Bushwalk Australia

Curious. Do people find that handheld GPS mapping devices (Garmin to iPhone etc) have dumbed down their bushwalking experiences? With just a map and compass, it's not uncommon to mis-places oneself and get lost here and there. With a high resolution GPS/GLONASS device, one pretty much always know where one is precisely. Does this take away some of the fun of that "lost in the bush" experience?

Discuss.

Personally, I have mixed feeling about it. I like playing with gadgets and it's another thing to do before, during and after the walk/s. I do miss that occasional "lost in space" feel and the fun it brings.

Map and compass are all I've needed so far. But the best "gadget" I bought was a plastic map holder to hang around my neck. Before I had that, a map was usually only infrequently consulted. It was stored in a pack where it wouldn't get damaged. Now that's what I call dumb!

Then after gaining confidence on solo off-track walks I decided there was one gadget I should get, a PLB. Never used it and hope I never will, but I do get "lost" sometimes. Not sure whether I'd describe that as "fun".

On the contrary, for me a GPS has opened up all kinds of possibilities.

Im pretty new to gpsing myself but dont use it for navigation, rather for trip recording and data analysis at the end lol

I don't tend to go off track so I've never used a GPS. I've been lost a couple of times, most times a wrong turn, but not for long. I don't think being lost in the bush is something people miss, GPS and PLB are good things, it means you can venture further without worrying too much. It also means in case you're cut off by a flash flood or a land slide you know you'll be rescued quickly. Maybe it has been negative for some hardcore crazy bare foot explorers who just want the full experience, but generally it's an improvement.

It definitely dumbs down the experience for me. Sometimes I deliberately keep the gadget in the pack and restrict myself to only using map & compass when navigating off-track to make sure I can still do it. Sometimes it results in getting myself a bit geographically displaced and I hope that I learn from these experiences and get better at it.

However, a mapping GPS is also a fun tool in its own way (for me it's fun testing out the maps and track recording software that I build).

Certainly made me feel a lot dumber. Came back to bushwalking after a 15 year break and there's this GPS thing that I don't know anything about. Although I've led over a hundred mostly exploratory club walks in the past, I'm relunctant to now because the majority on the walk have a far more accurate idea of where we are than me.

On second thoughts, with the scrub the way it is across the Blue Mountains at the moment , maybe a GPS is a good idea. All I need to do is just think up places to go, then stand back back and let the technologists figure out how to get there.

Clusterpod wrote:On the contrary, for me a GPS has opened up all kinds of possibilities.

For me too. E.g. Great Western Tiers - in the past, I tended to avoid it if there was a possibility of mist rolling in - off track with dubious compass accuracy in places.

Having said that, I generally want to use the GPS to hone my navigation skills that are very rusty. So if I'm off track, I use my map/compass, and occasionally check the GPS to see if I'm where I think I am. A couple of times it has saved me a retrace when I was tired - more likely to make mistakes then.

i'm unfortunately technologically challenged, so can 't yet plumb a fraction of the depths of its capabilities anyway...

@ son of a beach...
'Geographically displaced'.
Love it..

Nothing like good ol map and compass. Useful to have backup but don't rely on it.

Clusterpod wrote:On the contrary, for me a GPS has opened up all kinds of possibilities.

Such as?

Clusterpod wrote:On the contrary, for me a GPS has opened up all kinds of possibilities.

+2

Off-track routes in thick scrub / rainforest (no landmarks) are now doable. New off-track routes in general are done more efficiently and confidently, without stuffing around wasting time with maps and landmarks trying to pinpoint whether I am where I think i am. Snow and fog aren't the same issues hey once were.

Walking is much better with the GPS.

not yet.
Ive got one but never turned it on.
I may download a gps thingo on my iPhone one day and use that.
Its good to have a quick look at the map and put it away and walk on. I usually get there even if I get off course a bit along the way, you do get to see a lot more things than you would normally see if you are on the right track

nq111 wrote:Off-track routes in thick scrub / rainforest (no landmarks) are now doable.

How are you finding the use of GPS in dense rain forests? Have you had trouble with signal acquisition?

Son of a Beach wrote:It definitely dumbs down the experience for me. Sometimes I deliberately keep the gadget in the pack and restrict myself to only using map & compass when navigating off-track to make sure I can still do it.

Ahhh here we go.. I have walked with a couple of annoying douchebags that walk with their faces locked onto the GPS, SO annoying!

He kept trying to navigate us around lakes by watching the screen.... EXCUSE ME, I TRUST MY EYES THANK YOU.........

Keep the GPS in your pack and use it when you need it. It REALLY annoys me when we depend on a pre arranged track.... Isnt part of the adventure finding the way down?? Not following some other idiots mistakes?

GPSGuided wrote:

Clusterpod wrote:On the contrary, for me a GPS has opened up all kinds of possibilities.

Such as?

I don't understand that emoticon. Is it an eyeroll? Are you suggesting my statement is stupid? Oh dear. My opinion is a stupid one

A mapping GPS allows me to navigate and return to areas that are lacking in landmarks and contour. The Great Western Woodland springs to mind, say the bush up above Jaurdi station, or out east of Lake Ballard. Its flat flat flat, and the scrub is sparse and above head height. Not much fun finding where you are if you even a bit lost.

I can mark and return to individual flora of interest quickly and easily.

I can accurately plot fauna sightings quickly and easily and map out distribution.

I can explore places without water for longer, and with greater confidence.

I don't use a GPS for navigation. I feel more comfortable using map and compass.
My GPS is just a toy to play geocaching. So, no, it doesn't dumb down the experience, just makes it more fun sometimes.

Clusterpod wrote:I don't understand that emoticon. Is it an eyeroll? Are you suggesting my statement is stupid? Oh dear. My opinion is a stupid one

Ah, how non-verbal can be mis-interpreted! I apologise. I was barely expressing my curiosity with that emoticon.

A mapping GPS allows me to navigate and return to areas that are lacking in landmarks and contour. The Great Western Woodland springs to mind, say the bush up above Jaurdi station, or out east of Lake Ballard. Its flat flat flat, and the scrub is sparse and above head height. Not much fun finding where you are if you even a bit lost.

I can mark and return to individual flora of interest quickly and easily.
I can accurately plot fauna sightings quickly and easily and map out distribution.
I can explore places without water for longer, and with greater confidence.

Good use of GPS! Biologist?

I'm an old school map and compass person, so that's all I use to get around. I now enjoy teaching my kids map and compass skills, on our walks, rogaines, etc. Plus I love collecting maps! However, I always carry my ancient GPSr along if there are geocaches along the way. Even then, I only turn it on when I'm close to the cache. Lately, I've also been using my wife's phone to track our walks. For better or worse, I'm an IT person and I love metrics...

So, to answer the question posed in the subject, no, it has not dumbed down my bushwalking experience.

I did orienteering for years so I'm used to going off-track with a map and compass. But now I just want to go places and see things and a GPS helps me get where I want to go and get there faster, instead of ending somewhere where I didn't want to go.

No the GPS has not dumb down the experience. In fact it eliminates a lot of hundred metre down a pad and back wanders that in some areas is resulting in a lot of ground unnecessarily flatten when walking along tracks. But normally I just follow the track indicators or better still a member with younger eyes. Also, brilliant in snow when the track disappears. Handy at night as well.

As for off track walking a Tasmap (even satellite imagery on iPad) and compass bearing (rarely needed unless clouded out) makes more sense than peering at a small screen. But the iPhone is often used for identify features as it is easier to access. Beside had nothing but problems with map cases that go cloudy, leak, and maps breaking along the seams, etc. Sadly Tasmap only do one or two maps in a waterproof material.

A GPS is a time saver and tends to get used more on the return journey. A few times in snow it has saved hours of scrub bashing parallel to a track that might be only ten metres away. Honestly if it failed I still get home but likely it would take longer.

I suppose if we a thousand years ago would have been having the discussion is a "compass" the work of the devil I am sure many old timers at the campsite would claim that they were. A GPS is a tool, not the work of the devil, and it is up to each individual to use, or not use, in what every way they see fit.

Cheers

akl168 wrote:However, I always carry my ancient GPSr along if there are geocaches along the way. Even then, I only turn it on when I'm close to the cache.

Soon, there'll be a movement for geocaching san-GPS. Let's get serious and hard core on this!

My phone has a GPS, I use Endomondo to record my trip, but to be honest I've never once used it for navigation. Conventional maps are far more useful in my experience. I'm not aware of any accurate GPS based maps. Also as a day job I happen to work in the computer industry.

mrpotter wrote:I'm not aware of any accurate GPS based maps.

That's an unusual statement. Could you please elaborate?

All the maps I use on my hand held device are very accurate indeed.

Son of a Beach wrote:That's an unusual statement. Could you please elaborate?

Trails aren't correctly aligned to their real locations. Many trails aren't mapped at all. At least thats the case here in the Blue Mountains

mrpotter wrote:

Son of a Beach wrote:That's an unusual statement. Could you please elaborate?

Trails aren't correctly aligned to their real locations. Many trails aren't mapped at all. At least thats the case here in the Blue Mountains

Sounds like a case to become an OSM mapper.

True the Garmin maps are extremely poor for bushwalkers but Tasmap and other state mapping authorities maps on iPhone are the same as the printed maps, maybe with some electronic ones not as up to date as recent printed ones.

OSM tracks if properly mapped are the must accurate that you can get. But yes some can belong in the fiction section.

Cheers

Ent wrote:Sounds like a case to become an OSM mapper.

Considered doing this, but the plots I get from Endomondo are a good illustration of how inaccurate GPS can be. Particularly in canyons etc. where GPS signal can be lost entirely. I can get my hands on a differential GPS with centimetre accuracy (surveyors use them), but then the problem is loss of realtime Internet required for the NTRIP signal. They're also a weighty bit of kit. So I'm not all that sure any map I make would be any better than whats already available.

Another example problem with maps in this area is when Nat Parks decide to close a trail. I never knew there was a trail from Mini Ha Ha in Katoomba that ends up at the aerodrome in Medlow Bath. Nat Parks don't want you to know that either because its not on any map and they took away the stairs. But its a good half-day walk regardless

mrpotter wrote:Considered doing this, but the plots I get from Endomondo are a good illustration of how inaccurate GPS can be. Particularly in canyons etc. where GPS signal can be lost entirely. I can get my hands on a differential GPS with centimetre accuracy (surveyors use them), but then the problem is loss of realtime Internet required for the NTRIP signal. They're also a weighty bit of kit. So I'm not all that sure any map I make would be any better than whats already available.

Have you looked into OzTopo? I know it's kind of expensive, but so are good paper maps.

In relation to OSM mapping, mappers don't just simply paste in their GPS log, but use a combination of GPS log, satellite/aerial photos and other existing map overlays to enter the route. One can also edit existing route and markers. So, with your GPS log, satellite photo overlay and memory, a pretty good track can be entered for the benefit of future walkers.

Another way is. Upload your GPX track files and one of us would be happy to assist with their entry into OSM. With the area being so close to Sydney, it's inexcuasable we don't have a complete set of tracks for that area.

That does mostly work but there are places where you get weak or no GPS signal and can't visualise it on aerial photos. Mostly trails descending into valleys like every entrance to the Jamison valley and Grose valley. Even with DGPS, guessing would be the only solution.

More important than maps though would be publishing details about these trails online. I was surprised to learn that comprehensive information on Blue Mountains trails doesn't really exist online, outside of 3 Sisters, Scenic World & Ruined Castle (I call this area 'Disney Land')

Guess it keeps those bushwalking books in print.