Walking in areas of significance to Tradtional Owners

[Eremophila]

A couple of years ago, when I had just moved to Tassie, I posted on here about walking in the Marrawah region and Mt Cameron West (not to be confused with Mt Cameron). Someone pointed me in the direction of a local Aboriginal organisation, and on contacting that organisation it was clear they wanted no-one walking on the "mountain". It's really just a small hill on the coast. But it's certainly considered an area of significance.
There are carvings in the area which they have allowed to become overgrown, to prevent the "wrong" people seeing them and of course to prevent vandalism.
Tasmanian Aboriginals were considered eradicated, but I understand many people were shipped off to Flinders Island and then returned much later, not necessarily to their homelands, but placed willy-nilly which must have been very disturbing to them on top of all else. Quite different to the granting of homelands in the NT where you must prove your association with a particular region.
I did see a fabulous looking book in the Devonport bookshop on Tasmanian history, but never got round to buying it as it was rather expensive

[GPSGuided]

I read there were descendants of mixed "marriages" with early sealers and their offsprings ended up with more European than native genes in successive generations.

[stepbystep]

The Tasmanian Aboriginal culture was recorded primarily by G. A. Robinson with bits and pieces from many others. Robinson spent a lot of time with Aboriginals like Wooreddy and Truganini on his 'friendly mission'. Today's Aboriginal community consists of the descendents of those taken to Flinders and Cape Barren Islands. Many also came back to the Oyster Cove settlement. There is a concerted effort to make sure what knowledge survived remains and is spread through the wider Tasmanian community. I have worked on some of these projects and can only hope they gain momentum, acceptance and become common knowledge. It is unimportant to me how "pure" the bloodlines of the descendants are, but it is very important to me as to how pure their motivations are.
The Tasmanian Aboriginal story is probably the most shameful chapter in Australia's history.

I still can't see why people think this is complex. This is the story of our land. We have a responsibility to look after it, it's stories and it's people. We are the new custodians and frankly we are doing a terrible disservice to those that went before us. The solutions may be complex but understanding the need for respect couldn't be simpler.

Some might find this interesting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JW7tZ4JPqEI

[slparker]

I suspect a lot of the peaks in Tassie would have been off-limit had the natives survived till this day.

possibly, but there is little detail in the ethnographic record of 'sacred sites' except for the ochre mines in the Gog range and even then the sites may have been be more economic than sacred. there is record of some mountains been regarded as fallen or sleeping deities (my wording) such as in Port Davey and, less reliably, the Hazards.
there's a long history of vandalism, by rednecks, of Tasmanian aboriginal cultural remnants (including petroglyphs and remnant dwellings) so it's right that access to sites of significance is restricted.

[slparker]

The Tasmanian Aboriginal culture was recorded primarily by G. A. Robinson with bits and pieces from many others. Robinson spent a lot of time with Aboriginals like Wooreddy and Truganini on his 'friendly mission'. Today's Aboriginal community consists of the descendents of those taken to Flinders and Cape Barren Islands. Many also came back to the Oyster Cove settlement. There is a concerted effort to make sure what knowledge survived remains and is spread through the wider Tasmanian community. I have worked on some of these projects and can only hope they gain momentum, acceptance and become common knowledge. It is unimportant to me how "pure" the bloodlines of the descendants are, but it is very important to me as to how pure their motivations are.
The Tasmanian Aboriginal story is probably the most shameful chapter in Australia's history.

I still can't see why people think this is complex. This is the story of our land. We have a responsibility to look after it, it's stories and it's people. We are the new custodians and frankly we are doing a terrible disservice to those that went before us. The solutions may be complex but understanding the need for respect couldn't be simpler.

Some might find this interesting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JW7tZ4JPqEI

Interesting SBS - I'm curious as to how much survives in the oral tradition of the descendants from the Flinder's island mission (as scanty as that remnant was) - my impression was that any overt cultural demonstration was likely suppressed by the zealous christian overseers. I've jsut started reading plomley's 'weep in silence' which will give me a little more detail, I'm sure .
There surely must be many descendants of aboriginal women that persisted in mainland Tasmania as well - the historical record alludes to many settler -aboriginal couplings and there was a recorded marriage in 1830 of two aboriginals raised by settlers in Nile (characters in Rohan Wilson's Roving party). I reckon there's many a tasmanian walking around with known or unknown tasmanian aboriginal blood (and not from flinders island) - although I don't recall anyone I knew that claimed this when I grew up in tassy.

[michael_p]

Some might find this interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JW7tZ4JPqEI

That was really interesting. Thank you.

[GPSGuided]

I still can't see why people think this is complex. This is the story of our land. We have a responsibility to look after it, it's stories and it's people. We are the new custodians and frankly we are doing a terrible disservice to those that went before us. The solutions may be complex but understanding the need for respect couldn't be simpler.

Hear, hear! Making it complex is just a SOP to absolve blame and responsibilities. Highly effective too most of the time.

[GPSGuided]

Some might find this interesting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JW7tZ4JPqEI

Indeed interesting. But I assume the described aboriginal interaction (bush burning) is not applicable down in Tasmania.

[Travis22]

Some might find this interesting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JW7tZ4JPqEI

Thoroughly enjoyed that Stepbystep, thanks for sharing it. The outback means the world to me.

Travis.

[slparker]

Some might find this interesting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JW7tZ4JPqEI

Indeed interesting. But I assume the described aboriginal interaction (bush burning) is not applicable down in Tasmania.

The tasmanian aborigines burned extensively. If they hadn't there would be much more rainforest, much less eucalypt forest and much fewer buttongrass plains. see Bill gammage's 'The biggest estate on earth' for an extensive treatise on aboriginal burning practises on the mainland and in Tassy.

[Nuts]

hmmm,
How are the fire regime and observations of depleted species within traditional lands relevant to bushwalking in areas of significance to traditional owners?

[slparker]

hmmm,
How are the fire regime and observations of depleted species within traditional lands relevant to bushwalking in areas of significance to traditional owners?

from looking back at the thread the link is 'traditional owners' I reckon. Or is your comment a veiled: 'I'm a thread nazi and please get this discussion back on track' ?

[Nuts]

No, enjoyed the short clip and agree with SBS's conclusions and sentiments. Yes, maybe I am just 'thread nazi' ?
Perhaps I just miss the link, if it's something offered of concern in it's own right, that's fine? But yes, I think it's a good focused topic (in it's own right).

[walkerchris77]

Exciting stuff.

[walkon]

I still can't see why people think this is complex. This is the story of our land. We have a responsibility to look after it, it's stories and it's people. We are the new custodians and frankly we are doing a terrible disservice to those that went before us. The solutions may be complex but understanding the need for respect couldn't be simpler.

Some might find this interesting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JW7tZ4JPqEI

It's not complex, just get rid of the 'us and them' mentality, make it an 'our' and the problem is well on the way to being solved.

[Nuts]

Exactly. As can be applied to all conservation issues.

[GPSGuided]

Unfortunately human has a tendency to be an individual. Must be different to the other guy. That individualism!

[stry]

Some pretty thought provoking and to my mind balanced and sensible, posts appearing in this thread as it moves along.

Thanks all. I'll keep watching and reading.

[geoskid]

I still can't see why people think this is complex. This is the story of our land. We have a responsibility to look after it, it's stories and it's people. We are the new custodians and frankly we are doing a terrible disservice to those that went before us. The solutions may be complex but understanding the need for respect couldn't be simpler.

If you are talking about the question in the OP, the reason it's complex is because of definitions - or it's complex because it's not simple
What is meant by significant?
What is meant by 'Traditional Owner'? It certainly does not mean their word is gospel. See here ; http://www.nntt.gov.au/Mediation-and-ag ... owners.pdf

I agree with the rest of the post, but it does not address the question.
Perhaps another reason you mistakenly see the issue as simple is you continue to conflate respect for the person with respect for their ideas/beliefs/demands.

[whitefang]

Some might find this interesting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JW7tZ4JPqEI

Excellent watch, stepbystep.

[geoskid]

I have been bogged down this week thinking about this topic whilst working.

For some reason I had to go right back to basics and try and get my head around ownership, and the difference between ownership of land and objects in particular.

Anyway, some may be interested so I will leave this here - Philosophy of Ownership :

https://mises.org/books/ownership.pdf

[Nuts]

Here's how the red robin got its red breast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aF7Pbr1ME5c
(You're funny geoskid, most people looking for answers, you seem to like the questions in themselves. I considered your thoughts on the depth of discussion, making headway in such a topic is probably doomed to go not much further than whats already available with a google search)

[simonm]

I think the term "traditional owners" could be misleading, even the term Aboriginal or Indigenous is limiting as it doesn't recognise the cultural differences that exist throughout the land.

I spent some time working in an Aboriginal community on the coast of NSW and had the pleasure of going out bush regularly with some of the elders and young men, collecting wood for spear shafts, nulla nullas, boomerangs, and resin from grass trees, among other things. They had an enormous knowledge of the local bush and the history, it was awesome to
be around. I grew up in this particular area but had no knowledge of the rich cultural history that existed.

These men were heavily into maintaining and practicing their culture, through much hardship. They were extremely welcoming to me as a white fella, and on out first outing into the bush when I enquired about their connection to land they were adamant that this was all our land and no-one owns it. We all had a connection and a collective responsibility to look after it.

It was clear to me though that their connection to land, and its relevance to them seemed different to mine. Even though I have always felt an affinity to the bush.

I have a deep respect for this enduring connection to land of Aboriginal people, and would seek clarification from the local community elders if I had any doubts about going to a particular place. That is just the polite, respectful thing to do, and I would probably learn something worthwhile whilst doing that.

Respect of culture, in all its varied forms, is an important part of healing for Aboriginal people, not an enforcement of white culture upon them, which is exactly what has occurred. There is difference but there is also much that is shared. Embrace the differences I say.

This is from a white fella perspective and I don't pretend to speak for any Aboriginal person.

[GPSGuided]

One aspect that I learnt from the Uluru trip was that the local aborigines don't have a habit of saying "no", but would only go as far as "prefer not to" in response to certain locations and activities. Just a social norm for them. As such, it would be very wrong to interpret using our normal references on these statements. As said above, it's a matter of respecting their culture and interpret their statements through their eyes and ears.

[geoskid]

I think the term "traditional owners" could be misleading, even the term Aboriginal or Indigenous is limiting as it doesn't recognise the cultural differences that exist throughout the land.

I spent some time working in an Aboriginal community on the coast of NSW and had the pleasure of going out bush regularly with some of the elders and young men, collecting wood for spear shafts, nulla nullas, boomerangs, and resin from grass trees, among other things. They had an enormous knowledge of the local bush and the history, it was awesome to
be around. I grew up in this particular area but had no knowledge of the rich cultural history that existed.

These men were heavily into maintaining and practicing their culture, through much hardship. They were extremely welcoming to me as a white fella, and on out first outing into the bush when I enquired about their connection to land they were adamant that this was all our land and no-one owns it. We all had a connection and a collective responsibility to look after it.

It was clear to me though that their connection to land, and its relevance to them seemed different to mine. Even though I have always felt an affinity to the bush.

I have a deep respect for this enduring connection to land of Aboriginal people, and would seek clarification from the local community elders if I had any doubts about going to a particular place. That is just the polite, respectful thing to do, and I would probably learn something worthwhile whilst doing that.

Respect of culture, in all its varied forms, is an important part of healing for Aboriginal people, not an enforcement of white culture upon them, which is exactly what has occurred. There is difference but there is also much that is shared. Embrace the differences I say.

This is from a white fella perspective and I don't pretend to speak for any Aboriginal person.

Thank you Simon
I can tell that was honest.

[geoskid]

Here's how the red robin got its red breast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aF7Pbr1ME5c
(You're funny geoskid, most people looking for answers, you seem to like the questions in themselves. I considered your thoughts on the depth of discussion, making headway in such a topic is probably doomed to go not much further than whats already available with a google search)

It's all about questions Nuts.
Or at least that is what I always thought until Nick pointed out once that his institution encouraged questions.
That forced a re-think on my part. That's when I got even more clarity.

Questions drive learning, and it's not the allowing of questioning that is important, it is the intellectual values that are brought to bear on the answering.

Cheers

[corvus]

Here's how the red robin got its red breast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aF7Pbr1ME5c
(You're funny geoskid, most people looking for answers, you seem to like the questions in themselves. I considered your thoughts on the depth of discussion, making headway in such a topic is probably doomed to go not much further than whats already available with a google search)

It's all about questions Nuts.
Or at least that is what I always thought until Nick pointed out once that his institution encouraged questions.
That forced a re-think on my part. That's when I got even more clarity.

Questions drive learning, and it's not the allowing of questioning that is important, it is the intellectual values that are brought to bear on the answering.

Cheers

Hey geoskid I think some of your comments should be in parenthesis as I believe you are quoting from another source and not speaking from inherent knowledge nor do I believe that this your normal mode of speech.
Just saying Mate

[Nuts]

I'm torn geo's. I mean I kinda feel like i'm trying to defend 'sticking to the topic' but don't at all mean to cut off broader thinking. Questions are good too (). It's just that 'traditional' ties are defined already by various states. It stands to reason we are discussing bushwalking in areas already accepted as 'traditional' (in parks and reserves). 'Owners' might only need to be something that Europeans understand, fits the purpose.. we get the idea anyway.. maybe the concept of a suggestion or choice is harder to grasp? I mean without the stories to make choices how do you know what perils may await! If you had all the stories and knew the gravity you'd consider that a 'no' rather than a maybe? anyhow.. 'significant', it follows, has also been proven (or we likely wouldn't know about the 'area'). I hope that doesn't make too many incoherent assumptions? It's late!!


Have a good weekend fellas

[north-north-west]

... while I feel the same about imposing my beliefs on to others I do think that other people's beliefs should still be respected. It's just like taking your shoes off when entering buddhist temples, etc, etc.

I find it difficult to respect beliefs that would limit what I do or where I go simply because I'm female.
I spent too much of my life fighting that from our own culture, it goes against the grain to accept it from any other.

[Turfa]

I find it difficult to respect beliefs that would limit what I do or where I go simply because I'm female.
I spent too much of my life fighting that from our own culture, it goes against the grain to accept it from any other.

That is a point that really makes you think, I mean there are many "traditional" beliefs in western culture that are no longer considered acceptable & are now referred to as sexist ,racist etc. how does this evolution of beliefs apply to Aboriginal culture, considering that there are certainly some aspects of traditional Aboriginal culture that most people would consider no longer acceptable eg. revenge killing & kidnapping..... Now these issues may be fairly clear cut for most people, but what about something like women's rights, where some "traditionalists" might debate the point ?

Last edited by Turfa on Sat 21 Jun, 2014 12:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.