Moronic parks people

[roysta]

I must say that parks people leave me astounded.
In NSW they ban parks activity from Friday through to Monday, yet on Sunday the maximum temperature in Sydney is 27 degrees and on Monday 25.
This is total overkill.
These people are living in lala land.

Last edited by roysta on Sat 12 Jan, 2013 8:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

[taswegian]

Roysta I have no idea why or what are the reasons. BUT we live in a different world nowadays.
One where any so called inaction is deemed a crime by some and an action is deemed a crime of 'overreacting' by others.

Unfortunately I dare say we will see more of this as heatwaves, fires, storms and floods etc pass and repass the Aussie landscape.

A classic example is the recent high profile case of seismologists being sent to jail for failing to do their job adequately.

Who would want to be in the place of decision as to what, how and when to do or not to do?
Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

[Hallu]

It's not only about temperature but also about moisture in the air (or the absence of it in that case), the UV index, and the duration of the heat wave. But instead you choose to call everyone a moron and *&%$#! about the closure that may save your life...

[Maelgwn]

In SA parks are closed according to fire bans. I imagine it is the same in NSW? The CFS here makes a considered decision based on fuel loads, weather etc and the decision to implement a fire ban would not be taken lightly as there is a significant economic and recreational impact.

[highercountry]

Definition of a moron in LaLa land? A bushwalker trying to outrun a wildfire on foot.

[taswegian]

I was a bit taken by the post and was trying to be a bit considerate, but in light of what some have endured down here and now the Mainland one wonders why one would want to ignore warnings.
Maybe Roystra (and anyone same ilk) could benefit from watching a few movies.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-01-10/aerial-photography-reveals-extent-of-tasmanian/4459714

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/amazing-tale-of-survival-from-tasmanias-bushfires/story-e6frg6n6-1226550726787

there's plenty more if that doesn't convince.

Warnings are there for the benefit of others.

ablaze.jpg (91 KiB) Viewed 16720 times

A bushwalker trying to outrun a wildfire on foot - Mm, not something worth contemplating.

[wayno]

any farmer or forester will tell you how much rain it will take to reverse drought and fire risk when the vegetation is dry....its not something that just disappears because the temperature drops into the twenties
nz is a lot cooler than oz and we have our own fire risks in parts of the country over summer and into autumn.

[davidm]

it is pretty frustrating! I'd been looking forward to this weekend for ages, and unless I can convince the missus to go walking even though the RNP is closed, I'm gonna be sitting at home instead

[WarrenH]

I used to be a NSW Rural Fire Fighter with the Wallaroo Brigade in the Yass Shire ... rural suburbia in long grass country beside the Murrumbidgee, is Wallaroos Brigade area.

Some of the ways that fire started were so unexpected caused by the hapless instigators. A chassis of a vehicle hitting a rock, causing a spark. The catalytic converter of a vehicle driven over grass can be hot enough to set fire to the grass, and nearly torched a vineyard. A bloke mowing his front lawn to reduce the fire hazard caused a spark when the mower blades hit a rock, this happening is not uncommon.

Two people have set fire to NSW National Parks in the past fortnight, when there hasn't been a declared fire ban.

If the worse scenario ever happened, in a park that was closed, how could someone ever explain it and if it is a declared state of emergency ... the penalties are doubled. That could result in many years being spent in gaol.

I was riding with a friend on the ACT/NSW Border Track to the North of Canberra at Mulligans Flat late last summer, it was dusk, and my friend Dave had a couple of pedal strikes on rock, I did two ... the sparks were evident at times on the quarts. In this heat I'm riding my MTB on cycle paths.

Wait a few days, what could you loose? ... but only a few days.

Warren.

[corvus]

I must say that parks people leave me astounded.
In NSW they ban parks activity from Friday through to Monday, yet on Sunday the maximum temperature in Sydney is 27 degrees and on Monday 25.
This is total overkill.
These people are living in lala land.
Well, I don't care, I'm walking on Sunday, Monday and Tuesday.

Ask yourself, really why are they closed ?? certainly not just to *&^%$#! you off I am sure and I just hope you never need the assistance of parks people to extricate you from the ordure you may land yourself in the future.
corvus

[jungle jim]

When the parks are closed just do something else.
Bushwalking is great but there's a right time and place for everything.

[Picaro]

I'm in favour of reducing laws and nanny state-ism.
All these rescues and safety measures are interfering with the natural order, and a threat to the human gene pool.
You go Roysta, and let Darwins theory do its work.

I grew up in the N Parks north of Sydney....scariest, fastest moving fires I've ever seen.

[roysta]

I was not referring to today (Saturday) but tomorrow and more particularly Monday.
I am as aware as most of the current conditions in the bush, I've seen the fuel loads increasing year by year.
I'm talking about authorities getting to the overkill stage and yes, moron is a word that can be used for people other than fire bugs.
Since the original post Sydney's forecast maximum for Monday has been downgraded to 24 with a forecast of ....
Cloudy. Isolated showers until late afternoon.
That is what I'm getting at.

[stuey69]

Unfortunately it's a fine line between sanity and insanity.
This may well be one of those instances.
The media, egged on by some fire agencies are driving this current situation well beyond where it should be.
Lots of colourful language, plenty of adjectives etc.
Much more perspective is required. High temperatures coupled with low humidity and strong winds are a recipe for problems.
I agree that 24 and 27 degree maximums are way below where you would be thinking total fire bans might be introduced.
The only exception to that might be if there was a good deal of fire activity beforehand.

[wayno]

in nz we get fire bans in that range of temps and with justification, just had fires raging through canterbury, destroyed four houses and a chicken farm...

[taswegian]

Roysta have you considered what people endure in the wake of fighting fires? Volunteers who give up there time, annual leave, families and put their lives at risk, sometimes even lose them?
Why call someone Moron when they do their best with the predictions presented at the time? Now you qualify your statement on the basis of a downgraded temperature maximum which they didn't have then.

I'd challenge you to come to Dunalley and make your views felt in the midst of the blackened ruins of people's livelihoods.
You would probably quickly find what life at Port Arthur was like 200 years ago.

I have done my share of firefighting (voluntary) and it was not uncommon then to have to fight fires deliberate lit as of now.
Today in the news we hear of Sydneyites being charged for similar offences.

I wonder if you are being a tad selfish or un thoughtful towards others and the greater good of the community? Perhaps you live in the suburbs and just don't appreciate what it's like to live in the country areas where the threat of fire is all around you?

As a jounalist I would expect you have seen there are many shades of grey and many selective ways media people present things that often don't reflect the truth? Is that being a Moron?

[Nuts]

Nothing wrong with questioning unprecedented government action, that's democracy at work
No doubt influenced by the events in Victoria rather than immediate risk. Maybe closing parks is valid, realistic move given the ongoing resources needed V's inconvenience. Sign of the times, different world (as Taswegian said).

[roysta]

As a jounalist I would expect you have seen there are many shades of grey and many selective ways media people present things that often don't reflect the truth? Is that being a Moron?

Taswegian, a couple of things here.
If you check my original post you will not see me having a go at firies, I would never, ever do that, they are saints to many.
The people I have a big problem with are Parks.
I'm certain many of these people would love to gate the parks and throw away the keys.
Announcing last Thursday that all parks would be shut in NSW from Friday to Monday is plain stupid.
Even on Thursday the forward forecast for Sydney was saying max 27 on Sunday and 25 on Monday.
Now it's 26 and 24 respectively and there is NO total fire ban in the Sydney region tomorrow.
Usually total fire bans and park closures go hand in hand and that's fair enough.
As for your journalist reference,' if only you knew of the discussions I have on a regular basis with close colleagues of the moronic behaviour of many in the media.
There's been some very good reporting in the last few weeks, particularly from Tasmania, but, at the same time, there has been much silliness and 'creative writing' elsewhere.

[wayno]

i'm guessing coming so close after a high fire risk, the parks people felt it was safer closing hte parks for the weekends given thats when most people hit the parks and the risk of fires being started is highest
as i've said temp in the twenties doesnt necessarily reduce the fire risk that much when you've got dry plant matter. plenty of fires start in nz in the low twenties...

[colinm]

I really don't like the arbitrary exercise of authority either, and I don't like authoritarians, and I particularly don't like authoritarian followers.

There are reasoned suggestions from the BMC here http://www.bluemountainscitytourism.com ... 110113.pdf and if NPWS phrased their advice and decisions like this, I doubt anyone would have a real problem with it.

I suspect the reason for the reasonable and reasoned tone in the above document is that councils are more directly accountable to their constituents, where NPWS is larger, more hierarchal and bureaucratic. Just watch out if they change the name to National Parks and Wildlife Authority, because that really goes to a public servant's head.

Colin.

[roysta]

There are reasoned suggestions from the BMC here http://www.bluemountainscitytourism.com ... 110113.pdf and if NPWS phrased their advice and decisions like this, I doubt anyone would have a real problem with it.

Colin, BMC isn't always smiled upon, but that advice is quite reasonable, and you're right, if NPWS phrased things that way there might be more happy individuals, certainly this one.

[ryantmalone]

I must say that parks people leave me astounded.
In NSW they ban parks activity from Friday through to Monday, yet on Sunday the maximum temperature in Sydney is 27 degrees and on Monday 25.
This is total overkill.
These people are living in lala land.

In 2003, me and my brother woke up to a reasonably cold day at Cleve Cole Hut on Mt Bogong. After hearing distant thunder, we thought it best to pack up, and get off the mountain soon, so we could save getting wet.

As we got to just before Tadgell Point, the most insane looking thunderstorm hit, many lightning strikes on the summit ridge, plus many in the valleys, in particular, Black Possum Spur.

This was a cold day, no more than 20 degrees, and the fire that these lightning strikes caused quickly flared up, and created what appeared to be a large bushfire near Lake Guy. We chose to get down the mountain via Eskdale Spur as fast as possible.

In the 2.5 hours it took for us to get off the mountain, the fire had spread across the side of Mt Bogong, plus an additional fire that started near Mountain Creek had crossed the road, we were only able to get out because of the great work the CFA had done keeping the road clear of fire.

This was on a cold day, as I said. There was no wind predicted as far as I knew, it was just a combination of factors, and as we all remember, these fires were some of the worst that the state has seen.

We had to stay in Mt Beauty for a few days, until bus services resumed, and seeing first hand how fast those fires spread was something I'll never forget.

It doesn't matter what the weather is, remember, this all started on a day that to any common person would appear to be relatively low danger. If there are a combination of factors that all amount to there being a serious element of risk, then I applaud them for closing parks. Its the safest thing that can be done.

[jungle jim]

I suspect the reason for the reasonable and reasoned tone in the above document is that councils are more directly accountable to their constituents

I don't particularly like councils and their gutter politics. I suspect their "reasonable tone" has something to do with greasing the cash registers for the tourism dollar. I'm surprised they didn't issue the advice in several different languages. A bit of a blunder in my opinion.

[colinm]

I suspect their "reasonable tone" has something to do with greasing the cash registers for the tourism dollar.

You might be right. At least they're accountable to someone.

BTW and FWIW, I wouldn't go on a multi day hike in a NP at the moment if you paid me.

[neilmny]

I think there could be an issue of liability here. The decision makers most probably have to say get out or stay out so that they are not personally liable.
These days if someone trips over their own feet they want to sue someone. Maybe if a system was set where you could sign your life away stating
"do not rescue me under any circumstances, no one is to risk their life trying to save me"...............but who would be prepared to sign that?

[wayno]

a few years ago someone died on the routeburn, she took a shortcut off the track and fell over a bluff to her death...
her parents sued the dept of conservation claiming the ranger had advised her about a shortcut....
it was never proven.
as a result. DOC staff are forbidden from giving any advise on tracks that arent officially doc maintained....
then thers cave creek in the nineties a viewing platform collased into a gorge killing a dozen people. the result was a significant no of backcountry structures were demolished because they may have come up just short of a new official standard for structures as a result of the platform collapse.... better to be safe than sorry was docs policy, even if it was the only safe river crossing for miles around if a bridge didnt come up to spec and doc couldnt afford it in the budget to fix it, it was demolished...

i know forest fires a a bigger threat to the outdoors population in aus. but it can give you an idea about how parks authorities can handle threats to hte public. i'm guessing the victorian fires in recent years may have cast a shadow on aussie parks decision makers... they jsut may prefer to extend the criteria for park closures past a definite fire risk period to be as sure as they can theya rent unecessarily putting people in jeorpardy and have to go through the agony of people being unecessarily hurt or killed.

[Hallu]

The thing is there actually may be a significant fire risk this week end, and someone like roysta who didn't even talk to the rangers is calling them all morons and stupid...

[roysta]

So you live in the Sydney area do you Hallu?
No, I thought not.
Low temperatures, high humidity, next to no wind.
So yes, I stand by what I said originally and in subsequent posts.
You're entitled not to agree with that position, we live in a democracy.

[Hallu]

Oh and you're a forecast and fire expert ? No I thought not. Because those people are rating the fire danger for today and tomorrow as high still in the greater Sydney region, despite your highly scientific measurements... So yeah you're entitled to your opinion too, except when you start insulting everyone and think you know more than people that do this for a living. People answering to this post, including fire expert people, have been incredibly patient and educational towards you despite your primal "you guys are all morons for closing the parks" argument, I think you should be grateful for that...

[taswegian]

Roystra one option is to join the team.
I'm sure they would welcome additional help.

NSW has a website http://www.jobs.nsw.gov.au/Working-for-NSW-govt/Other-NSW-Government-Jobs.aspx

I would count attributes could read some of the following:
Ability to work as a team.
Experience in related field.
Management skills.
Ability and willingness to step outside the comfort box and make decisions on the run as the needs arise.
Accountability for decisions made under periods of extreme duress.
Good public communication skills.
Conflict resolution skills.
Ability to work across various platforms and with a range of people in various Government departments.
Good problem-solvers
Ability to think quickly in emergencies (such as bushfires), and also deal with long-term planning issues.
Understand OEH policies and procedures, issues about natural and cultural heritage conservation, and law enforcement.

If you feel you can add value by your contributions then I'd encourage you to pursue that option.
It could be a life changing and very rewarding exercise.

I was a public servant for 25 years. If you want to get their attention they are responsible to a Minister. Often such a person (Minister) is unskilled in the particular field of expertise but as they are 'the boss' they have the ultimate say.
Ministers get voted in by the public, Public servants by a selection criteria that means they meet the various needs of the vocation.

With regards to my post earlier.
Yes am aware you never mentioned the firefighters in your original post.
But the consequence of a fire is a response from firefighters and others.
Its the progression of events that follow an often foolhardy (not always foolhardy) action that brings undue and unnecessary hardships to others. Rarely is the actor affected other than perhaps another inconvenience due to greater restrictions placed on movements in and out of affected areas.

regards