Bushwalk Australia

Onestepmore's post about the challenges of finding slots in life for decent walks got me thinking of another issue - finding slots for decent pre-walk training.

I believe there is probably as many right answers as individuals (whatever works for you). No doubt the best training for walking up hills with a pack, is, walking up hills with packs. But that doesn't happen (or happen enough).

For the past couple of years what I have been doing is:

- Find a strong, non-cushioned chair.
- Load up backpack with lots of water bottles and spare pillows for padding until about, or slightly over, expected maximum weight of walk.
- Don backpack, step-up, step-down alternating legs in front of the news. My two kids like to join in and step up and pull on me all directions to cause instability (great joke to them - guess it kinda replicates constantly adjusting to rough terrain on the fly ).
- Do this for about 30 mins 3 nights a week, every night if possible in the week leading up to the big walk. Pick up pace of steps closer to walk to get more cardiovascular impacts.

This works for me especially because I am lowering myself as much as pushing up - this helps strengthen the muscles and reflexes that cause issues for lots coming down a long hill with a decent pack.

What works for other people? Especially time-constrained types that push keypads, phones and mice at work all day long so don't have an inherent fitness ready to go.

Just around and about I try and take the stairs and steps 2 or 3 at a time, and when going down steps I try and do so heel first as slowly as I can
When doing prep for pulling the sled in winter I drag an old 16inch landcruiser rim around the block

http://www.parkrun.com.au/events/

Strictly 5km. Commence at 0800 (or 0700 hrs for Curl Curl + Mosman - which commenced March 1 !). Every Saturday, world-wide. Fantastic timing and on-line stats. There are at least 12 in the Brisbane area, yet only five in Sydney. Get your children to do them with you

And parkrun is free.

Not sure training with full weight on the spine for extended periods is necessary. Develop core strength, specific muscle groups and then finally aerobics. All better done in the gym or other exercises without load beating on the spine. The spine and associated discs do not need weight "training".

GPSGuided wrote:Not sure training with full weight on the spine for extended periods is necessary. Develop core strength, specific muscle groups and then finally aerobics. All better done in the gym or other exercises without load beating on the spine. The spine and associated discs do not need weight "training".

I am sure the gym with specific exercises would be better. But the point of the OP is that won't happen, or won't happen anywhere near enough.

GPSGuided wrote:Not sure training with full weight on the spine for extended periods is necessary. Develop core strength, specific muscle groups and then finally aerobics. All better done in the gym or other exercises without load beating on the spine. The spine and associated discs do not need weight "training".

Never a truer statement GPS as I lie prostrate on the floor with 2 ruptured disks in my back, not fun.

For me it's a tricky one, I do weight training 4-5 days a week. For cardio I use a bike at maximum resistance for 5-10 minutes before weights, I also run 4-5 km 2-3 times a week (I have a bad knee and don't want to push my luck). I also do some basic strength training for my legs once a week (squats, lunges, dead lifts & calf raises). I also walk at lunch and run up stairs rather than walk.

With all of the above the weight of a laden pack is easy to hold at arms length with one hand. I can run a good distance if needed too. But it doesn't really translate well to hiking fitness, even with a light pack there is no substitute for actual hiking to build up the endurance required for it.

This could be a personal quirk, but my experience has been that I must hike to build hiking fitness. Everything else only slows the rate at which I lose fitness/endurance.

Giddy_up wrote:

GPSGuided wrote:Not sure training with full weight on the spine for extended periods is necessary. Develop core strength, specific muscle groups and then finally aerobics. All better done in the gym or other exercises without load beating on the spine. The spine and associated discs do not need weight "training".

Never a truer statement GPS as I lie prostrate on the floor with 2 ruptured disks in my back, not fun.

I must say I am still missing something here.

It implies to me that, repeatedly stepping up and down with 20kg on my back is not good training for: repeatedly stepping up and down with 20kg on my back? It sounds to me like runners should not run on a treadmill for fear of damaging their knees that they need when running on the road.

I understand that specific exercises with weights and the like would be better. But surely the above is better than nothing, or doing non-weight bearing exercises only? Isn't the evidence that the worst thing to cause back injury (other than bad technique or shock loadings) is lack of core strength and training?

Again, the original topic was meant to be what works within constraints (e.g. two jobs, two kids, life) rather than the ideal training mix.

Bubbalouie wrote:This could be a personal quirk, but my experience has been that I must hike to build hiking fitness. Everything else only slows the rate at which I lose fitness/endurance.

I find this too. Unfortunately, it is not always possible.

I look it slightly differently; anything I do is better than doing nothing, simple decisions like walking to the shop rather than driving
I have to agree with the opinion that the best training for waling with a pack is walking with a pack.
I would do steps with 20kg for longer than 5 minutes myself ; if I lasted that long.

nq111 wrote:It implies to me that, repeatedly stepping up and down with 20kg on my back is not good training for: repeatedly stepping up and down with 20kg on my back? It sounds to me like runners should not run on a treadmill for fear of damaging their knees that they need when running on the road.

Don't get us wrong. The point I am trying to make is that extended weight loading on the spin is not good for one's long term health. If it can be minimised (just for the walks), then the better it is. Of course, if one is going to a major expedition, then yes, there will need to be full pack training. But for recreational non-extreme walks, a bit of compromise is desirable for spine health. Strong aerobics (cycling, running, swimming) and muscle conditioning may just be sufficient. Back problems as for most chronic health issues are built up over a long period of time. They tend to be cumulative. So just be careful.

I agree with GPSguided. Im loathe to place additional stress on knees and back from doing a lot of walking with heavy weights. Im a fan of squats, lunges and burpees for confined space work and trail running for cardio when possible.

radson wrote:I agree with GPSguided. Im loathe to place additional stress on knees and back from doing a lot of walking with heavy weights. Im a fan of squats, lunges and burpees for confined space work and trail running for cardio when possible.

+1

Joints and backs heal very slowly. Often never fully if the damage is bad.

That said, my day pack is very heavy at around 7-8kg (as day packs go anyway). I do this deliberately to get some conditioning. Also a properly set up pack shouldn't be loading the spine up much at all.

(I went for a hike today for the first time in 6ish weeks, as expected I'm grossly unfit when it comes to steep hills. Running next to the Torrens river is much easier I guess.)

Im lucky as I back onto the bush and have the GNW in the valley below. When I have a big walk coming up I tend to do my normal gym training during the week plus a hike every weekend for the months leading up. I carry my full pack weight on those walks and usually pick off the steepest firetrails for a few hours on the weekend as well. One or two nights in the week I make a loop going up or down the quarry stairs and back around on a steep street.

i am still confused.

i can understand GPSGuided's suggestion to ease into this training, take it easy. To me that is the point of doing this at home - not hitting the track too under-trained because I don't always get the time to do proper training.

But otherwise, why is doing small amounts at home of what I am going to do out in the bush anyway bad for me? I keep following to the logical solution that this suggests we shouldn't walk with packs at all because that will bugger knees / backs whatever. It seems everyone is concerned about me doing 30 mins of exercise in a room with a 20kg pack, but not that I am going to be doing that same exercise (with more variables to go wrong) for 10hrs a day, 8 days straight in a couple of weeks.

I don't see my joints as something I plainly consume over my lifetime, so I should ration them for a few goods walks and baby them the rest of the time. My understanding wass that they can be protected, and deterioration slowed and mitigated with good exercise.

Surely I am far better off doing some lead-up at home under relatively controlled conditions (kids excepted) for shortish periods to build up to the bush so I reduce the risk of the damage that everyone is speaking of?

Hey NQ load on up. You obviously want to. Some of us believe that load carrying can mostly wait till the actual bushwalk/climb itself. Its all cool. You do your way and we'll do our way and everyone has fun.

radson wrote:Hey NQ load on up. You obviously want to. Some of us believe that load carrying can mostly wait till the actual bushwalk/climb itself. Its all cool. You do your way and we'll do our way and everyone has fun.

Aw Gee, it ain't like that

Maybe I am doing something stupid and doing damage. But I can't make sense of the line of reasoning put to me. If I could, and it made sense, I would stop my current approach.

Maybe one of the medically qualified people on this forum will chime in at some stage.

But otherwise, why is doing small amounts at home of what I am going to do out in the bush anyway bad for me? I keep following to the logical solution that this suggests we shouldn't walk with packs at all because that will bugger knees / backs whatever.

It'll only cause injury if you carry too much weight &/or exert yourself beyond your physical capacity. Within reasonable limits regular & proper training should address both of these.

It seems everyone is concerned about me doing 30 mins of exercise in a room with a 20kg pack, but not that I am going to be doing that same exercise (with more variables to go wrong) for 10hrs a day, 8 days straight in a couple of weeks.

Doing the exercise at home should be fine, personally I'd be more concerned with jogging whilst wearing a weight vest or fully laden pack. The weight of the vest isn't much but landing with each step causes a sudden deceleration that produces much greater forces overall. But, there are people who do this, again, with no ill results.

Also, if done slowly 20kg is a very very small weight for a grown man to be lifting, I'd be shocked if you hurt anything assuming you aren't running with that weight on your shoulders.

I don't see my joints as something I plainly consume over my lifetime, so I should ration them for a few goods walks and baby them the rest of the time. My understanding wass that they can be protected, and deterioration slowed and mitigated with good exercise.

This is also my understanding.

I have to exercise a few times a week minimum otherwise I start to get problems, I'm guessing this is de to having a desk job.

In fact there's quite a bit of research in support of your understanding (not an expert, but it's a subject of interest): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah-Para ... physiology

I believe pre-existing injury is an exception to this. If you've damaged something bad enough any further damage takes much longer to heal & has a more cumulative effect than it'd normally do.

With the above in mind I'd say striving not to injure yourself (especially backs & knees) is very important. That's a fine balance between sufficient training & not overdoing it. I honestly have no idea what that balance is (again not an expert). Everyone here seems to agree that regular training is vital, the argument seems to be about what level is "over doing it". Personally, at least with my knees I err on the side of caution.

In my personal case my left knee is a bit dodgy, if I do nothing at all it goes to hell in a week. If I try jogging 5 days a week it'll also cause me trouble, regular walking & hiking seem to stave of problems. I've recently tried trail runners though & they help a lot, 2-3 days a week of running seems to be a sweet spot between maintaining basic fitness & not causing things to get sore. This is all anecdotal though.

In any case I'd love to have an expert chime in, I've spoken to a phsyio about this kind of thing (join & cartilage adaptation) when I was having rehab a few years back, but training for hiking & the spinal column never came up.

I'll throw my 2 bob in please don't bite. In 20 years in infantry we rarely exercised carrying packs to get fit to carry them. The thinking is if you are aerobically fit, by a combination of walking, running, swimming etc combined with strength training with circuits and wts, you can carry the pack and webbing in the field for extended periods. It hurts for the first few days but you get used to them. I laugh every time I see on these forums discussions about heavy 20kg packs, when our average was 60 - 70 kg. Since leaving I find a combination of cycling, elliptical trainer and my own version of circuits, all of which are low impact, keep me able to complete day and multi-day walks with no problems. Yes training with the actual weight you intend to carry will obviously get you fit to carry that weight, but it does place undue wear and tear on the knees, hips and backs.

nq111 wrote:Maybe one of the medically qualified people on this forum will chime in at some stage.

Already have.

As the military input above, get your aerobic endurance up and core physical strength up, you'll be pretty close. Frankly, 20kg for 15-30mins is pretty meaningless. Better to go for a jog and push ups/sit ups.

Thanks all,

I am happy with:

- There are better exercises than what I am doing (that was the premise of the original post, so expected that. Yes I don't get much cardio but I seem to get good leg strengthening).
- I need to ease into it if out of shape to build up strength and not do stupid damage.

What I am worried about and still unclear:

- By doing this exercise am I doing any lasting damage?
- If so, by walking in the bush with a pack, am I doing lasting damage? Why do I not see much discussion of this anywhere?

I get the military thing - but 20kg is not that much (especially compared to what the military carry) - I am actually a pretty fit and sound type.

Yes, jokes about being slow to get things are fine, but I want to understand this better.

NQ111... Remember, chronic health problems, including musculoskeletal, are cumulative. No one can tell you if any one episode will do you in, but it's just wise to avoid when not absolutely needed.

GPSGuided wrote:NQ111... Remember, chronic health problems, including musculoskeletal, are cumulative. No one can tell you if any one episode will do you in, but it's just wise to avoid when not absolutely needed.

A serious question here:

Do these chronic problems arise from doing things improperly?

So, for example, doing a shoulder press with poor form you can hurt yourself with as little as 15kg per arm. With good form (after building up of course) getting 25kg per arm is perfectly safe (this is what my physio said anyway).

So, do the knee & back issues arise from improper support &/or asymmetrical muscle development. Or are your knees & back a bit more like car tyres, if you take it easy you'll get a few extra km but they're limited no matter how you slice it?

(For what it's worth I'm aware that knowing when something is improper is not going to be easy, but I'm genuinely curious.)

Bubbalouie wrote:Do these chronic problems arise from doing things improperly?

I think the key to understanding is this. Life is a series of probabilities and there are invariably multiple factors that leads to any potential chronic condition. It may be through overloading, incorrect posture or multiple minor injuries, or other possibilities. The more one approach the limit, the greater the chance some residue damage would be left. The key point is, there's no point in adding unnecessary stresses when not needed. If one needs to carry heavy packs, then use gym equipments with professionally designed routines (that have already tried to minimise unnecessary stresses) to attain strength and achieve greater aerobic/endurance capacity. There's a time when one needs to carry that load, but in the meantime, learn to train smart!

i think the best thing to do is keep your spine / core strength supple & adequate to carry a load all day . Walking around in the boots you intend to hike in helps prepare the lower extremities. A walk to the shops with a 40 litre pack for groceries will add up . Also get dropped off 5 ks early on any family trip & walk home ( keep boots in boot ) . they won't miss you .

Get a dog that must go out every night in all weather . and wear your boots .

at the gym i thought about the canvas sand bags with handles on them . a 20kg one on your shoulderswhilst doing step ups ( not too bent over ) would be comfy & adequate weight gearing . lunges squats & general leg work .

So in the general theme of simple pre-walk training I now walk home from GDs school twice a week, it's 7k, the same distance as from Windy Corner to Pretty Valley Hut, in a week or two I'll add a rucksack with hip loading and a few kilos and then I'll start dragging a small tyre as well

I bought a cross trainer a couple of years ago.

i love it as it doesnt impact on knees or ankles and can get on it for a solid 30 mins at pace if cant get outside for longer after work etc.

Great for core strength which I think makes a huge difference. I start loading a day pack with weight increasing it week by week before a big walk. Dont seem to get the soreness in the joints but still notice the benefits massively once out there.

I like the cross trainer as well as riding the bike. Bad knees from the army so the less impact in training the better for me.

I have found squats and lounges with weight help with the strengthening.
But time on the cross trainer and running for 30 minutes several times a week leave me ready to hit the trail.