Pack Weight 45% of body weight

[Ent]

Um?

Some of the information that comes from some "Army" sources is a little suspect, especially with pack weights. One "ex SAAS" salesperson that worked for a company I worked for quoted ridiculous weights and time for the 10 kilometre run. Basically a SAAS platoon with army boots and 50 kilograms packs would have taken out the top ten placings had they entered a team in the Burnie Ten so me thinks more than a grain of salt is needed with certain claims. Also some of the other information was more in the line of Bollywood fiction, by that, even more unbelievable than Hollywood, regarding accurate weapon range. Military specifications tend to be rather overstated by some with 50 knot super aircraft carriers, etc.

I have no doubt that at times Army units in emergencies have carried extraordinary weights but find it a but dubious that that is standard practice.

That aside, if you train to carry certain weights then the body is able to adjust, just helps being young not middle aged or older I seek to carry a certain weight for any overnight walk that matches the weight for multi-night walks and just cut back the comfort items. This means hills are not the shock that they could be when heading out for a longer time. If you train with say five kilograms and then ramp up to ten for the big walk then, light as that is, it is still twice what you are use to so may cause issues. A fit young guide used to lugging weights should be ok. As for the haulage mules that service the tour companies one in particular carries impressive loads but as he says, It is his living so no sweat as he is used to it. For me just dial 000 and asked for the cardiac team to be ready with and orthopaedic surgeon on standby if I succeed.

Cheers Brett

[NickD]

I was referring to my age more to justify the stupidity of carrying the pack than the ability
Our food drop guy has been known to carry pack weights beyond the guides ability and walk at lightning speed, and he is in his mid forties.

I don't know what the go is in the army, I've guided a few guys from the army before and whilst they were very fit and strong, I wondered how they would have gone with double the pack weight. Is it possible that SOME folk in the hardcore leagues of the armed forces carry 50 odd kg and the rest have just adopted that weight as theirs also....?

[Nuts]

Since im not allowed to bother i've saved your comments to show anyone who ever complains about carrying a Maximum of around 25kg

[Nuts]

The Navy, being the 'premier' force , runs the combined services hospital (HMAS Penguin, Mosman, Sydney).
I worked in the surgical ward in the hospital for the final 18mths of my term.
By far, of the 000's of things that fit young blokes could need surgery for, knee reconstruction was at the top of the list.
In addition: No, not from what I witnessed on exercises would i ever have seen a pack weight living up to many of those you see mentioned whenever the topic comes up.

[Ent]

Hi Nuts

Thanks for confirmation that some Army quoted weights are a little enthusatic in the reporting. One ex soilder described a force march with packs being accompanied with a line of ambulance stretching back down the road with a usage rate if applied to normal bushwalkers would require a fleet of helicopters for an average day in summer,

The main thing is carry what does not break you and no more as the top limit and then work down from that. It would be fair say the more you walk the lighter the gear you take or use becomes. Knees are bad in Australia due to Football and Netball being the worst sports for knee injury. For the fit and young injury rather than over use would be the issue I would imagine. As for the older wear and tear is an issue with standard problem is many forty somethings are twenty something overweight. Weigh less and carry more food Um? then eat it andf weigh more so carry less Life is just one big circle

Cheers Brett

[Nuts]

Just what I remember Brett, couldn't say it doesn't happen. I never noticed a set of scales anywhere either though.
The points I would make are just that it is easy to injure your knees, can happen at any age and surgery (despite those with positive results) is generally not successful.

Wear and tear injuries, from what I understand, are mostly a result of misalignment. This is obviously possible with poor design (ie genes) though occurs with muscle imbalances in muscles (around the knee) that are mostly not used much everyday , effected by other injuries and/or starting to reduce due to aging.

Also imagine that the time between seasons or trips (for guides) would place them at risk early in the season or in extended breaks between trips. In these situations I dont think it would take long at all to cause long term damage. Those suffering the effects wont likely be the ones out leading tours or passing on advise to fellow guides. They are likely though the silent majority of those who have (especially) worked in the field for any length of time.

[Tony]

Load carriage (backpacking) is of very high interest to the world’s military and they have done and do a lot of research into load carriage, it is one of my special interests, I have a lot of research papers on the topic. Load carriage is not an easy thing to quantify as it has many variables. Some of the main ones are physical size of carrier, fitness, age, gender, experience, mass of load, backpack harness, load distribution.

As can be seen from the graph below Military loads have been going up in modern times. Sometimes in the US military, personnel may have to carry twice the normally recommended loads, which include communications gear, weapons, ammunition, food, water and body armour. In the US army, there have been instances of marches were soldiers have carried 76kg more than twice the recommended 32kg load.

Tony

Graph of infantry load carriage through history



Injuries
Below are two graphs of injuries experienced during two road marches in two studies.

[ILUVSWTAS]

Thanks for the back up there Tony!
I wish I could say more on the guy I know, but he is a guy that "has no role" at "no location" and probably has "no I.D" I fear i've already said too much..

[Lindsay]

The April -June 1996 issue of Australian Geographic contains an article about the Army and gives a fairly detailed description of the typical load an Infantry soldier would carry. The basic kit is about 40 kg, with a total between 50-60 kg depending on the weapons carried. Makes me glad I joined the Navy instead.

[Nuts]

Yer, while your obviously right that the effect is going to also be different on different body types, I cant really see any general conclusions that can be taken from those charts youve copied Tony?
Distance would obviously need to be taken into account?
The application of the second and third charts doesnt really say much for long term injury? (which was what I (at least) was on about) (Blisters dont usually require surgery...).
Seems like a poor example? Surely you can do better
What are your conclusions?
Everyone carried way too much?
Injuries increase with distance?

[Tony]

Hi Nuts,

Yer, while your obviously right that the effect is going to also be different on different body types, I cant really see any general conclusions that can be taken from those charts youve copied Tony?
Distance would obviously need to be taken into account?
The application of the second and third charts doesnt really say much for long term injury? (which was what I (at least) was on about) (Blisters dont usually require surgery...).
Seems like a poor example? Surely you can do better
What are your conclusions?
Everyone carried way too much?
Injuries increase with distance?

I do not have the time at the moment, nothing stopping you doing the research yourself, I look forward to reading your results.


Tony

[ILUVSWTAS]

My conclusion would be DONT join the army as it's hazardous to your well-being

[Nuts]

Yes, you may stubb a toe!

Tony I'm not that interested, too late for me, I learn by repetition (similar outcome to to thinking just takes longer)
Just observations were all!
Why is you avatar getting smaller

[Ent]

Hi Nuts

Knee issues is heavily dependent on genetics with careful selection of ones parents been in order or at least according to my surgeon. A common problem is the cartilage splits and then folds up "jambing" the joint. Depending on age this can be trimmed back or even rejoined. Age is the main cause. General results are good, or so I was told and experienced. Another common issue is the knee cap slapping back into the knee when running down hills thus breaking bits off that go back through the knee. Results not as good as damage to the articular cartilage is not self repairing and once that is gone it is bone on bone resulting in knee replacement, if bad enough. I was lucky but told in no uncertain terms not to run down hills, up and along the flat, ok, but not downhill.

One common issue as Nuts alluded to is misalignment. With our modern lifestyle one side of the knee does not get a work out so the knee gets pulled out of alignment by the now stronger side. I have a friend with that issue amoungst others. Exercises help and will correct the problem but tend to be not done by most suffers.

Probably the biggest issue is body mass with many of us overweight. I like the idea of Flyfisher, that being lossing weight in total, ie body and pack. At my ideal weight I would be carrying more than 45% based on my current gross weight

As for increasing weight in the army it is probably body armour rather than pack weight that is driving this up at the moment. Possums can be bad, but not that bad

Cheers Brett

[Son of a Beach]

Yer, while your obviously right that the effect is going to also be different on different body types, I cant really see any general conclusions that can be taken from those charts youve copied Tony?
Distance would obviously need to be taken into account?
The application of the second and third charts doesnt really say much for long term injury? (which was what I (at least) was on about) (Blisters dont usually require surgery...).
Seems like a poor example? Surely you can do better

That's a little harsh, I think.

What are your conclusions?
Everyone carried way too much?
Injuries increase with distance?

That's a reasonable point. The first chart is interesting, and surprising to me - I would have expected technology to result in lighter loads, but I guess they just carry more stuff. But I'm not sure what conclusions should be drawn from the other two tables - I can't help but feel that they need more context to be useful.

[Nuts]

Yer, was bit harsh perhaps. My post was more about some personal experience. I'm sure Tony (or Brett) dont think 45% of bodyweight is anything sensible.
Wasnt even really disagreeing with the data, 40kg is a well packed large backpack and believable. Never had much experience with US forces (besides a few 'tourist' visits to their carriers) but they do things differently to our (UK originated) way. From what iv'e Heard or Read, they dont Generally carry stuff very far...

[Moondog55]

If I remember correctly my skin out load ( summer) as a signalman in the Army Reserve days of old was 62kg including the spare batteries for the 10 set and my share of the machine gun belts ( 1 belt only ) that was more than I weighed as a teenager and at the end of the day I could hardly stand, but I have carried at least that much once or twice on the first 2 days of extended walks in the Mt Hotham area in winter, it matters how you weigh everything too; as a pack load or total weight carried from the skin out, my old winter boots were double leather and weighed almost 8kg a pair

[Liamy77]

i know with dogpacking (another of my walking hobbies) when in condition 25 - 30% is about the best maximum load.... i don't like to work harder than my dogs! but if some of you folk wanna prove it your welcome to carry my gear next time i'm in the area!

[tasadam]

Our food drop guy has been known to carry pack weights beyond the guides ability and walk at lightning speed, and he is in his mid forties.

This said person is actually a good mate of mine, and I went for a walk with him when he was doing a drop to Waterfall Valley a bit over a week ago.
He had a pack that was well loaded, and I tried it on at Dove Lake carpark. That is, I tried to try it on...
I could pick it up, I thought about swinging it onto my shoulder, but I thought better. It was too heavy. I felt I was seriously going to do myself an injury if I had put that pack on.
Now I'm not the bulkiest muscly guy around, with a typical body weight of about 62 kg's. As said, I've started a 15 day walk with a tad over 30 kg's. But this was completely another dimension.
He's about 80 kg's, fit sort of guy (as you'd need to be in that line of work), but that pack was apparently a little over 40 kg's.
He can have that job to himself!