Bushwalk Australia

The topic Hunting in some NSW National Parks "http://bushwalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=10020" has got me wondering what it is like to have recreational hunters in a national park. From what I understand it is allowed in some Victorian and South Australian parks (correct me if I am wrong). How is it managed? has it caused you problems with access? Have you noticed the level of feral animals increase/decrease?

You will not even know they are there.

There is a lot of overreaction to this proposal. For starters, there will only be 70 Parks open to hunting, of which only a small portion of the Park will be declared a hunting area. State Forests, which see greater numbers of people each year, have been declared hunting zones for the last decade. Hunting has been very successful in the forests and no incidents at all have occurred.

The same hysteria was put forth when the proposal to open the forests for hunting a decade ago. Green groups and the media engaged in a massive fear campaign which turned out to be rubbish - just like this campaign will .

Hunting is regulated through State government bodies. In NSW it is the Game Council and in Vic it is the DSE. It is highly regulated and all hunters must be trained and accredited. As far as I know, hunting has never caused any access issues for bush walkers. There is not much evidence to show if feral pest numbers have changed.

I hope this answers your questions.

I am after a fresh perspective from those who have used these parks. I was concerned before I read anything from any group or editorial comment from the media.

Mm this brings back memories of BOOM BOOM BOOM in thick foggy cloud up on top of Mt McDonald with rain pouring down.
No one to see you no one to be seen and definitely no DSE ever to patrol these hunting activities (big ted has put a stop to that in Victoria - my political comment only).
Hopefully everyone does the right thing and no problems are encountered.
I hope.
Marty.

I have met hunters complete with guns and dogs who claimed to be "lost" well inside Vic National Parks. When you are wandering along the trail solo and run into a bunch of blokes with guns you tend to feel it is right to be real polite.

There are often hunting dogs running around the Mt Bogong and High Plains area.

I have met a bloke who claimed to visit an area on the East side of Mt Howitt in the Vic Nat Park every Winter on his horse and part of his gig was to take paying customers in for a bit of Winter hut.

I am not aware of open hunting in SA's Parks. The Parkies do allow the hunters in on a very strictly controlled basis as part of the larger long running feral goat program. The Parks are closed for 1 or 2 days only, forward notices and a bunch of procedures. It is a major exercise as opposed to nipping out for a bit of a shoot.

I had a surreal experience a few years ago whilst doing a nightime fauna survey in the Richmond Range National Park out near Casino.

We had been setting a large number of elliot traps along transects in the rainforest and a few harp traps along some creeks to catch bats and were walking along the gravel road about 10pm spotlighting for gliders etc when we could hear revving engines approaching and the pop of gunfire. As the vehicles got closer we could hear yahooing and intense shooting which had us all a bit nervous to say the least. It was quite unreal to be doing a scientific survey of native animals and having people blasting the crap out of them nearby (we found out from the same guys who drove through the next day that they had been shooting kangaroos & they happily bragged about how they either finished off any joeys they found with a knife or sicked their dogs onto them for a joke...). I should add that I think they were shooting in farmland that adjoins the park.

A highlight of that trip was the spotting of a couple of Greater Gliders up high in the eucalypts.

If you were blindfolded and taken away from the coast and then told to figure out where you were I find the number of bullet holes in road signs is directly proportional to the distance inland that you have travelled.

Walkers and hunters seem to co-exist ok in New Zealand. I've often come across walkers slinging rifles over their shoulders in the back country and not bothered by it. In just about every hike on the easterm sea board you hear the odd rifle crack going off but again am not bothered by it knowing full well that they are targeting feral animals. Of course there has the isolated death of trampers being mistaken for deer in NZ. Wouldn't like to hear of that in OZ. But there is risk involved in everything we do outdoors. Fairly sure I'm more likely to be injured or killed by snake bite, falling down a ravine, etc... than hunters. My two cents.

And the countless stories of hunters offering the passing tramper fresh venison on their 6th day into a walk.

I would like to meet those hunters who offer fresh venison after a 6 day hike.
I am sure accidents may happen if enough walkers and hunters are in the same area, but as Gippsmick said it is likely most hunters are just very normal average responsible people who like to hunt some of our feral animals.
Time will tell and if it does happen to go bad then the govmt/authorities will step in and sort things out (I hope).

Gippsmick wrote: Fairly sure I'm more likely to be injured or killed by snake bite, falling down a ravine, etc... than hunters

No doubt, not to mention getting there by car in the first place...

ninjapuppet wrote:And the countless stories of hunters offering the passing tramper fresh venison on their 6th day into a walk.

Never heard those stories, are they the same kindly folk offering foot rubs & massages for weary walkers? Maybe I've just been unlucky and mostly experienced rednecks?

Wonongatta-Moroka great deer hunting area, an I have never personally had a problem in either direction.
back side of Mt Beauty is recognised as good deer hunting and still part of the National Park, I personally I think the ban on bunny, cat and fox culling in national parks is institutional stupidity.
I'm old, I remember when we used to carry a rifle to supplement the pot

I've met hunters up Wonongatta-Moroka, both near MacFarlane's and out towards Howitt. Plenty of them up the Dargo, Barries and Howqua areas as well. Never been a problem.

BUT. Those areas don't get too many walkers during the deer shooting season. I'd hate to think what might happen if they were allowed in KNP or the Blue Mountains/Wollemi/Kanangra.

Also: Sure, it's supposedly only a small portion from each of only 70 Parks, but have you ever heard the phrase "Thin end of the wedge'? If it's allowed at all, the shooter's associations will keep pushing and pushing until it's open slather.

Well that would only be returning things to the way they were, and i would applaud that. As I have said many times I miss being allowed to hunt bunnies while bushwalking

my question is : this action of the government means there will be many more guns circulating in the community contributing to a growing gun culture - so what happens to these guns in peoples' homes - who gets to use them and handle them and the ammunition and try them out? Presumably they don't stay locked away all the time - they will be out and cleaned and lying around the house at times as well as in vehicles. People generally like to show off their gun collection in various ways - especially like trying it out on targets.
Must be a great market in secondhand guns to which this adds significantly. This at a time when there is so much concern about shootings in the community. It only takes a few of these thousands of extra guns to fall into the wrong hands and bingo!
Of course, Mr O'Farrell is only doing this because he needs those precious votes to sell off something more ----- all this discussion about guns and national parks is besides the point.

banksia wrote:my question is : this action of the government means there will be many more guns circulating in the community contributing to a growing gun culture - so what happens to these guns in peoples' homes - who gets to use them and handle them and the ammunition and try them out? Presumably they don't stay locked away all the time - they will be out and cleaned and lying around the house at times as well as in vehicles. People generally like to show off their gun collection in various ways - especially like trying it out on targets.
Must be a great market in secondhand guns to which this adds significantly. This at a time when there is so much concern about shootings in the community. It only takes a few of these thousands of extra guns to fall into the wrong hands and bingo!
Snip.

I think that is a pretty wild and unsubstantiated assumption. The original question in this thread is seeking actual real life experiences to help form opinions on the issue based on reality. I like that approach and would like to stick with it.

Regards,
Ken

banksia wrote:my question is : this action of the government means there will be many more guns circulating in the community contributing to a growing gun culture - so what happens to these guns in peoples' homes - who gets to use them and handle them and the ammunition and try them out? Presumably they don't stay locked away all the time - they will be out and cleaned and lying around the house at times as well as in vehicles. People generally like to show off their gun collection in various ways - especially like trying it out on targets.

Yeh mate, I show off my guns all the time. Leave them laying around in the house and all my friends try them in the back yard just for fun.

What a load of %$#. That's just pure anti gun ^%$#

Registered firearms holders do the right thing. It's a completely legal interest.
It's illegal to do "all" of the things you have mentioned and has nothing to do with this thread at all.

I should point out that for our major deer species (SAMBAR) there is no season, we hunt all year around.

I was lucky enough once to be offered fresh venison fillet steak for breakfast , it just happened to be day one of an extended walk so wasn't the delight that fresh meat on day 6 would have been but it happens. It was by the way delicious as was the fresh liver and the crisp bacon that went with it.

I'm a sambar deer hunter and have been for 40 years. Before the Victorian Alpine National Park was created much of the now-Park was traditional sambar deer hunting country and it had been for so many years. Deer hunting organizations put a good sensible case the the Land Conservation Council to retain deer hunting in some sections of the proposed ANP and seasonal stalking of sambar deer was approved and legislated in a significant portion of the Park. So for 20+ years sambar deer hunting has been just one of the approved activities within the ANP although unfortunately we seem to get precious little media about this which can on occasions cause some issues when non-hunting Park users encounter what they think is someone illegally carrying a firearm in the Park.

There are parts of some units of the ANP where hunting is not permitted and in all permitted areas it is only allowed on a "seasonal basis" from February 15th - December 15th inclusive and in reality most hunters do not begin serious sambar hunting until the weather cools from around May onwards. So generally sambar hunters are in the Park when other visitor numbers are low or in many of the more remote areas often non-existant. Sambar hunters tend to hunt in the more remote locations usually hunt deep in the bush away from walking tracks and populous places as this is where the secretive sambar prefer. Deer hunting is only permitted during daylight hours so any encounters with "hunters" at night spotlighting deer or shooting at other animals are not to be associated with legal deer hunting. We are permitted to take only sambar deer in daylight....nothing else. We are not permitted to use a dog to assist us to hunt sambar deer as all dogs are of course prohibited (and rightly so) in the ANP.

Personally I've ecountered only a few groups of walkers and individual walkers while I've been hunting in the ANP especially in the autumn but it's always interesting to sit and have a chat about things....and for me about the sambar of course. Often there's been some initial caution about a camo-clad bloke with a rifle and that's understandable but once the ice is broken I usually get to hear about any encounters with the deer that they may have had over the years....they seem to be pretty impressed by seeing a big animal like that in the bush and most weren't even aware that there may have been a hunter or two sharing the bush with them on their jaunts. A real sambar hunter fires few shots at sambar deer in a year.....often only 2 or 3....sometimes none at all. The attraction for us isn't in the shooting....but the hunting of an elusive and intelligent animal....and doing it in a challenging and ruggedly attractive envoironment like the ANP.

I can understand the reclutance of some to acknowledge sambar deer hunting as an acceptable recreation in the ANP....and many of these unfortunately are well-entrenched in the Park system but I guess the bottom line is that in many areas of the Alpine National Park deer hunting at the right time of the year and using the appropriate methods is an approved albeit little publicised recreational activity. Like the sambar deer we as deer hunters are just part of the eco-system and for the most part you won't know that either of us are there....unless you get blasted by a close range alrarm "honk" from one of the sambar....or hear a muted "boom" way off in the distance from me ! Cheers

sambar358

Well put Sambar358, better than my reply and I should have noted the seasonal restrictions in those parts, my bad.

We arrived at the howitt cark park last week to spend the night before tackling the viking circuit. On arrival we found a few blokes camping, so we went and said hello and got an early night sleep getting ready for a big days hiking on sat. Now I know we all have different standards in life and some people are considerate and some are, well, not. But when these guys started playing loud music and doing burnouts and firing their guns I was pretty annoyed. To me this was indicative of the type of people who are attracted to hunting.Here we were miles from anywhere, away from work and all the pressures of life only to be confronted with this scenario.
Suffice to say we packed up and found another camp site. I am sure these guys won't read this article because it is not sponsored by "jack Daniels" and has nothing to do with guns. However if they do read it or any other red neck does, can you please just try and understand that bush walkers go to the bush for a bit of peace and quiet.
For the record I have nothing against hunting.

Capelsound : "To me this was indicative of the type of people who are attracted to hunting.Here we were miles from anywhere, away from work and all the pressures of life only to be confronted with this scenario." Unfortunately these days we have the minority "idot element" out there spoiling it for many of us regarless of what it is. The majority of real hunters would relate to your experience and feel similarly annoyed as it is these types that tend to tar us all with the same brush. People (men & growing numbers of women) from all walks of life are attracted to sambar deer hunting for the remote experience, the challenge of hunting and the beauty of the country that we hunt in. Personally I am a primary school teacher and a number of my hunting mates are skilled professionals...a dentist, a microbiologist and a veterninary surgeon to name but a few...so as a group we are diverse and by definition of course there'll be some inconsiderate idiots among us. Unfortunately these are the types that people seem to come across on occasions while the real hunters are off somewhere quietly camping, hunting and just blending-in without disturbing anyone.

Obvioulsy idiots behaving badly need to be bought to account in an effort to curtail their anti-social behaviour and I'd suggest that anyone encountering these sorts of clowns discretely take note of a few rego numbers and on the way home report the incident to the local PV ranger, the Police or ring the DSE/PV information hotline and lodge a complaint. These sorts of incidents are followed up by the authorities and are treated very seriously. At the moment there are over 25,000 licenced deer hunters in Victoria and quite a few of these will be out hunting sambar every weekend in our NP's....unfortunately the few who can't seem to follow the rules appear intent on destroying what the rest of us hold in a very high regard. Cheers

sambar358

Sambar, ok I was probably generalising a little and I do appreciate that the few can ruin it for the many. Seems to me that the two pursuits are diametrically different and for the time being we will have to co exist.

I've only ever encountered hunters once, near the Bluff. They were cutting up some beast that I could not identify atop the bonnet of their 4WD. They were pretty nice guys (they offered me some sausages in bread) but as rough as they come. I can't say that I really support hunting, it doesn't seem the most cerebral of pursuits but at the same time I've got little against the killing to feral animals. Equally, though, deer do have that "cute" factor that makes their slaughter a little repugnant. It all makes for a difficult piece of ground to stand on.

Personally I blame Walt Disney for that "Cute" perception.
Kittens puppies and baby humans are CUTE
Deer like kangaroos, possums and rats are wild animals

Personally, I think that hunting animals for meat is more natural and better for the environment than farming them. No, I don't have any data to back that up whatsoever. It's just my gut feeling (and my gut feels good after the two-bunny stew I had last night). Furthermore, I don't think it scales well for large human populations, but since most people don't want to hunt in this 'enlightened' age that's not been a problem so far.

Of course firearms are not natural, but they do make for better hunting (for me at least). I'd like to take up bow-hunting, but that appears to be even less socially acceptable to the arm chair critics these days.

As a hunter, I'm not in favour of open hunting in national parks, but I can see the perspective of other hunters who've been hunting in some areas since before they became national parks.

forest, come and hang out in NW tassie for a while and I think you will find it's not all b#llsh#t. Man, there are some serious bogans around. I actually have worked with people who quite proudly will tell you about shooting quolls on sight and I even know a local from Wilmot that reckons Tasmanian Devils are over populated and should be shot on sight as well (as he does in Upper Castra). All the signs get shot up around the place, they shoot wombats, possums, really anything that moves. For those that know the area, The Vale of Belvoir was hit by poachers a few weeks back. The Vale is now owned by the Tasmanian Conservation Trust. About 80 carcasses were found left out there mainly Bennets Wallabies and Wombats.

So with the NP issue, do we really want recreational hunting in the parks? Aren't NP's supposed to be about conservation more than recreation?
The conservation argument does not make sense. One proffesional hunter in a chopper would probably be more effective than a years worth of Recreational hunters.

Of course lot's of hunters are passionate enviromentalists. Unfortunately there is no vetting procedure and I'm sure at least some of the aformentioned bogans would find there way in eventually. It's really, really sad that the NSW government is going down this path.

Joel wrote:forest, come and hang out in NW tassie for a while and I think you will find it's not all b#llsh#t

I might pass by the sound of that LOL.

As with all interests there are some real noobs out there.
There are plenty of walkers that do the wrong thing big time too but I guess they aren't holding a gun eh so that's a bit different. While that's bad the damage is generally to the enviroment.

Sadly with the type you have mentioned they will not respect NP boundaries or anything.

I know they are out there but I think this thread is more about "Recreational Hunting"
Not the bogan poachers.

Joel wrote:One proffesional hunter in a chopper would probably be more effective than a years worth of Recreational hunters.

Yep, that's my point too and I agree

sambar358 wrote: A real sambar hunter fires few shots at sambar deer in a year.....often only 2 or 3....sometimes none at all. The attraction for us isn't in the shooting....but the hunting of an elusive and intelligent animal....and doing it in a challenging and ruggedly attractive envoironment like the ANP.

Well, there goes the feral animal mitigation claim. Which, as any rational well-informed person already knew, had as much reality as the fire mitigation claim for cattle grazing in the ANP.

Moondog55 wrote:Personally I blame Walt Disney for that "Cute" perception.
Kittens puppies and baby humans are CUTE
Deer like kangaroos, possums and rats are wild animals

Yeah I realised how that sounded as I wrote it. I spent a fair portion of my upbringing on a farm and killed many animals (almost entirely out of necessity), so I'm not squeamish. I'm not a vegetarian either but I think I agree in large part with Leonardo Da Vinci's words about making our bodies the tombs of other animals. Perhaps it's about the sanctity of life. I don't know. Either way, I'm not doing it and I'd rather it didn't involve our native creatures.

Kinsayder wrote:I'd rather it didn't involve our native creatures.

The wallaby scotch fillet medallions I cooked last night make me grateful for being able to involve our native creatures. But not from national parks, of course, so I guess I'm off-topic.