Walking with difficult people

[lores]

What are you meant to do if your walking partner can't keep up with you or comes very badly prepared or insists on walking despite having an injury or all just mentioned?
I've just finished my first multi day hike (Kepler, NZ). I did buddy up with a friend of a friend but he showed up completely unprepared for the NZ rains - heavy jeans and heavy cotton jumpers. The first day of flat walking he sped ahead of me but on the second day he looked like death. Long story short he kept snapping at me for wanting to ask the rangers to borrow gear and report that he had a bad hip before we climbed up to the rainy very exposed ridge. In the end I walked ahead with the plan to report him to the hut warden. Luckily I passed a ranger who promised to look for him and the ranger found him mildly hypothermic on the start of the ridge late in the afternoon and escorted him back to Iris Burn. Are there any bush walking safety rules when walking with people? Especially in weather conditions when stopping isn't an option and you're too small/weak to physically help the person in need.

[pazzar]

I would suggest checking gear before leaving for a trip. Secondly, having led many trips, do not get too far ahead of your walking buddies, unless you know they are fully self sufficient. Their inexperience could lead to injury or death - being selfish is no excuse for leaving them behind. I for one refuse to take people on walks with me wearing cotton or denim, and always provide a list of equipment needed for inexperienced walkers.

[sim1oz]

And I suggest walking together for a day walk before heading out on overnighters or overseas. Getting to know someone and their experience would have helped prevent the frustration for you and potential danger for the buddy's buddy.

I did join a walk organised by someone else which was an interesting and illuminating experience for me. We did the East Walk at Lerderderg which has a bit of up and down gullies, climbing over fallen tree trunks and path finding due to high water levels in the river. There were probably twenty people and it broke up into two main groups with a smattering of people who drifted in the middle. The 'walk leader' and some other faster walkers became quite frustrated with the back pack who seemed to focus more on chatting than on moving their feet resulting in lots of waiting at indistinct track points or turnoffs for everyone to catch up.

There's no doubt that walking with someone else who is sync with you is easier and more pleasant!

[Graham51]

I learnt from bad experiences in the past that it pays to know the capabilities of the people you walk with. If you've agreed to walk with someone then you have the responsibility of keeping together as much as possible but in poor weather that means a faster person will have to wait and get very cold.
It's interesting that the topic below this one is about planning your walk and I guess that includes planning who you walk with.

[andrewa]

Choose your companions for a trip very carefully.

I once did a fly fishing trip to the Neslon Lakes NP with a long term fly fishing buddy, whom I had never walked with. His gear was "just" up to scratch, but, not only did he snore horribly in the tent, but he was also a bit claustrophobic, so he opened the tent during the night, and not only did the rain come in, but the sandflies too. Woke to a cloud of them,and damp sleeping bag hood. He's been relegated to "day trips only".

I agree that you should do a short trip first, or at least try to sort out whether they have any issues that might *&^%$#! you off before you go......most people have a concept of what pisses them off easily.

And, another "ex" fishing buddy went fly fishing to a wilderness river with an " unknown".....not only did he have to deal with someone who couldn't cast properly, but this guy wore bifocals, so walking along the river boulders caused him all sorts of grief, as he couldn't see where his feet were.

I've otherwise been lucky, but I now only go with someone I know reasonably well, and we only go as a pair. My wife and kids (daughters 13-23 x4) know me well enough that, if asked, they will only come on trips that they might enjoy, and I have a good idea of what they might enjoy anyway.

Buyer beware!

A

[davidm]

I think your mistake was in starting the trip at all with him once it was apparent his gear was dreadfully inadequate for the conditions.
Easy to say in hindsight though.

Given that you did start with him though, I don't know what else you could have done except to go ahead for help. You tied to persuade him to go back to the hut and he refused. I presume you would have accompanied him back which I think would have been the right thing to do.
Given his refusal to go to safety I don't think hanging around yourself would have helped anyone. You would have just ended up with 2 people suffering from hypothermia.

Take the whole experience as a very frustrating lesson.

[neilmny]

............it pays to know the capabilities of the people you walk with. If you've agreed to walk with someone then you have the responsibility of keeping together as much as possible but in poor weather that means a faster person will have to wait and get very cold.
.......................

I agree Graham51, also I wouldn't arrange or agree to walk with an unknown quantity.
Once you are on the track the above is the rule. You must take care of the weakest link.

[Zone-5]

I wouldn't arrange or agree to walk with an unknown quantity.
Once you are on the track the above is the rule. You must take care of the weakest link.

^^ this!

[DonQx]

I've led many trips since the late 70s. Walking, cycle touring, kayaking, rafting and motorcycling.

Have had some very "interesting" cases, mostly on trips longer than 6 days, some up to 16 days ... bleeding pregnancy (a GP who didn't tell me before the trip), someone so clumsy that they ended up destroying a fair bit of their essential gear (which they'd hired), hysteria & multi-day mental breakdown, someone consistently walking the opposite pace to everyone else in the party during pretty hypothermia-inducing conditions (we go fast, they slow ... we slow, they fast ... leads to someone standing around and shivering most of the time), someone who had mostly sugary food on a physically challenging 8-dayer, someone managing to tear half their scalp off the skull (moving fast, hair caught while ducking under a rail), people with an enormous sense of entitlement and a beef with everyone else (ego?), feuding couples (hetero & others), broken down parent-child relationships, broken bones & people insisting on carrying on (for some reason mostly nurses & doctors), ... ...

Have become fairly philosophical about "difficult" people. Some people would consider me difficult too.

My approach:
- Accept that sooner or later it'll happen
- Check them out beforehand, ask specific questions. Including what similiar trips they've done, worst conditions they've ever been in, most challenging trip the last 12 months, details about their gear, weight of full pack, etc.
- Depending on nature of trip, may ask them to show me their fully packed gear a few days before.
- Again depending on nature of trip, may ask them to come on an easier trip with me beforehand.
- Be firm to say "No" when the above doesn't seem right ... even if I get an ear full of complaints / appeals / accusations
- Once we're on the trip ... I try to mentally/emotionally "surf" with whatever happens, am mostly pretty successful too ... that may mean changing the scope of the trip, changing the pace, turning back, splitting the group (but only after open discussion & with agreement from everyone) ... treat it as a learning experience for me & them, look at the bright side of it ... one of my most memorable trips had been where I had to go at half-pace due to someone's physical condition ... saw so much more of the environment around me than ever before

dq.

[MartyGwynne]

I have also walked with some very un-prepared people which makes leading a walk frustrating to say the very least.
This made me very wary of leading walks, to the point I only called my walks difficult hard and at time extreme. That weeded out the ones who would come un prepared. I even had someone cut the toes out of their shoes for the longer walk back. Or should I say cut their shoes nearly in half.......
I have not totally come across someone who is completely difficult or hard to get on with. We all have our moments at times where we should rely upon the rest of the groups suggestions etc.
I am sure my want to avoid any difficulties is the main reason why I do like to walk alone mostly, at the very least I now am fully self sufficient and not share tent or cooking.
I guess that sort of makes me a not very good leader, that is if you take notice of what leadership is all about.
Part of being a leader is the preparation before the trip, not just getting a map out. You do have to make up a full list of gear required for the trip, also be strong enough to say "NO" to people you have concerns about.
I think I may be off subject here so must go before I burn the apricot jam.

[ULWalkingPhil]

Wow. and people think I am crazy walking solo. Last time I overnighted with someone was a year and a half ago. Luckily we had same fitness and got along very well. Always walked together. This was 9 days.

Sent from my GT-N5110 using Tapatalk

[mikethepike]

Have had some very "interesting" cases, mostly on trips longer than 6 days, some up to 16 days ... bleeding pregnancy (a GP who didn't tell me before the trip), someone so clumsy that they ended up destroying a fair bit of their essential gear (which they'd hired), hysteria & multi-day mental breakdown, someone consistently walking the opposite pace to everyone else in the party during pretty hypothermia-inducing conditions (we go fast, they slow ... we slow, they fast ... leads to someone standing around and shivering most of the time), someone who had mostly sugary food on a physically challenging 8-dayer, someone managing to tear half their scalp off the skull (moving fast, hair caught while ducking under a rail), people with an enormous sense of entitlement and a beef with everyone else (ego?), feuding couples (hetero & others), broken down parent-child relationships, broken bones & people insisting on carrying on (for some reason mostly nurses & doctors), ... ...

I'm looking for some livelier than normal companions for my next walk. Where do you find all these people? Can you put me in touch?

Have become fairly philosophical about "difficult" people.

Well no wonder!

Some people would consider me difficult too.

I'm wondering if that is why you end up with all these 'cases.'

[DonQx]

Spend a few decades (on & off) doing it for money ... tour guiding, outdoor education, vocational training & working with people with special support needs.

And ... offer trips through a large walking club and don't be shy to take people along who are new to the club & to bushwalking.

Let us know how you go.

dq.

[Hallu]

No matter how much an *&%$#! the guy you walk with can be, you must never lose him out of anger. It's your duty as the smarter and more prepared walker to look after him, even if it's a pain. That doesn't mean you can't call him names once in a while though. And blame it on yourself : your screening process for a travel mate wasn't thorough enough.

[Strider]

No matter how much an *&%$#! the guy you walk with can be, you must never lose him out of anger. It's your duty as the smarter and more prepared walker to look after him, even if it's a pain. That doesn't mean you can't call him names once in a while though. And blame it on yourself : your screening process for a travel mate wasn't thorough enough.

He could also be the person that saves your life should anything happen to you.

[Ellobuddha]

Some testing daywalks or overnighters prior to a big trip has worked well for me. Easy to test someones fitness level, mettle and determination before its a real problem. Its a much fairer thing for them too if they get to realise they are not up for it properly.

A lot to be said for solo I think. Nice to either go hard or amble along depending on how you feel and the terrain.

[davidm]

No matter how much an *&%$#! the guy you walk with can be, you must never lose him out of anger. It's your duty as the smarter and more prepared walker to look after him, even if it's a pain. That doesn't mean you can't call him names once in a while though. And blame it on yourself : your screening process for a travel mate wasn't thorough enough.

To be fair to the original poster (she's my sister-in-law, so I've spoken to her about this incident), she didn't leave the other guy out of anger or because she was pissed off at him. She left him because he wasn't able to walk at any reasonable pace, to the point that she was stuck out in the rain and cold as well and worried about them both getting hypothermia. He kept refusing to return back to the safety of the previous hut, and had refused to get proper gear before the walk. She pushed on to get help from a ranger as she didn't feel there was anything she could have done to help him by hanging around.

So I guess to get to what was the root of her original question, when is it ok to leave someone behind with the intention of getting help?

I agree with most posters have said about vetting partners. I wouldn't want to use a public forum to say 'I told you so...', so I'll leave that one there

[neilmny]

If the guy had refused to get proper gear before the walk and if it was essential to have proper gear, she shouldn't have started the walk with him in the first place.
Was she offering to return with him to the nearest hut or was she just wanting him to go back while she went on?
How would she get hypothermia as quickly as he would if she had the proper gear required herself?
Looks like a very badly planned and executed walk.

[Strider]

Most non-bushfolk don't understand how important "proper gear" is. Cotton T-shirts, runners and tins of tuna are the faux-bushwalkers specialties.

[sim1oz]

@davidm, your extra info made the situation a bit clearer. Like neilmny, I wouldn't have started walking with the person in the first place. But in your sister-in-law's situation, I can understand why she went to get help. Some people can be stubborn and a danger to themselves despite other people's best efforts.

@neilmny, even if one has the proper gear when walking in the cold, with rain or snow, it can be a pain to keep putting on and pulling off your insulation layers to ensure your body stays at a healthy temperature. Far easier to maintain your body temp by moving at a pace that works for you, and changing that pace to suit the terrain so that you don't overheat or get cold. I know, because when we were walking the OLT in the snow, someone offered us a hot cup of tea by the side of the trail, and by the time the water was hot and drinks were ready I was uncomfortably chilled. It was my own foolishness that I didn't automatically pull open my pack and put on extra layers, but snow was falling and it all seemed too difficult. It took me a while to get comfortably warm again, but it was a good lesson for self-understanding, we now know with certainty that we prefer to keep walking to manage our body temp, with some scroggin every now and again to keep our internal furnace fuelled. Hubby and I agreed we should have politely declined and kept walking. If the person she was walking with kept changing pace or stopping and starting it might have been challenging physically and mentally to keep warm even with the right gear.

[sim1oz]

@strider, cotton t-s, runners, tins of tuna, you forgot denim jeans....

You made me laugh. We did the southern circuit at the Prom recently and one father with two young sons ticked all your boxes (well, I didn't check their packs for the tins of tuna!). Some tracks are promoted so heavily by tourism these days that they are not just attracting experienced bushwalkers, and despite most ParksVic parknotes pointing out the appropriate gear there always seems to be someone who walks in unsuitable gear. My hubby started commentary on the family's gear once we had walked on and I was very proud of how well I have educated him...but he probably would have done a day walk in jeans before my time. I'm still remembering the girl in the denim miniskirt and Dunlops we saw on the OLT between Windermere and New Pelion - it rained for over 12 hours that day...

[DonQx]

So I guess to get to what was the root of her original question, when is it ok to leave someone behind with the intention of getting help?

Depends methinks ...

I'm assuming that they are mentally & health-wise still OK'ish, I'm still OK, I'm confident in my abilities, and I don't have a legal duty of care in this case.

2 major considerations to my way of thinking ... (1) is there reason to assume that the left behind is reasonably safe or at least not significantly worse off, and (2) is it an agreed course of action.

IF it is agreed ... OK

But life isn't always that neat. Sooo ...

IF communication has broken down / they are totally & utterly unreasonable and I'm at the end of my tether THEN I might also take off. I would tell them what I'm doing and also tell them what I think the safest thing for them is to do (for example, put up tent & stay put).

This isn't quite written up as I'd like, but need to do something else now ... ...

dq.

[davidm]

If the guy had refused to get proper gear before the walk and if it was essential to have proper gear, she shouldn't have started the walk with him in the first place.
Was she offering to return with him to the nearest hut or was she just wanting him to go back while she went on?
How would she get hypothermia as quickly as he would if she had the proper gear required herself?
Looks like a very badly planned and executed walk.

I haven't asked her specifically, but I'm pretty sure the plan was for her to return to the previous hut with him. She had the proper gear and was well prepared.

Yes, in hindsight it was a very badly planned walk! Problem was, the guy she was with assured her before hand that he was very experienced, had years of army training, and was of good fitness. All of which turned out to be a load of bull.

[neilmny]

If the guy had refused to get proper gear before the walk and if it was essential to have proper gear, she shouldn't have started the walk with him in the first place.
Was she offering to return with him to the nearest hut or was she just wanting him to go back while she went on?
How would she get hypothermia as quickly as he would if she had the proper gear required herself?
Looks like a very badly planned and executed walk.

........................................the guy she was with assured her before hand that he was very experienced, had years of army training, and was of good fitness. All of which turned out to be a load of bull.

Crikey how do you work around that one? She was kind of snookered.

[Zone-5]

I like a cigar and a shot of schnapps at camp too..
I luv taking it easy, when bush walking ain't fun, I don't do it.

[north-north-west]

If the guy had refused to get proper gear before the walk and if it was essential to have proper gear, she shouldn't have started the walk with him in the first place.
Was she offering to return with him to the nearest hut or was she just wanting him to go back while she went on?
How would she get hypothermia as quickly as he would if she had the proper gear required herself?
Looks like a very badly planned and executed walk.

........................................the guy she was with assured her before hand that he was very experienced, had years of army training, and was of good fitness. All of which turned out to be a load of bull.

Crikey how do you work around that one? She was kind of snookered.

You just blankly refuse to set out with them. Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind. And maintaining one's own safety before attempting to rescue others is the first rule.

This is why I walk alone. I don't bug anyone else, they don't bug me. If I'm not properly prepared no-one else suffers. And no-one can drag me down with them.

[headwerkn]

The only person I hike with currently is my partner, and while she isn't quite as strong nor fast as I, she does a good job so there's no real issue.

That said, she isn't taking the whole lightweight hiking thing as seriously as me - despite having a bad back, thus would benefit from it more - and is usually carrying a few more kilos than myself, despite the fact I carry our tent and most of the food. Unfortunately I fear that my continued quest for fewer kilos will see me carrying more of her stuff in its place...

Cheers, Ben.

[ULWalkingPhil]

Unfortunately some people say anything to get what they want. Including lying about there abilities. I have encountered this in the past,
Im very experienced, been in the army, blah blah blah, within hours on the walk it was obviously *&^%$#! they had fed me.
There was times I refused to walk and called the trip off, other times having to cut the trip short.

I now choose to bushwalk solo.

There is only one person I have been on an overnight bushwalk with in the past year and a half, and I will easily bushwalk with him again, his the same as myself, I was also the first person he bushwalked with for years. We are planning another adventure.

Sent from my GT-N5110 using Tapatalk

[wayno]

the more people talk themselves up the more you should smell a rat. some of the most capable outdoors people are some of the most understated... if people won't listen to any doubts you might have then be wary, there is a type of personality euphemistically called a "cheer leader" everything is always good, nothing is ever bad... that iceberg floating towards the ship is nothing to worry about, just another opportunity for some fun...

[wayno]

Unfortunately some people say anything to get what they want. Including lying about there abilities. I have encountered this in the past,
Im very experienced, been in the army, blah blah blah, within hours on the walk it was obviously *&^%$#! they had fed me.
There was times I refused to walk and called the trip off, other times having to cut the trip short.

I now choose to bushwalk solo.

There is only one person I have been on an overnight bushwalk with in the past year and a half, and I will easily bushwalk with him again, his the same as myself, I was also the first person he bushwalked with for years. We are planning another adventure.

Sent from my GT-N5110 using Tapatalk

he's the same as you? hell Phil.. and I thought they broke the mould after you were born