel into town, but the other day I caught a train into the MCG and said hello to 5,689 people as they passed by! I think it's a little impractical to say hello to everyone in some circumstances.

And if you did that then how many said hello back? Yes it is impractical to talk to everyone you pass in the city but my point was the way they disconnect from anyone around them. We can do better as people and a polite word on the trail is nice but rude people are people I never have to see again either.

It's loud talkin', four wheel drivin', gun lovin', spot lightin', bourbon drinkin', whip crackin', bronco ridin' country folk that freak me out most (insert scene from 'Deliverance' here)

I fit 4 out of your 8 so I guess I only half freak you out. You can work out which 4 for yourself. I do agree though that some of the bogans are a bit of a problem but they don't all come from the country.

[maddog]

Righteous nagging is certainly not an attractive quality in a woman. I guess people listen if you have something interesting to say.

On crowded tracks people tend to be reserved because it is draining not to be. On less popular walks, most seem to be happy to greet others and engage in passing conversation. A feeling of mutual interest may be the attraction in some cases.

Statistically I would think bushwalking is very safe when considered from the perspective of physical assault. So towards freaks (though they are often drawn to nature), harmless as they are, perhaps a little tolerance is in order.

drunk and ugly.jpg (10.12 KiB) Viewed 23750 times

[stepbystep]

Oh my days....humblest apologies McGinnie.

Luckily I've been out in the bush through all this...sadly there was just another fella there.

[north-north-west]

Righteous nagging is certainly not an attractive quality in a woman.

So many possible replies. I'll limit myself to two:

1) Oh no!!!! And my self-esteem is totally tied up with men finding me attractive! What will I do?
2) But it's OK when men do it? Oh no, I forgot, when men repeat themselves they're simply reminding inferiors of their responsibilities.

It's just so refreshing to have a discussion on inappropriate behaviour (initially towards women) attract inappropriate comments (about women). So rare. And the way all the blokes jumped in over it . . . well, thanks guys.