Is risking your own life really fair on others?

[flyfisher]

Sometimes the joy and good fun of a walk with trusted mates can be made almost too hard by the prophets of doom and naysayers--- get out there before you worry yourself into an early grave.

[trickos]

Sometimes the joy and good fun of a walk with trusted mates can be made almost too hard by the prophets of doom and naysayers--- get out there before you worry yourself into an early grave.

all in favour, say aye.

aye

[taswegian]

Sometimes the joy and good fun of a walk with trusted mates can be made almost too hard by the prophets of doom and naysayers

Flyfisher I didn't take this question to be this sort of adventure. I agree with your comment.
My thoughts were for those 'clowns/ heroes' that venture off into the never never (Sea, wilderness areas etc) on their own and for there own glory with little respect for anyone else.
eg - setting off to cross Bass Straight on a lilo mid winter with a half dozen coconuts to see them through. (Thats probbaly stretching it a bit)

[walkinTas]

If I could be a little pedantic and say it might be a question of defining "risk".

An example: A well prepared person could scale a vertical ice wall a few 100 metres tall, or even a frozen water fall. It would require experience, understanding and knowledge. I imagine you would need to know the dangers and be able to avoid the pit falls. You would certainly need the right equipment and need to know how to use it. For some people there would be a very small risk or no risk at all. For others, like myself, with no knowledge or experience of ice climbing at all, this would be an extremely risky and foolhardy thing to do. The key here is "risk".

Is risking your own life really fair to others? IMO No! If you know or think it is really risky and go anyway, or if you don't stop and think about the risk before you go, then you are potentially being dumb and/or inconsiderate - foolhardy at the least.

An if you do head off and get yourself into trouble, should others risk their lives to help you? IMO No! Rescuer's have every right to evaluate the risk and to say it is just too dangerous to go out there and help that person, so we won't go or we'll wait until it is less of a risk. Again its a question of how much risk is involved and a person (in this case a rescuer) understanding their own capability and the dangers they will be exposed to.

[alliecat]

Is risking your own life really fair to others? IMO No! If you know or think it is really risky and go anyway, or if you don't stop and think about the risk before you go, then you are potentially being dumb and/or inconsiderate - foolhardy at the least.

What he said.

Cheers,
Allicat

[Taurë-rana]

Risk is an interesting thing. I am less risk averse now my boys are older than I was when they were little. I now have a road bike which I wouldn't have got several years ago. The consequence of that of course is that I can't very well stop my eldest son from also riding one. I thought about risk quite a bit while going up Mt Emmett on Tuesday - I had a PLB, warm clothing, a GPS into which I put regular waypoints, and first aid gear with me. But the holes between the boulders were huge and no-one would ever find me if I'd fallen in. Like Lizzy, I prepared myself for problems as much as I could, and at regular intervals assessed whether I was still comfortable with the situation and when I decided that I would no longer be comfortable with continuing, and the risk of something going wrong increased, I turned round. I would not have turned round at that point if I'd had a companion. I think that if the likelihood of something going drastically wrong is fairly low then the risk is worth taking, and my death in that situation would be unfortunate, but not as bad in my book as being killed by some idiot on the road.

[MJD]

Who cares?

Are we going to ban car racing, long distance ocean races, motor bikes, cigarettes, jet skis, getting out of bed... just to list a few potentially dangerous activities? How about a blanket ban on living? Where do you draw the line? Are you going to penalise the competent to allow for the lowest common denominator?

And if someone wants "to set off to cross Bass Straight on a lilo mid winter with a half dozen coconuts to see them through" then we can always hope that Darwin's Theory holds true.

And what about the idiot on the right trying to get 3 peak bagging points?

[stu]

LOL MJD
I can tell you now I wasn't going to repeat that one, I draw my risk taking line there!

Some people need adventure / adrenalin / excitement of this kind in their lives, others don't, fair enough, it takes all sorts.
If someone told Columbus, Cook, Shackleton, Hillary, Armstrong or any number of other great (ok, a couple of these are disputable) explorers not to take the risk where would we be today? It is in the human spirit to crave the unexplored, the wild and the oft times dangerous.

Society is intent on bubble wrapping everything / everyone these days, let alone the litigious nature of our modern world which seems to be creeping more & more into our outdoors pursuits. There will always be those that pursue risk, however the individual defines tha, but again, thats just the human spirit isn't it?

Cliched quotes follow:

Live every act fully, as if it were your last. - Buddha.

What would life be if we had no courage to attempt anything? - Vincent van Gogh

It's only when we truly know and understand that we have a limited time on earth -- and that we have no way of knowing when our time is up -- that we will begin to live each day to the fullest, as if it was the only one we had. - Elisabeth Kubler-Ross

I don't want to get to the end of my life and find that I lived just the length of it. I want to have lived the width of it as well. - Diane Ackerman -

[flyfisher]

Fully agree with the tone of the last 2 posts.
Doesn't mean I agree with people doing stupid or irresponsible things, but planned and thought through activities... yeah, do it....carefully.
ff

[Nuts]

Hogwash ( )

Everyone searching for something, they are called 'cliches' for a reason. While strangely enough I can relate to some of the thoughts doesnt make any more sense of the reasons why we think (eg) bashing through scrub to reach a summit that someone else has (and will also) 'conquer' is something worthwhile. Even stranger 'something you would like to be doing on that last day'. Making sense of things because others have isnt right or wrong. Perhaps Shackleton would have Chosen his last day in bed with his feet up (and thawed). I can think of many ways to go better than a slow gut wound from a spear Would it have mattered if Cook or Columbus hada stayed home, i dont really think so. 'Live every act fully' didnt buddha spend most of his life on his *&%$#!? bot bot

Saying again, they are not Needs, very little is Necessary. What triggers people to feel the urge justify them as such?

Maybe we Should require a waiver for all those things done unnecessarily. Its mostly the world made and lived by the majority of bushwalkers, those from a society of the privileged few... Let us die by the sword i say

Last edited by Nuts on Sat 18 Dec, 2010 8:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

[flyfisher]

Let he who is without sin throw the first spear.

[Nuts]

Well thats not me! Im a sinner. I must be, was 'excommunicated' for a while overnight! Was I the first?
Not advocating anarchy or anything but it was strangely liberating (even if a Trifle disappointing) who knows what carp ill come out with next

[photohiker]

Saying again, they are not Needs, very little is Necessary. What triggers people to feel the urge justify them as such?

I can answer that

We NEED the freedom to choose our WANTS.

Problem solved!

This is a bit like the 'work to live' or 'live to work' argument...

[tasadam]

Cliched quotes follow:

Live every act fully, as if it were your last. - Buddha.

What would life be if we had no courage to attempt anything? - Vincent van Gogh

It's only when we truly know and understand that we have a limited time on earth -- and that we have no way of knowing when our time is up -- that we will begin to live each day to the fullest, as if it was the only one we had. - Elisabeth Kubler-Ross

I don't want to get to the end of my life and find that I lived just the length of it. I want to have lived the width of it as well. - Diane Ackerman

These are good. These deserve a topic of their own so that others can be added.

[Nuts]

Saying again,

they are not Needs, very little is Necessary. What triggers people to feel the urge justify them as such?
I can answer that

We NEED the freedom to choose our WANTS.

Problem solved!

This is a bit like the 'work to live' or 'live to work' argument...

Yes, it is. However. we dont even need that freedom. We have had it otherwise we wouldn't know what was missing...

'They are not Needs, very little is Necessary. What triggers people to feel the urge justify them as such?' nuts 2010

[Nuts]

Cliched quotes follow:

Live every act fully, as if it were your last. - Buddha.

What would life be if we had no courage to attempt anything? - Vincent van Gogh

It's only when we truly know and understand that we have a limited time on earth -- and that we have no way of knowing when our time is up -- that we will begin to live each day to the fullest, as if it was the only one we had. - Elisabeth Kubler-Ross

I don't want to get to the end of my life and find that I lived just the length of it. I want to have lived the width of it as well. - Diane Ackerman

These are good. These deserve a topic of their own so that others can be added.

Theres a 'place'... a little bin symbol down there V

[ILUVSWTAS]

Post removed by request.

[stepbystep]

Nice Phoebe, you really need to have a talk with my wife

....and to answer the question at hand - yes, no, maybe "....ke sera sera....."

[Nuts]

Hi Phoebe, welcome to the forum.

It's nice to see that this question has stirred some debate relating to the nature of risk and the consequences of risk taking on others, though I would have to say that merely stating the obvious.......eg When you're dead, you're dead, and such, doesn't, in my humble opinion address the essenece of the question, nor advance the arguments one way or the other. Having said that, it's still important that each has their say, and are (obviously) still alive to say it.

[photohiker]

We NEED the freedom to choose our WANTS.

Problem solved!

This is a bit like the 'work to live' or 'live to work' argument...

Yes, it is. However. we dont even need that freedom. We have had it otherwise we wouldn't know what was missing...

'They are not Needs, very little is Necessary. What triggers people to feel the urge justify them as such?' nuts 2010

You speak for yourself.

I need the freedom to make a choice. Whether I know that there is a choice in any particular instance does not change the basic need. Making choices is part of the human condition and a big part of what forms us as individuals.

[Nuts]

I dont see much argument Norm. I do think (the context of) 'when your dead your dead' is probably valid. All said and done the thoughts triggered by such a line could very much 'have' mattered. Rather than dismissed as something negative it surely gives some grounding to rosey thoughts?

We NEED the freedom to choose our WANTS.

Problem solved!

This is a bit like the 'work to live' or 'live to work' argument...

Yes, it is. However. we dont even need that freedom. We have had it otherwise we wouldn't know what was missing...

'They are not Needs, very little is Necessary. What triggers people to feel the urge justify them as such?' nuts 2010

You speak for yourself. No argument there


I need the freedom to make a choice. Whether I know that there is a choice in any particular instance does not change the basic need. Making choices is part of the human condition and a big part of what forms us as individuals.

You have the freedom to make choices, you have the education to know this and what those choices are. You have the privledge to act on them

[flyfisher]

Aren't we in a lucky country to have such choices to make.

[Nuts]

ah yes, we certainly are ollie

[Nuts]

Aint she a peach.

Seems that way, a smart peach too!
(I'd imagine that you know what the risks are and your limitations through experience. It is pretty obvious that some learn through reading, trying and hoping )

[ILUVSWTAS]

Seems that way, a smart peach too!
(I'd imagine that you know what the risks are and your limitations through experience. It is pretty obvious that some learn through reading, trying and hoping )

Yep, Only case against that is she married me.

That pic of MJD climbing that rock on his avatar, I recently declined attempting to climb that due to not feeling comfortable. I guess that shows I sometimes put judgement in front of points

May I digress for a moment and ask at what point 'summit fever' takes over from 'common sense' and if, as a result the elusive summit remains by you forever untrodden..........was the decision the best for those left behind?

OK, so its not a digression, more an attempt to pull the thread back in line with the original point.

Oh, and whilst I accept that 'dead is dead' therfore of no further consequence for the person deceased, the point of the question remains the impact that it has on others, not you..........you're brown bread remember!

[tasadam]

May I digress for a moment and ask at what point 'summit fever' takes over from 'common sense' and if, as a result the elusive summit remains by you forever untrodden..........was the decision the best for those left behind?

A fair point. Here is a photo taken from the summit of Mt Ossa, middle of winter 2007. Well, Almost to the summit.
I couldn't tell whether there were snow-covered deep crags in between the rocks between me and the highest bit, so this is as close as we came. No "summit fever" for me.

[Nuts]

peaks almost bagged-----> 08

Last edited by Nuts on Sun 19 Dec, 2010 6:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[Macca81]

Oh, and whilst I accept that 'dead is dead' therfore of no further consequence for the person deceased, the point of the question remains the impact that it has on others, not you..........you're brown bread remember!

does the impact REALLY change that much, whether you are dead from a bushwalking incident or a car crash? for that matter, would the impact upon those around you, be greater if death was as a result of a car crash that was caused by someone else, rather than just an unfortunate accident?

i stand by the point that life is a risk.
for some people, the simplest of tasks can pose a risk to life. to others, tasks that we consider momentous are nothing more than a walk in the park.

as to the question of is it FAIR on others? well, maybe not. but, we humans as a species are very self centred, it is more likely that we will all continue to fulfil our own wants before putting the wants and needs of the wider community at the forefront...