Bushwalk Australia

the last club i was involved in did a pretty poor job in encouraging new starters.
they werent interested in providing trips for the less fit, it was sink or swim, if you couldnt handle the trips, tough, you either adapted or you gave up
theres no trips for youngsters .
if you cant afford to join the club you may get given a short shift
they tried to incorporate a student club in but they told them they had to pay the joining fee or clear off, most of the club members are middle aged or older and have few financial issues. the joining fee is nothing to them and they dont care about the financial situation of students and whether students can spare enough time to get their moneys worth from their joining fee....
the club has consistently failed to retain new members, i've only ever seen one committee member try to make a serious move to try and make changes to retain new members, and he ended up resigning from the club.
so the club membership gets older by the year and the numbers decline... the club hasnt changed with the times, more people are now are involved in sporting activities on a casual basis rather than joining a club on an annual basis. three are more casually bushwalking groups attracting larger no's of people. and their membership age range is more balanced.

I have had no contact with buswalking clubs, and what I read on these fora and what I have heard elsewhere reinforces my decsion to walk alone. An exclusive atttude developed by people who have been together for several years indicates that they do not really want any new members disturbing their cosy little group.

i think they do want members , to a certain extent the club i was in welcomed them, but i think its very much a case of this is the way we are, you must fit in very closely with the way we operate or sod off, clubs in nz are dying out all over the place.
most of the people at teh social evenings at the cliub i was at were grey haired, and a lot of the people on the trips are as well. so anyone turning up teh first time who was a lot younger may feel the club demographic isnt for them. and the longer they struggle to get younger members the worse it gets.

What I don't like sometimes is when people assume that bushwalking is something you do in groups or in clubs, not solo. Chapman does it : in the South West Tasmania book, he always refers to the reader as "the group", that's why he proposes so many one way trips, assuming there'll be several cars. I don't like bushwalking clubs : walking solo means less chance of wildlife encounters, you can't stop when you want without feeling left out, you don't walk at your own rhythm etc... And if a bushwalking club doesn't offer you financial advantage, then what's the point ? Having experienced walkers for harder walks ? Find an experienced travel mate then... Historically, bushwalking clubs have opened new tracks (like in Tasman NP for example, the Cape Pillar track is Hobart Bushwalking Club's work according to Chapman) or maintained/improved them, is it still the case ?

Hallu wrote:....the Cape Pillar track is Hobart Bushwalking Club's work according to Chapman) or maintained/improved them, is it still the case ?

Many tracks and routes in Tasmania only exist because of the hard work of bushwalking clubs, they also are the best way to organise maintenance. Nowadays red tape has limited spur of the moment maintenance but they still do it in consultation with PWS. I'm not a member of a club though, not much point for me, just a group of mates.

The Pandani club down here seems to be very active with a wide range of ages walking regularly. The HWC is more restrictive in terms of casual membership.

My club was specifically started as a result of some of these problems - namely a big age division and a bit of elitism. It's the old as one door closes another opens hey?

We cater for people 35 and younger and as such try to do as much as we can to assist new walkers. A cursory look at out demographics shows that our walkers fall into a few categories.

1. First time walkers
2. Reasonably exposed to day trips but no overnight experience
3. Experienced in both

I would say there is a fourth category of those who have substantial off trail experience but the numbers are small in this regard. Of these categories first time walkers, or under experienced walkers are the majority and so we must put together something for these folks. So some things we've done...

- Begun some car camping nights to help people get used to setting and breaking camp, camp cooking etc...
- Are in the process of negotiating liability insurance that is charged only to walkers, basically it's free to be a member it costs to walk
- Running a series of easy walks for the purpose of letting inexperienced walkers settle in
- We've begun collecting a war chest of funds with the aim of purchasing equipment that can be leased out to members for walks. The aim of this being to dramatically soften the cost of equipping a person (Melbourne Unis hiking club runs a similar system)
- Our hikes are organised online and we have a fairly active facebook community
- Regular social nights to help people meet the group before they commit to an outing

It's pretty basic stuff I suppose, but the goal of the above is to make hiking as stress free, shockless and accessible as possible to our new walkers. They can gear up later (and often do), but torture them early and you loose members.

Hallu wrote: And if a bushwalking club doesn't offer you financial advantage, then what's the point ?

really? If the only thing you are looking for in a club is financial gain well theres no point to any small interest group regardless of your interest, whether thats walking, tractors, books etc. People join hobby clubs to meet like minded people, expand their knowledge, become more active in their hobby etc. Im not a member of a bushwalking club and dont plan to be, but find it absurd that you would only join a club for finacial gain. I dont think those hobby groups existing, unless your hobby is investment banking.

so why is it so hard for some clubs to respond to the needs of new people and yet clubs like pongos can cater completely for tehm?
can't help thinking that some clubs the committee should jsuet admit they can't be bothered with doing what neds to be done for new people and step aside for more progressive people instead of trying to run teh club for a select few, it sort of negaties the reason why they advertise themselves as being for new people and its really a self slection process to get into the club where theres unwritten rules where you have to tolerate what the existing members are used to ... and too bad if you're not up to speed, so many sports have programmes for junior and new people, they recognise that they need to be given time and guideance to get up to speed.
the clubs should be honest if they are just catering for the established walkers although the club i was involved with did state previous fitness required. but still a lot of people would be caught out . i took over one trip when it was clear a reasonable portion of the walkers were getting out of their depth and cut the trip length in half when the trip leader just procrastinated on the decision...
clubs should be treating young members like gold. given the hours a lot of people and students have to work to keep their heads above water , there are fewer people who have the spare time or money to get into bushwalking..

frenchy_84 wrote:

Hallu wrote: And if a bushwalking club doesn't offer you financial advantage, then what's the point ?

really? If the only thing you are looking for in a club is financial gain well theres no point to any small interest group regardless of your interest, whether thats walking, tractors, books etc. People join hobby clubs to meet like minded people, expand their knowledge, become more active in their hobby etc. Im not a member of a bushwalking club and dont plan to be, but find it absurd that you would only join a club for finacial gain. I dont think those hobby groups existing, unless your hobby is investment banking.

Well all the people I know who are in bushwalking clubs joined it for sharing travelling costs (car and gear like tents, stoves etc...) or sharing weight otherwise they'd just travel alone. I agree with them because for me there are more disadvantages to walking in a group than alone. Of course now they say that it has more advantages, like going to places they wouldn't go otherwise, or making new friends. But for me wildlife spotting is so important when I walk that when I can travel alone financially, I do it. I also hate walking on steep slopes with people behind/in front of me, I like to go at my own pace.

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Lindsay wrote:An exclusive atttude developed by people who have been together for several years indicates that they do not really want any new members disturbing their cosy little group.

The membership fees (Sydney) seem excessive and targeted at certain individuals, certainly not those of the lower social economic ladder. Their reluctance to decentralise and embrace the 'numbers" is signing their own death warrant.

stepbystep wrote:The Pandani club down here seems to be very active with a wide range of ages walking regularly. The HWC is more restrictive in terms of casual membership.

Not quite right.. the HWC has just made several rule changes in the hope to attract more members. More advertising, less restrictions. I believe they are doing everything right. There is now no limit on guests being able to come on a walk, in the past a guest could only do 3 club walks per year.

In my experience with the HWC, they are a great bunch of people, very friendly to newcomers, and offer a much wider range (and more frequent walks) than the Pandani club.

I am part of the Tas uni walking club, and for us, catering for beginner walkers is difficult. Our members change every 6 months due to most of the members being international students. We do manage to do a few trips down the Tasman, or on Mt Wellington for example, but most of our trips do remain fairly challenging. There are a few reasons for this. Firstly we only have 2 or 3 confident trip leaders, myself being one, transport often being an issue too. Secondly, the nature of some of the tracks here makes it hard for any walk to be suitable for beginners.

I know when I have time off, I want to do the walks I want to do. Selfish as it may be, but I'm not really out to please anyone else. So my walks are 9 times out of 10, not suitable for beginners. Often now I find my trips are private, purely because it is too much of a liability to take relatively inexperienced people to some of the places I go. I also have a small group of mates of similar experience as me, so we often have our own trips too.

We as a club have tried to accommodate for beginner walkers by ways of a partnership with the Hobart Walking Club, who do far more walks, and have a varying range of difficulty on their trips.

In saying all that, we have had some very capable international students come down and loved being thrown in the deep end. We have adequate gear to get them through, and as long as they are aware of the potential difficulties, we have very few complaints about it. We took 11 to the top of Frenchmans in a huge snow storm, and 13 to a clear night below -10 at Lake Rhona, and of the ones that are still here at the uni, they are all still walking, and still going on harder walks, so it hasn't been a deterrent.

Any other ideas on how to better accommodate beginners would be very welcome.

Cheers,

Jared

find out what a beginners want to do in the way of bushwalking, ie terrain and duration....
the club i was with both were a bit hard for starters to cope with... and the club wasnt interested in reducing either.

ILUVSWTAS wrote:

stepbystep wrote:The Pandani club down here seems to be very active with a wide range of ages walking regularly. The HWC is more restrictive in terms of casual membership.

Not quite right.. the HWC has just made several rule changes in the hope to attract more members. More advertising, less restrictions. I believe they are doing everything right. There is now no limit on guests being able to come on a walk, in the past a guest could only do 3 club walks per year.

In my experience with the HWC, they are a great bunch of people, very friendly to newcomers, and offer a much wider range (and more frequent walks) than the Pandani club.

Fair play, last time I looked into joining HWC it was a PITA so dismissed the idea. The Pandani peeps I know all seem very friendly and get out more often then me...

But you'd know better than me, are you still a member of both?

No, I am still with the HWC, but like mentioned by many, I have a good group of guys to walk (including your good self Mr SBS) with so haven't walked with them in a long time. But it is nice to still be in the loop, and get emails from regulars doing private walks, read trip reports.. etc etc. For $28 per year, im happy to stay a member.

I was with Pandani for a while, but they consider things like the Western Arthurs are being extremely hard (which it is for most walkers), and dont offer many walks more challenging so I quit. I am still good friends with many from the club though, and it seems they are finally getting a few more harder trips on the program.

I'd like to see a wider range of activities on the programs, rafting, climbing.. kayaking. But then I guess it takes someone able to lead such trips to put their hand up.

jungle jim wrote:The membership fees (Sydney) seem excessive and targeted at certain individuals, certainly not those of the lower social economic ladder. Their reluctance to decentralise and embrace the 'numbers" is signing their own death warrant.

I sometimes hear people complaining about membership fees, but rarely have sympathy.

If somone drives to the Blue Mountains and back from Sydney, petrol + wear & tear on their car will be $60. And that is just one trip.

If you're serious about bushwalking, ie going more than once a month, the amount you will spend on transport, food &/or gear in a year will be many times the cost of joining a club.

there can be an issue about "what do i get for my money"
the club i was with you got a discount on travelling in the club bus but it wasnt much and you'd have to do around ten trips a year to recoup your club fees in discounts, other than that you got a small paper newsletter. people who werent gointg to be that regular don't often see the point of paying club fees

wayno wrote:the last club i was involved in did a pretty poor job in encouraging new starters.
they werent interested in providing trips for the less fit, it was sink or swim, if you couldnt handle the trips, tough, you either adapted or you gave up
theres no trips for youngsters .

Recently when I was up at Mt Feathertop, I ran into a large group from MUMC who were camping out where I was, ironically at MUMC Hut. I had a great night, got to know a few of them, and was encouraged to come along to a meeting and possibly join up.

Having spent the night at the hut with them, lots of stories were shared, lots was learned, they got to know me a bit, and I got to know them a bit.

Having said all of that, I'm probably one of the most reserved people you will ever meet in person. I don't like going to big meetings and cold meeting new people. I've never been that person, so meeting a few MUMC members whilst hiking was great, and I have no doubt that come March when I start coming to meetings, and look into a membership, that I'll be welcomed, and I'll start doing a few trips here and there.

That said... As much as that was just a random chance encounter, I'd always suggest that maybe you research the trips that a bushwalking club has arranged, and maybe head into the same area at the same time, and meet a few members whilst they are on the track. Get to know them, and see where that takes you. Just a thought...

wayno wrote:can't help thinking that some clubs the committee should jsuet admit they can't be bothered with doing what neds to be done for new people and step aside for more progressive people instead of trying to run teh club for a select few

I offer you the magic words "subcommittee" and "succession planning." Set up a younguns' subcommittee and support them to run their own demographic, provide 'em with advice, leaders and such, aiming to train up new leaders and be prepared to step aside and form an "old buffers" subcommittee when the demographic shift occurs. From reading the SBW history, that's sort of what they did (at least they had an oldies informal subcommittee, but their demographics were quite different to today's.)

i made similar suggestions to the committee but they made it clear they didnt like me butting in
i also passed on some negative feedback about one of the trip leaders, as i wasnt a club member i had strips torn off me by a committee member and the person the complaint was about wasnt happy either... basically i was told i had no right to make any comment since i wasnt even a club member. it was then i realised there was an elitist attitude about being a paid up club member, the comment "not evena club member" came up repeatedly

Sounds like you had a rare bad experience wayno, I dont think that one bad experience should be justification for a thread about all walking clubs though....

still have a bee in your bonnet much?

no i'm putting out a general question to see what other peoples experiences are in comparison to my own, i have a b in my bonnet about one club only, but i'm not writing off all clubs.
thats why my thread is a question, its not a statement that clubs arent doing enough.... i'm asking are other clubs doing enough? i know a few clubs and they are full of elderly people, the only clubs i know with a reasonable no of young people are student clubs

ok fair enough. there are about 20 topics on this site about this already though........

ah ok, wasnt aware of that.

the site's inbuilt search feature is a wonderful tool..........

See, it works really well. More people should use it before starting random topics......

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=8399&p=116721&hilit=clubs#p116721

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=8629&p=116274&hilit=clubs#p116274

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=8577&p=134271&hilit=clubs#p134271

i'd debate not having to start a new threat its a specific question about clubs , different from te previous original postings and i think the topic is valid on its own

somehow i thought you might.

My question is, is there anyone out there catering for newcomers who want to do more extreme/remote/challenging walks, more frequently than the walking clubs offer? It seems to be very difficult to break into groups that do this stuff, as they're usually very close knit and often reluctant to let new people in. I do like walking solo, but there's some walks here that it's either not feasible or not sensible to do so...

crikey your problem is the opposite to nz.
tramping club trips in nz usually freak out a lot of newbies for their difficulty....