Minsiter for Water Snow & Ice

[Ringo]

I think that epirbs being made compulsory is a good idea, we can talk about how much they cost all day but the fact remains that they save time and lives in a rescue situation. I agree that epirbs at $200 are a myth, last i checked getting an epirb under $500 was hard but what cost can you place on the benefits?
By no means do i think that we should not be allowed to walk solo, some of the greatest experiences come when you face the challenges of the wild alone, but if we choose to do that regardless of our experience levels something can always go wrong, so why not make it a lot easier for everyone (including loved ones at home) and take the extra cost and precaution?

Rowan

[Steve73]

I think that epirbs being made compulsory is a good idea, we can talk about how much they cost all day but the fact remains that they save time and lives in a rescue situation. I agree that epirbs at $200 are a myth, last i checked getting an epirb under $500 was hard but what cost can you place on the benefits?
By no means do i think that we should not be allowed to walk solo, some of the greatest experiences come when you face the challenges of the wild alone, but if we choose to do that regardless of our experience levels something can always go wrong, so why not make it a lot easier for everyone (including loved ones at home) and take the extra cost and precaution?

Rowan

Problem is they need to made easily available for hire. The most likely hiker that will get in trouble is the one-off hiker. They're not going to go and spend $500 on a PLB only to use it once.

[Ent]

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[photohiker]

I think it is all relative.

He clearly is not an experienced hiker compared to many here, but compared to the average suburban joe, he clearly has some experience. Good for him that he at least had some food and gear. The snow peg incident sets the bar IMO.

I still think he could have rescued himself by sunday night or early monday if he had been able to work out where he was (ie, if he had a map)

[Nuts]

It does sound like they were quick to initiate the search (despite the attempts to rule that out). In the same vein, I wonder if 'one' would have still been siting there if not 'expecting' that someone would come looking for them? Or would that thought have led to a decision to turn back at the hut rather than push on? Or even 'if the hut wasn't there' and 'one' was forced to camp through a wild night, would that have led to a quick exit the next morning?

This notion of making PLB's compulsory really irks me. Aside from them being only one resource of many that could be considered 'necessary' in planning for safety, I often wonder just how few people it takes to convince lawmakers that 'we' want to continue with this strategy of making laws based on the actions of so few. Responsibility seems to be bandied about like a communist slogan rather than encouraged as a personal attribute. Every time there is an incident the focus for some seems to come on 'change' rather than acknowledging that the system might actually have 'done its job' (or as best we need in a democratic society). The bush will always be dangerous, at what point do we acknowledge the fact that despite technology, there will never be the level of containment and control available in 'ones' living room?

[Ent]

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[johnw]

I will re-state my opinion that I think PLBs are a good idea, as a last resort, particularly for solo trips. But I don't believe that anyone should be forced to buy or carry one. Making them compulsory is prepostorous in my view. As per other posts it would also be impossible to police effectively, and which agency would have the resources anyway?

We really are becoming a cotton wool society. And those who insist on these imposts the loudest are usually those least likely to have first hand knowledge.

Another thought. At what point would these "compulsory" PLBs be deemed as required anyway? After all not all walks are equal, but journalists and uninformed members of the public who would propose such measures wouldn't know the difference. So, using Cradle Mountain as starting point should all of these walks require that a PLB be taken?

a group of walkers doing the Overland track?

anyone going up to Cradle summit in winter?

2 people walking up to Marions lookout in any season?

a granny walking solo around Dove Lake?

going it alone on the Cradle valley boardwalk?

a bus load of Japanese tourists walking to Glacier Rock and back?

walking from the car to the toilet block?

A bit over the top but you can see what I'm getting at.

PS I wonder how many people were killed or injured on the roads yesterday? And that hasn't raised any push for change or as much controversy as this one comparatively minor incident .

[Ringo]

At work we have trialed a number of Sat phones, some had great features like being able text your location to whoever you wish with the push of button but the big issue we found is that few of them had the reliability they boasted. Currently we use Iridium sat phones, which are very reliable and have a decent battery life. The main advantage of an epirb over a sat phone is size. Sat phones tend to be fairly bulky and then require a solid waterproof case to keep your expensive item safe, whereas an epirb comes in a fairly solid case, usually is bought waterproof, can pinpoint your location to within a couple of 100 meters as well as supplying the emergency services with all the details you've attached to your unit (usually address and emergency contact numbers). Epirbs are also a lot cheaper.

I agree that an epirb should not have an impact on the level of difficulty you choose to take on, but as we all know even the best prepared and most experienced walkers can fall victim to the unpredictability of nature and this is where the epirb comes into its own.

[Son of a Beach]

I don't think making PLBs compulsory would reduce the overall cost of search and rescue for bushwalkers (which appears to be the argument from some sectors). It certainly has the potential to decrease the cost for each individual rescue, but I think it would increase the unnecessary triggering of PLBs in situations where there is no real emergency worthy of a rescue, which of course would increase the overall cost of search and rescue for bushwalkers.

[BarryJ]

I bought my first PLB about 10 years ago and a couple of years ago, I upgraded to the new system so I always carry one when walking overnight on my own or in a group but I don't believe it should be mandatory for them to be carried.

[Nuts]

More here:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009 ... 674919.htm

[Ent]

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[BarryJ]

........................................ Or maybe having PLBs with user replaceable batteries so every 5 years PLBs are not chucked out as it is cheaper to buy a new one. ......................................

My obsolete PLB still had good batteries when the "test" button was pressed after eight years.

Edit: Cost per annum was about the same as my fishing license!

[daznkez]

Gday
For an interesting take on where this is all heading;
Have a read of "The Tyranny of the Expert" by Frank Furedi in the Aust. Literary Review on Wednesday just gone.
In essence, normal people using common sense and customary knowledge do not make sound decisions, in the opinion of experts.
These experts are in a position to impose ideas to influence and guide an incompetent public.
This is clearly the case in relation to health, childcare, etc, etc.
I note all the 'outdoor experts' coming out of the woodwork to guide Tim Holding's future and hindsight his past.
No doubt they have a contribution to make, it is the way the politicians retreat behind the expert opinion that worries me.

Daz

[the_camera_poser]

And this guy's making decisions that impact on the welfare of the State of Victoria? For goodness sake- he's shown real high-level decision-making skill. I did dumb things like that when I was an 18-yo kid. How many people's live did this idiot risk? How much of OUR tax money did he *&^%$#! away? What a joke- retire yourself!

This reminds me of the people that stubbornly refuse to leave an area when the fire is coming, despite the CFA telling them their positions are undefendable. In Bogong Village in the 2001 fires these three unmentionables refused to leave, the when the entire village became engulfed in fire they panicked, and the CFA dang near lost a truck and crew rescuing them. The crew had to huddle in the floor or their truck at one point, and the knees of their pants scorched.

When people are this stupid, they shouldn't be allowed to hold positions of responsibility. Not when they flagrantly risk other people's lives. People like this casue people like us to die, leaving families without fathers and mothers, because they have some sort of immortality complex. He should not be in a position of authority.

My beloved Aussie friends, you have a good term for this...

(My wife reckons he was up there looking for water.)

This post has had very minor admin edits. Please keep all content polite and friendly. Criticism is OK. Abuse is not.

[flyfisher]

My obsolete PLB still had good batteries when the "test" button was pressed after eight years.

Yeah my old one is/was still in good working order.
New plb's still seem to be hard to come by. And $$$$

As for walking in groups of four or more, it would make fishing trips to Western lakes etc. hard to organise.
I often go on my lonesome, on the spur of the moment when I like the look of the weather map, and a plb is definitely a comfort when snakebite,heart attack etc. is a possibility.
ff

[north-north-west]

And this guy's making decisions that impact on the welfare of the State of Victoria? For goodness sake- he's shown real high-level decision-making skill. I did dumb things like that when I was an 18-yo kid. How many people's live did this idiot risk? How much of OUR tax money did he *&^%$#@! away? What a joke- retire yourself, fool!
...
When people are this stupid, they shouldn't be allowed to hold positions of responsibility. Not when they flagrantly risk other people's lives. People like this cause people like us to die, leaving families without fathers and mothers, because they have some sort of immortality complex. He should not be in a position of authority....

That seems a rather over-the-top reaction.

Part of leadership is about taking calculated risks. Sometimes those risks pay off and sometimes they don't. If everyone who took a calculated risk and came unstuck was barred from assuming responsibility, there'd be no-one eligible left. Surely someone in his mid-thirties should still be allowed to learn from his mistakes? Or do you expect all politicians to be omniscient?

[ben.h]

And this guy's making decisions that impact on the welfare of the State of Victoria? For goodness sake- he's shown real high-level decision-making skill. I did dumb things like that when I was an 18-yo kid. How many people's live did this idiot risk? How much of OUR tax money did he *&^%$#@! away? What a joke- retire yourself, fool!
...
When people are this stupid, they shouldn't be allowed to hold positions of responsibility. Not when they flagrantly risk other people's lives. People like this cause people like us to die, leaving families without fathers and mothers, because they have some sort of immortality complex. He should not be in a position of authority....

That seems a rather over-the-top reaction.

Part of leadership is about taking calculated risks. Sometimes those risks pay off and sometimes they don't. If everyone who took a calculated risk and came unstuck was barred from assuming responsibility, there'd be no-one eligible left. Surely someone in his mid-thirties should still be allowed to learn from his mistakes? Or do you expect all politicians to be omniscient?

Unfortunately, these types of negative, unhelpful, "after the event" comments are all too common by a small minority on this forum. I much prefer to see a supportive, constructive and helpful BWT community as these types of comments are just plain ugly. People make mistakes (sometimes big ones, inc. the infamous school excursion incidents), but how about rather than "You're stupid, I know better than you, you're an idiot and you're putting my life at risk" comments that don't help anyone, how about a bit of compassion and perhaps some constructive comments after the fact.

The attitudes of a few have made me a less than regular visitor in the last few months

[the_camera_poser]

No- I expect politicians to be smarter than that. Period. This guy's responsible for millions of dollars and the lives/livelihoods of several million people, and he can't make a better decision than to go walking on a frozen ridge without proper gear, companions and an EPIRB? What's his next learning experience going to be, miscalculating the minimum environmental flow of the Murray? If he makes such inanely bad decisions with his own life, what sort of decisions is he making for the rest of Victoria?

Sorry, but we need to expect more from our politicians. I wouldn't hire that guy to plumb my toilet, let alone run a state's water system. We have come to accept third-raters as our leaders, and this is what we get for our lax standards.

What really gets me goat about this guy is that he put so many people at risk through his recklessness. You know that track- it's dangerous even in the Summer. As far as I'm concerned, it is or should be criminally negligent to cause people to have to be out in those conditions in that terrain because of your poor judgement.

I appreciate that people make mistakes, but like my Momma said, "Stupid is as stupid does."

And as for compassion- I have a lot of compassion for the wives and children (and husbands) of the people that were out looking for him over the weekend. People need to learn to respect not only themselves, but also the impact of hteir actions on everyone else.

And I absolutely 100% feel comfortable saying "You're stupid, I know better than you." I would never do what he did, not when I wasa dumb kid, and not now as an adult 2 years younger than him. By taking a soft approach to people like this you lower thestandards for all of us. For goodness sake, the guy is supposed ot be the best of us, a MP, shouldn't he be held up to some sort of standard? Letting him off with "it was a learning experience" is doing nothing more than accepting third best from the very person who owes us 100% best. This man is supposed to be a leader. Leaders don't mistakes like that. If they do, they fall on their swords, resign and move on, or do something dramatic to make it right.

But the most offensive thing for me is that I lived at the foot of Mt Feathertop for 6 years, and during that time I never saw a search anywhere near to that which was carried out for that guy. Not when that school group was lost on Bogong. Not when that guy vanished on Buffalo, only to be found 6 months later at the base of the gorge. But one MP falls due to his own incredible miscalculations, and looses his way on the side of the most distinct peak in all of Victoria, if not Australia, and the whole state turns itself inside out. When those school kids were missing on Bogong in that blizzard a few years ago they certainly didn't carry out that sort of S&R. I guess he's worth more than a bunch of high school kids.

No, I feel no reserve whatsoever being scornful of anyone who did what he did, and neither should you.

[the_camera_poser]

And this guy's making decisions that impact on the welfare of the State of Victoria? For goodness sake- he's shown real high-level decision-making skill. I did dumb things like that when I was an 18-yo kid. How many people's live did this idiot risk? How much of OUR tax money did he *&^%$#@! away? What a joke- retire yourself, fool!
...
When people are this stupid, they shouldn't be allowed to hold positions of responsibility. Not when they flagrantly risk other people's lives. People like this cause people like us to die, leaving families without fathers and mothers, because they have some sort of immortality complex. He should not be in a position of authority....

That seems a rather over-the-top reaction.

Part of leadership is about taking calculated risks. Sometimes those risks pay off and sometimes they don't. If everyone who took a calculated risk and came unstuck was barred from assuming responsibility, there'd be no-one eligible left. Surely someone in his mid-thirties should still be allowed to learn from his mistakes? Or do you expect all politicians to be omniscient?

Unfortunately, these types of negative, unhelpful, "after the event" comments are all too common by a small minority on this forum. I much prefer to see a supportive, constructive and helpful BWT community as these types of comments are just plain ugly. People make mistakes (sometimes big ones, inc. the infamous school excursion incidents), but how about rather than "You're stupid, I know better than you, you're an idiot and you're putting my life at risk" comments that don't help anyone, how about a bit of compassion and perhaps some constructive comments after the fact.

The attitudes of a few have made me a less than regular visitor in the last few months

Oh, and by the way, I think that by NOT treating this as severely as I have done, we will all be encouraging further recklessness. Be a part of the cure, not the problem. Don't make excuses for the guy, make it clear that what he did was completely irresponsible, and should in no way be excused.

Even he didn't try to make an excuse for himself, and admitted great foolishness.

And incidentially, I don't think we should make positive statements in some sort of cum-by-yah, feel-good, it'll-be-ok sense of complacency. I think, that as a group of mature, responsible and seasoned bushwalkers, we should be honest and call this what it was. Irresponsible and reckless. Period. I'm glad the guy's ok, and that some poor sap didn't have to find his body and deal with that for the rest of his or her life, but the way we react to this will influence how peope act in the future. And if that's not helpful, constructive and supportive, I don't know what is.

Ben- take a look at the gear used by the Strollers in the recent walk in the snow- and compare it to what that MP was carrying. Can you see a difference? I think it needs to be clear that there is a difference between the knowledgeable and the unprepared. Then people will truly able to learn from mistakes. If we cushion this in half-baked, soft-hearted statements, then we soften the strength of the message that should be gained from this: DONT GO THERE UNLESS YOU ARE PREPARED.

So, I'm sorry if my attitude has made you a less frequent visitor, though I really fail to see how my, or anyone's attitude, could have done this, but so be it. I do get pretty sick of hearing people take great liberties with other people's lives though. I for one stand by my actions, and my words, as well-considered.

[norts]

Well I am glad there is a politician that goes bushwalking - we need more of them.
Any politician thats goes bushwalking will get get some consideration at the ballot box from me.
Roger

[Son of a Beach]

I would certainly expect politicians to have better judgement and standards than the rest of us when it comes to beaurocracy and government.

I would not expect a politician to have any better judgement about a personal bushwalking trip than a non-politician.

I don't think you can necessarily relate poor preparedness or judgement in a personal bushwalking trip to how good a bloke is as a politician. (I'm not saying he's a good politician - I have no idea).

[corvus]

I was a critic of "the school excursion incident as it was preventable " this incident was an accident where a PLB would have reduced rescue time ,at my age I would not now venture into alpine regions solo but have done in the past well before PLB's and I guess good luck as well as management saw me through.
So rather than finger point with snide comments re the fact that he was an MP lets be thankful that he was rescued and we did not have another Media Frenzy about the dangers of bush walking if he had perished .
There but for .............
c

[the_camera_poser]

Well I am glad there is a politician that goes bushwalking - we need more of them.
Any politician thats goes bushwalking will get get some consideration at the ballot box from me.
Roger

This is true.

Nik- As a lawyer (retired), I base my statements on my experiences. Before making judgements, those in the legal profession, either as lawyers, judges, or especially as law-makers, should consider the odds. It is that sort of logical, analytical approach that he is paid the big bucks for.

But at the end of the day, he's admitted that he was a dill, which is good, but I'd sure like to see him do something to restitute the folks that spent so much to rescue him.

Corvus, I know you (from the forum) well enough to believe that you would have taken some sort of safety gear with you. Have you been on the Feathertop track? It's a knife's edge track, straight down a long, long way, completely exposed and dangerous even in Summer.

I'm not trying to be snide. I'm outraged. I know that none of us would ever get the treatment he got, and I also know that few of us would put ourselves in his position. Snide is snitchy, grumpy, that sort of thing. I feel deep offense over the whole affair.

It's like those politcians involved with that Iguana Club fiasco some time ago- can't we expect more from these people? Don't we deserve better?

Anyhow, I've said my bit, and couldn't be bothered continuing to let my blood pressure boil over this. If people think that I am bringing the forum down with whatever Ben attributed to me, then they can put me on ignore.

[Son of a Beach]

Nik- As a lawyer (retired), I base my statements on my experiences. Before making judgements, those in the legal profession, either as lawyers, judges, or especially as law-makers, should consider the odds. It is that sort of logical, analytical approach that he is paid the big bucks for.

He's paid big bucks to do this for his constituents when making governing decisions on their behalf. Not for making decisions about his own personal bushwalks. I just don't think that being a dill in one areas necessarily makes you a dill in another area of your life.

I know that none of us would ever get the treatment he got

You're probably right here, but that's not his fault. Appart from triggering a search and rescue in the first place, he had no active contribution to how the search and rescue took place. You probably aren't blaming him for this, but I thought I'd point it out anyhow.

[Nuts]

Bushwalkers in general are supposed to be from the 'smarter' end of town, from what iv'e seen, this is never reflected in their practical capabilities.

Politicians, c'mon, you really expect leadership and sound decisions?
And as a former lawyer And 'former' American

This, being a community forum, however, should be firstly inclusive.

[the_camera_poser]

Also, as an aside, a lot of those people who were out looking for him are friends of mine. I know how dangerous their work is.

And as the wife is saying, the government and everyone else is calling this guy an experienced bushwalker.

But I still stand by my words, to be a politician, you must have good judgement. Not just in politics, but in life.

[corvus]

Please correct me if I am wrong but I believe Search and Rescue operates the same for all regardless as was evinced in "the school incident" recently and many others that I am aware of in the past in Tassie.
As it should be after all what price a life and indeed we have S&R personnel trained especially to cater for accidents and idiocy we are only human after all.
c

[Nuts]

Also, as an aside, a lot of those people who were out looking for him are friends of mine. I know how dangerous their work is.

Yes, it is, should never be taken lightly (or for granted)

And as the wife is saying, the government and everyone else is calling this guy an experienced bushwalker.

Clearly he didnt have the level of experience necessary (that now makes three of us )

But I still stand by my words, to be a politician, you must have good judgement. Not just in politics, but in life.

I agree. I dont know though, perhaps it just isnt on the position description for them or something, i dunno

[tasadam]

Something we need to consider is that this sort of thing can happen to any of us here.
One would hope the results won't be as bad as stuck in below freezing conditions for two nights (or worse), but the fact is any one of us could take a fall, break a bone, whatever. And many armchair walkers will read about it here and form opinions on what a dill that person was (or otherwise) because of the lack of preparedness they had, to deal with such an incident.
We don't all go walking along ice covered knife edge tracks solo without the right equipment or a PLB, but we all take risks to some degree - how many times do you think you would find yourself in a spot of bother if you fell or twisted your ankle and couldn't walk?

We all have the right as individuals to form opinions, and as a forum we also have the right to express those opinions.
Do remember rule 1 - Keep all content friendly, polite and clean. All content should be suitable for a family audience, and no content should be unduly critical of other people. Abuse, obscenity and offensive content may be deleted without warning.
Whether he's a politician or not.

A member of this forum was walking solo without a PLB and rescued himself with a broken leg. That seems to me to be somewhat more serious, yet some of us are paying out on this politician.
I would like to think it is not because he is a politician.
Perhaps consider your comments as being said about yourself, then ask yourself whether you think they are fair / valid. And do remember this is a friendly forum.