What are your views on bushwalkers using GPS?

[Mark F]

A gps is a great addition to the mandatory map and compass. I use mine to confirm my position at times and at others to know where I am at all. A gps does not replace a map and compass but I seem to find situations where being able to confirm my location has been invaluable. For instance on the ridge between Leaning Tea Tree Saddle and Precipitous Bluff or in head high scrub trying to find the top of a spur. While I am usually able to work out my location using a map and compass, the gps provides a second opinion and occasionally has saved me from a serious geographical malfunction.

I also carry a home made map protractor printed on overhead transparency film which weighs nothing but makes working with a paper map far easier and more accurate.

[colinm]

GPS is a technology, altimeter, compass, maps are also technologies. Track notes, cairns, stories and songs describing a landscape and telling how to traverse it. All technologies.

FatCanyoner, your contention seems to be that some technologies dumb people down more than others and that some technologies are more reliable than others. This is probably true. I suspect, though, that what's really occurring is that gps is enabling less skilled people to go to places they would otherwise never try ... and those people (myself, to some extent, included) are inevitably less skilled at navigation than someone who's been doing it for decades with the most meagre technology. I think you confuse cause and effect.

Your compass always work (unless you store it in a pocket held closed with a rare earth magnet, drop it, expose it to heat.) Your map will always work (except insofar as it's inaccurate.)

I think what works *all* the time is a reverence for nature and healthy fear of being lost, coupled with a mosaic of available technologies. It's about synthesising all the information available and making reasoned decisions on that basis. I've been lost, near sunset, with map and compass and track notes. I expect I will be again.

If I'm hiking somewhere I don't know, somewhere remote, I ask everyone I can find for their memories, I search for every book/article I can find, I read peoples' blogs (including your own,) I study the topos, I plot a course on the topo and transfer it to google earth, at which point I fly over and zoom in, looking for whatever clues I can find. I refine the course. I convert it to gpx, upload it to my gps, print a map overlayed with it, convert it to marks and bounds, and happily walk out with my gps on, at least one spare set of batteries, and my head held high, seldom needing to look at the gps again.

What I object to, more than the dumbing down to which you allude, is the whole secret bushwalker's business business. People kick down cairns (because they disrupt their 'wilderness experience' ... WAH!) and actively resist the exchange of gps data, I think, mainly to preserve their own privileged position with respect to wilderness.

Here's what's inevitable: some day, and it won't be long, people will have affordable nearly 100% signal coverage. Some time not long after that, people will have augmented reality systems which will overlay significant details (e.g. trails) over an image on their iphone-like or even contact-lense displays. That's all going to happen.

So the challenge is, I think, to get as much information out to as wide an audience as possible - navigation courses on the net, how-to documents, anything you can think of, so that the hordes, when they come, will at least know enough to not be dangerous or in danger (I'm thinking of the family of 4 setting out up Kaliana Ridge for the Castle near sunset with no maps, compass, shelter, fire making, wearing light summer clothes and probably thongs.)

[rucksack]

Mark & Colin, there is a lot to agree with. I have undertaken quite a bit of off-track walking and in some remote corners of the world, let alone in Australia. I generally use a Silva Type 54 compass in Australia, which combines a decent sighting capacity with a base plate and enables me to be a little more accurate in my navigational calculations. I also use a Douglas protractor (and have for a very long time) and I find that it is a particularly useful piece of navigational kit - no moving parts and no batteries. I have had a GPS since the late 90s and just integrate the lot, so that I tend to walk with a map & compass, plot with a Douglas protractor and check up on myself (I do a fair amount of solo walking) with my GPS. I don’t leave my GPS turned on when I am walking, so I am not chewing through batteries; I just turn it on when I need to verify my location. Anything that I need to remember, I write on my Douglas protractor, (in pencil, of course), and erase it at the end of the day. I don’t have any trouble integrating these ‘technologies’. For extended walks, I sometimes even add a lightweight mechanical map measurer, which enables me to be a bit more accurate in calculating distances, and therefore likely walking times. Again, I just find these tools to be complimentary and I am open to any technology that helps make navigation easier and more accurate. I do try to manage with as few batteries as possible, not least because they add weight. I tend to rely on my map and compass most of the time, and I am still here, so something seems to be working, touch wood!

rucksack

[Bush Walker]

However, I have been suprised how much "distance" it loses compared with the routes in the guidebooks, when in forest and gullies.

Unless your GPS is more sophisticated than mine, then it is unlikely that it can accurately measure the distance you have walked along a windy track, as it measures between points logged as the crow flys, not around the bends, although you can solve this by logging your location more frequently. Research with footballers wearing GPSs shows that there are large inaccuracies to do with speed and direction changes. Bushwalkers have additional inaccuracies with loss of signal due to trees, overhanging cliffs and movement which is too slow for the GPS to register. It will usually underestimate what the "guide book says" unless your route is along a straight track.

Last edited by Bush Walker on Sun 15 Jan, 2012 7:19 am, edited 3 times in total.

[Ent]

The Garmin 62S stores the tracks with a very fine level of detail, often 10 metres apart. It uses the same process I think as my Garmin 305 edge. Accuracy in distance measured by both are excellent in the more open areas. The 62S is much better in canyons than the Garmin Edge. I have used phone GPS along with IPAQ C/F ones and the Garmin 62S kills them all for accuracy of the plotted track matching the map . It seems to have a very sensitive antenna. I notice that less sensitive GPS "lose" distance.

Basically a brilliant piece of hardware let down by an terrible user interface.

Cheers

[ollster]

The Garmin 62S ...

Basically a brilliant piece of hardware let down by an terrible user interface.

Worth noting it cal also run an external aerial. And yes, the 62S and it's kin are the off track walkers' GPS of choice at the moment for being able to hold signal in thick forest, a situation in which you REALLY don't want to lose satellites.

[johnat]

In my opinion, it is up to each individual to decide whether they want to carry a GPS &/or PLB and to what extent they want to rely on them on a trip.

I carry both plus a map and compass but if I was on a trip with you and you tried to enforce a "no electronic gadgets" condition, you would have one less person in your party.

^^^This is the word!! ^^

[colinm]

Get ready, it's on its way (quicker than I thought) http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/02/2 ... years-end/ ... Give it 10 years and we'll be asking for opinions on people hiking with augmented reality contact lenses.

[wayno]

Given horw uncomfortable so many people can get just being out of cell phone range today fact is not everyone is that confident in the wlderness without something like a GPS, but if having one gives people more confidence to get out into the wilderness then it's a great thing and with time they may also find the confidence to either not switch on the gps or not even take it, whatever gets you through....

[yegdod1]

Given horw uncomfortable so many people can get just being out of cell phone range today fact is not everyone is that confident in the wlderness without something like a GPS, but if having one gives people more confidence to get out into the wilderness then it's a great thing and with time they may also find the confidence to either not switch on the gps or not even take it, whatever gets you through....

Wayno,
i think u are correct in what u say....i use my gps as a backup only, and only to double check my long and latt...i use a map and compass (by themselves) almost all of the time, but as im always a solo hiker, when those moments of doubt creep in it is good (and comforting) to have gps as a back up...im not sure if i would of got to as many places as i have on my own, if i didnt have a gps as a back up saftey net...

[puredingo]

I've got a Garmin Etrex GPS...It's so easy to use a 4 year old child could understand it, now go out and find me a 4 year old child I can't make head nor tail out of it!. That's an old Marx Bros. routine but seriously it is really a complicated thing for me...I would trust my basics before relying on it.

[corvus]

Why not (if you understand them) I don't
corvus

[Rob A]

Youd be surprised how many people tell you all the numbers on the read out are significant, and how they read them all for improved accuracy .
Including those , two hundred odd metres off to that side of the track. Lifes a circus.

They are pretty cruisy on the back country ridges though. Especially when significant features are on the next topo over, or trees obscure some of a distant properties outbuildings.

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Other things dont go on forever neither. Aeroplanes just arent happy places .

[Explorer_Sam]

We never used to carry a GPS but after the Pyrenees Endurance Walk in the Pyrenees Ranges we decided to purchase one. Firstly, because we got lost on this particular walk more than once on more than one occasion and secondly, because we crossed a few dirt tracks and crossroads and when we looked to our map to find out where we were, we discovered that the tracks were unmarked. We knew it was time to invest in a GPS device and at the time the Garmin eTrex 10 was on special at Boating, Camping & Fishing (BCF), for $115 so we bought it.

At first I was worried that carrying a GPS on our walks would take away the feeling of adventure but I was wrong. The Garmin eTrex 10 is a very basic GPS device and we only use it when we need to. The maps aren't very detailed, it just allows you to load on routes and mark waypoints then gives you an arrow to follow. The simplicity of the device assures that the adventurous feeling remains with you on your walks even while carrying a GPS.

It's also a very fun little device to have, with lots of fun features to fiddle with. There's the trip computer which tells you your elevation, has a trip odometer, tells you your speed in km/h, your max speed in km/h, your average moving speed in km/h, how long you've been moving for (moving time), your stopped time and your overall average. Another cool feature is hunt & fish, which tells you when the best times of day to go hunting and fishing are on that particular day. Other cool features include profiles, area calculation, calendar, calculator, stopwatch, sun and moon and Geocaching.

Explorer_Sam.

[dplanet]

A part from useful navigation feature, it also helped me reunite with my fit-over glasses which had been left behind at a lunch spot on a weekend walk in Strathbogie Ranges, nne Victoria, Australia and it was lucky that the location had been marked as one of the waypoints on the walk that is about half way off track.

For the return walk (revisit on a day) to look for the glasses, it was all off track. The start was from the road near a campground and the climb northwest was up to two back country ridges. From memory, It was on the climb up a scrubby gully at which I suddently noticed a brown snake in front. It was about less than one meter away, so close that it could easily strike me. Lucky for me, it stayed still and to move away from it quickly is my reaction.

After bashing through scrub to reach the desired point on the map, checking the coordinate and the distance to the waypoint, a compass was used. It was not easy to recall how the place looked like and bit of time was spent on checking and I was rather disappointed and was about to give up. But, then, I heard a ring tone from the gps and so my location was immediately marked with a visible handkerchief then started looking around with the belief that the glasses should be very close (within two or three metres?). I was correct. Within a few minutes, they were in sight.

Attachments

Return for glasses walk

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[Explorer_Sam]

Please read my review on the Garmin eTrex 10 GPS and feel free to leave a comment.

Here is the link: http://samchristiesoutdoors.blog.com/2012/03/16/18/

[jonnosan]

I have read this thread just now with interest, wondering how reckless I am with my hiking approach. I have only really started bushwalking 8 months ago, and initially i was just into geocaching, but being in the blue mountains, I went from urban caches to bush caches and started to get a taste for big walks. Since this started as an extension of geocaching, it was natural to me to a) go solo, and b) use smartphone/iPad to navigate. Just to be clear, I use an application on one of these devices that will show me a topo map, with my current location on it.

Since I started walking I have done several half/full day walks on and off established tracks, plus a 2 night hike along 6ft track, and a very very long day doing the K2K.I typically bring 3 devices (i work in IT ) all loaded with offline maps (to cover running out of battery, breaking screen etc). In addition I bring a SPOT tracker for use in emergencies. When I first started I used to bring paper map and compass as well as my gadgets but the fact is, I don't really know how to navigate that way and expect I never will.

So I am sure I represent the trend that concerned fatcanyoner at the start of this thread.

But I am not yet convinced that is a bad thing. I recognize there are risks in my approach, but actually I think the risks arise more from my choice to hike solo rather than from my method of navigating. But happy to hear any contrary opinions?

[Ent]

Hi

Like any tool people will use it and push the envelope. On the weekend three of us extended our walk to an unfamiliar destination knowing that we would most likely be back at camp after dark. Headlamps and gps plus smart phone went along.

Now it could be argued that we got back more by headlamp than gps but once or twice the gps were used to confirm that we were not that far off the track due to numerous fallen trees.

I personally would not have headed off pre gps days but as mentioned most likely could of got back to camp by headlamp alone.

As long as you have a map in some form and backup I am happy with paper or electronic but as Tasmanian Police made it clear on a rescue in the same area a smart phone is not a gps. By that without excellent weather protection and means of extra battery capacity you are asking for trouble.

Cheers

[sthughes]

I always find this an interesting topic. Obviously relying on a GPS with no backup is silly, but with tripple redundancy GPS devices plus a Spot is it really an issue? Of course the Yanks could flick the off switch, then you'd be screwed!

I wen't down the iPad path for a while, but with a waterproof case you're looking at the best part of 1kg! But they are absolutley brilliant for navigating when you have the right app and maps loaded. I've scaled back to an iPhone, map, compass (and a proper GPS if no one else has one).

[north-north-west]

Nothing beats map, compass and the ability to use them. GPS is useful but relying purely on electronics out bush is just plain dumb.

[sthughes]

Okay I'll play the Devils Advocate here...

Nothing beats map, compass and the ability to use them. GPS is useful but relying purely on electronics out bush is just plain dumb.

Why? We rely on them so much in so many other facets of life now, why not out bush? Pretty much all modern forms of transport (planes, trains, cars, ships etc) and communications, not to mention health care and the entire global economy all rely heavily on electronics. What makes bushwalking so special? I mean even if you have proper redundancy?

[north-north-west]

Well, just off the top of my head:
batteries can die unexpectedly, electronics are not compatible with water and no waterproofing system is 100% reliable, the Yanks could turn off the GPS satellites, they're more subhect to damage from mishandling, you're a long way from base if you need technical assistance . . .

Is that enough for now?

[Ent]

Hi

Good point on the role of modern electronic devices. Push a break pedal on modern cars and our electronic friends are there. Of course some will contend that they can do better, and yes I was one but learnt on the race track I am not as great as those little chips.

The question on commonsense is having plan B and C. Amazing how little you in the field you use any navigation aid, relying instead on track following and dead reckoning. But when the wheels fall off great to have them around.

Now if I was to conduct an honest test I wonder how many people can actually use them well? To be honest I still stuff up and battle with mine at times. The curse is using one map with one datum reference grid and crossing over to another using a different grid.

I tend the think the critics of GPS are people struggling to master them. But no hardship to take old faithfully backups and do not forget commonsense. Probably the curse for Search and Rescue will be people using online maps that disappear when coverage go. This will sadly just be another example of Darwin's theory.

Cheers

[taswegian]

I'm with NNW on this.
I recently bought a smartphone - HTC Velocity.
On a recent trip to East Coast Tas I played with it to see what it would do. The GPS said I was about 150 metres off in one place but for most of time it was within 'not getting lost' distance.
But it soon went flat, had some dead spots (terrain) and worse on bright sunny day was hopeless to see the screen.

A dedicated recreational GPS would be my choice any day for serious navigation and battery life would be extended too, but then on a long trip obvioulsy need charging/ spares.

Then there are the times when these handhelds just don't cut it for accuracy and throw up ridiculous measurements.

Its one thing to argue we live in an electronic age but generally if something fails then its not life threatening.
You call a taxi if car won't start, trip down to Harvey Norman and get a new whatever........ and so on..
To argue that for a GPS could well be similar, but the whole point of these devices are (I imagine) to help not getting lost and more so hopelessly lost.

I still stand by my original post way back that I consider it folly, and to faithfully trust these things with your life is taking risks to extremes.
Also Epirbs etc are not 'backups', by then its 'too late time' and rescue is inevitable type stuff.
A simple piece of paper (map), laminated and folded or flat packed in pack PLUS a compass and whistle should be part of all bushwalkers standard fare.

How many rescues have we seen lately that were true blue rescues? Unfortunately we have had some for very genuine and unpleasant reasons but there are those that perhaps fit into the shouldn't have happened group.

Obviously map reading is important (vital) but then so is GPS reading.
Those screens cover such a small area and to see the 'big picture' is far easier with a paper map. (now a tablet is different, but who would take one of those, yet alone keep a bettery backup?)

Others argue (rightly) these modern electronic conveniences are part of life.
I rely completely on battery power in my work these days. Flat batteries and its head for home. But its inconvenient, not life threatening.
Flat ones, broken screen etc on a GPS and how does one 'head for home' then?

Try and explain that to the anxious or grieving ones back home while the search and rescue bods do their excellent stuff, and they wait, and wait and..

[Ent]

It is amazing that when in a modern aircraft your navigation, separation control, and in the latest aircraft instrumentation, is all done by electronics. An Airbus 380 without power is an aviation disaster. Better not fly or catch Tiger Moth air Airbags are computer controlled as are seat belt tensioners and the statistics have deaths and serious injuries decreasing. In fact if 1960 accident injuries were applied to the number of vehicles on the road today accident emergency would cease to function. There is a thing called a traffic light and it is electronic as well. So since almost the beginning of the car we have relied on electronic gadgets for our lives.

My Garmin 62S gets over twenty hours out of a set up batteries running continuously. It has AA so does my headlamp. No hassles taking spares and I use it as a data logger. As a occasional check location device its life in the field would be massive. Ok point taken that screen size means reading maps is a challenge and much prefer paper maps but one thing that never gets much comment on this site is good map cases. Most are too small requiring frequently folding of maps or do not match the map size. Also most are very heavy.

I now take my iPhone as communication and entertainment with a view as a backup GPS. In a real life first hand experience on a remote walk a walker in another party was incapacitated by a simplest of slips. It could have happened to anyone and was not dramatic, or error of judgement, or lack of experience, or...... What role did modern technology play. After getting him stabilized and to a place where a rescue could take place the iPhone placed the call, it was made clear that the injury was not immediately life threatening but evacuation was required, the Garmin gave the GPS location and the wheels went into action. A text message was sent back confirming ETA of helicopter and junior was safely in proper medical care a short time later. The alternative would have been a two to three day walk out and then back and the out again. It was wonderful that the helicopter could make a bee line straight to the ridge line. Tasmanian Police rescue are a class act and it was wonderful not to inconvenience them more that necessary.

Sorry but first hand experience and I am won over. And yes I hate them when they do not work or go wrong but not taking them is putting prejudice before safety. And of course the age old backups still make sense.

Cheers

[taswegian]

Ent i am not saying they are not to be used, nor scorned.
I am merely saying there are other options that if and when these devices fail there is a fallback option.
I make my living using a real GPS and I know how good they can be and how despicably fickle they can be.
'Sorry but first hand experience and I am won over. And yes I hate them when they do not work or go wrong but not taking them is putting prejudice before safety'
Prejudice? Safety? Not sure I understand that rationale.
What do you do when 'they go wrong'? That's my whole point.

As for maps - they are so easy to create at home with a computer, and printer, these days and can be laminated so easily and take up NO room and don't have to be folded.
Not sure what one would need a map case for?
There was a topic somewhere on maps and folding etc.

[photohiker]

People have been getting lost for a lot longer than GPS has been around.

Maps and compasses are technology too, and they can also go wrong. (have been ever since they were invented) Ever lost your bearings? Ever been trying to read a compass near a large Iron ore deposit? Spilled fanta on your map?

Nothing beats local knowledge. If you don't have that, I'll take redundancy any day. There is little weight in a 3 tier system: Map + Compass; Dedicated GPS; Backup Smartphone.

[oyster_07]

Many people generally consider a GPS to be a safety device. This is not the case. Instead of pushing risk further away, an otherwise unable person feels the additional tool of the GPS makes them safer and goes unprepared into a potentially dangerous situation. The GPS brings unprepared people closer to danger rather than pushing danger further away.

A GPS may tell you where you are, but that is useless unless you know where that is relative to everything else.

It is true that maps and compasses are also tools, but to follow that analogy, a bobcat operator probably knows how to use a shovel, but a simply shovelman will likely create more danger should he attempt to use a bobcat. In order to use a tool, one must have a certain qualification, and that qualification ought contain an awareness of the principals if the task as well as the tool's operation.

[Ent]

Hi Taswegian

I think that we might actually be of similar thought but looking that the thread differently. Do not get me wrong I nearly always (unless not stocked) take maps and a compass. My pet bug bear is getting waterproof map cases that work well with Tasmap's sizing. Not every home has a A3 or better printer and laminator. Also producing you own is another software program to learn. Yes for the geeks of the world no hassle but not everyone can belt home whip up a map, print it out and then put it through a laminator. Shivers talk about electronic gadgetry

But not getting a printed map is compromising a great reliable fall back option and many people still buy the printed Tasmap ones or use the ones in books like Chapmans. And yes the only time on a serious trip that I did not take a printed map of an area we failed to find the destination. Actually before your post I was working on Garmin Basemap to figure out what we did, as this weekend we made it to Reynold Falls Plan B campsite was actually further than Plan A campsite But without a map with the track marked this is a moot point on the first attempt. But at least with a GPS we knew where we were so found the PCT and wandered home the next day much to the annoyance of the numerous leeches that wanted us to stay longer.

Writing real world lets look at this example of a navigation stuff up. The maps of that area are terrible. You can be standing on road an it is not marked on the map! Now let me tell you nothing like that mucks up your sense of place than that. Lets look at Tasmaps for the area. The 1:25,000 maps have many of the old roads but not the Penguin to Cradle Trail (PCT) nor the track to Reynold Falls. The 1:100,000 Cradle Nation Park map has the PCT but not the Reynolds Fall Track plus most old roads are missing. And the 1:100,000 Sophia has both PCT and Reynold Falls track plus a few old roads! Also I am told that track has shifted as well. Ok, map confusion reigns but lets say you fluked the Sophia map rather than its relatives. Even with a GPS finding your position on a 1:100,000 map has a wide range of error. Now with compass this range of error even gets larger. Ok lets virtually walk the track. Um once off the old roads you hit forests and while you come out of them you are back into dense forest with no clear views to triangulate position. What is plan B? Estimate position by contour lines? Given Tasmaps efforts you are braver than me. Lucky in the real word the track is extremely clearly marked so if you miss a marker and not red green colour deficient (as I am so red markers in dapple light are near invisible to me) you can spot the predominately red markers. I tend when walking to use my Sunnto altimeter watch as a guide. Err? and yes this helps your argument out, it is a piece of junk in the rain as the sensor gives readings that are erratic. In the dry it is remarkably good.

What did we do on the revisit? Pmed a person that had done the trip and got a few potential waypoints of campsites. Very handy given the terrain knowing where you have good camping options. Our mapping wizard then migrated the 1:100,000 Reynold Falls track on the onto the 1:25,000 map and printed it out and laminated it. I printed out a copy and put it in my map case not having a laminator just on hand. He had the Apple iPhone with Tasmap and I had the Garmin with Topo maps. So off we went and found the Falls with very little trouble. Even navigated back from them at night time by headlamp and GPS to our campsite.

Safety is not an absolute in my mind but a series of fall back levels. A GPS, PLB and mobile phone all add to the safety aspect and ideally great if within a group such things can be found as individually there becomes a point where you can not carry all the "safety" gear that appears on various people's list.

I am reading this thread that electronic gadgets are bad, the work of the devil. I disagree, they are a great tool and to ignore them is removing a level of safety. To refuse to take them is in my opinion prejudice and yes they will not always work. Lets step back to the real world rescue. The injured walker's group had mobile phones and even a satellite phone None of their phones worked Now this shattered my faith in the satellite phone option. But as fate would have it our group had a working iPhone, Spot and PLB with a solo walker that happened along had a PLB.

Electronic devices will not save the terminally stupid but neither will printed maps. I gave an overseas visitor that had done the mandatory year military service of their country a compass and map of the area that they were heading. I was then asked what was the compass for It is my honest belief that the occasional sign, following the board walk, fellow walkers, and dumb luck gets a lot of people home.

All I say do not condemn electronic gadgets and maps can be as confusing. It is fascinating reading the rescues this year in the Reynolds Falls area. And yes even the police went as far as to warn people that a mobile phone is not a replacement for a map and gps with the implied that understanding how to use both is needed as well.

Cheers

[corvus]

Has anyone checked out their digital (aka GPS or smart phone) compass next to a strong magnetic field ? my Watch digital compass did not like "kissing " a strong magnet totally confused it
corvus