Bushwalk Australia

I went for a walk on my own yesterday and kicked a toe on a rock. It seemed insignificant at the time and I really only noticed it on the walk out when it started to become painful. On arrival home I discovered that it's badly bruised (black and purple on top) very sore and swollen. I don't think it's broken as I can move it without significant pain. I put an ice pack on it last night which helped a bit, and sleep relieved the pain until I stood up and started moving around this morning. I think it's a little better though and I can walk OK, with some discomfort.

Has anyone had a similar experience? How did you treat it? Did it need medical attention?

I think it's a common injury called 'runner's toe'?
My wife stubbed both big toes on one walk.
Both of her toe nails turned blue/black.

If you treat it early enough, you can insert a needle under the toenail to bleed out the blood (from the blood blister under the nail).
If not, the blister pushes up the nail and eventuallly (after 8 wks) the nail falls off.
Wife left the black nails on to protect the new emerging nail underneath. Looks gross but...

Best advice is to see a sports physician i reckon!

I lost the nails on two toes last walk - second and fourth on the right foot. One got infected and one got bruised. If it is only a soft-tissue injury then ice and panadol are probably all I would do. If you are worried about the bone or joints, or if pain persists, see a doctor. Often there isn't much that can be done for a broken toe anyway - just split it, or strap it and let it heel. (Disclaimer: I am not qualified to give medical advice).

On the other hand you probably should see a Psychiatrist about your rock kicking problem. Is it something you do often? Do you do it for sport or just out of frustration?

you could always try and bash your thumbnail with a hammer.........this should stop you thinking about your sore toe for awhile....hit it fairly hard though...

I've only had one toenail loss, must have been all those boulders I climbed over around Thetis / Perrins Bluff area. The toe was a bit uncomfortable, but not too bad. Took about a month for the toenail to come off and the other one is growing back nicely.
Doc suggested a band-aid to stop the nail catching on things - it was sticking up rather ugly for a while.

Sounds to me like your problem is something different.

I stubbed my thumb pretty (very) hard a couple of weeks ago, swollen and it's a bit dark under the nail. Still swollen and sore - I wouldn't go with the hammer suggestion by the way.
I had it explained to me a bit like the blood vessels have leaked plasma into the surrounding tissue, hence the swelling, - a bit like if you were to mop up egg whites with a sponge, then put the sponge in the oven (one thinks WHY??), the egg whites solidify so that's the plasma doing its unwanted swelling in the thumb. Massage, ultrasound, and nurofen to help decrease the swelling. Also massage Voltaren into it.

Hope you can find something here in my waffle that relates.

As its is most likely a soft tissue injury just try apply the RICE principles (Rest, Ice, Compression, Elevation - although some of these are not very practicle at the foot...) for the first 48-72hours. NSAIDs such as Nurofen are probably also better than paracetamol as well as you are treating the inflammation (although panadol will still help to get rid of the pain). Don't massage the toe for the first three days as this may increase blood flow to the area and cause increased swelling. Ultrasound may be of some help if you go see a Physio/Sports Physician/ anyone thats got one.

johnw wrote:I went for a walk on my own yesterday and kicked a toe on a rock.

Do you often find toes sitting on rocks when you're out walking? Was there a foot attached, or was the toe also on its own?

From experience, even if it is broken - although the ice would have been agony if it was, so it probably isn't - there's nothing much to be done except the usual RICE treatment. Toes can be slow to heal, however, especially if your circulation is not brilliant. Don't get too worried unless it starts turning green and threatening to drop off . . .

Thanks to all for the variety of replies. It has started to heal surprisingly quickly, and without me doing a whole lot about it. Still sore, swollen and bruised, but to a much lesser extent. I even managed to complete a training run last night with little discomfort.

loric wrote:I think it's a common injury called 'runner's toe'?

As a runner I've experienced runner's toe. Possibly footwear-related over longer distances. I lost the nail off one on the other foot after a 12km race walking event a few months ago (in addition to a massive blister on one big toe). Yep, turned black etc and eventually was hanging on by a thread, then fell off. Now mostly grown back. In my current case though the nail (so far) seems unaffected, but the area immediately behind it is purple/black. In this case caused by a single impact/blow rather than small repetitive impacts, but the result is similar I guess.

walkinTas wrote:On the other hand you probably should see a Psychiatrist about your rock kicking problem. Is it something you do often? Do you do it for sport or just out of frustration?

Hang on wT, it sounds like your problem is worse than mine with all those injuries! Oh, alright I confess. I know I'm going to have give up this strange habit . Maybe there are patches for it, like for people wanting to give up smoking. But I suspect that you'd have to apply them to your feet!

olblackbilly wrote:you could always try and bash your thumbnail with a hammer.........this should stop you thinking about your sore toe for awhile....hit it fairly hard though...

Thanks olblackbilly. I see the logic, but...umm, no thanks .

tasadam wrote:"Sounds to me like your problem is something different.

Yes, it seems confined to the top part of the toe immediately behind the nail, most of the way back to the joint.

tasadam wrote:nurofen to help decrease the swelling. Also massage Voltaren into it.

Ephebus wrote:As its is most likely a soft tissue injury just try apply the RICE principles NSAIDs such as Nurofen are probably also better than paracetamol as well as you are treating the inflammation...

Yep, have been following RICE treatment to some extent. Taken ibuprofen twice and that helped. Not tried voltaren but sounds good.

scavenger wrote:Do you often find toes sitting on rocks when you're out walking? Was there a foot attached...?

Only the one attached to my leg .

scavenger wrote:Toes can be slow to heal, however, especially if your circulation is not brilliant.

I've noticed that with previous injuries. I'm not getting any younger either, which doesn't help .

Can't help you with your current problem but, because I used to get them for nothing with work, I've always worn Blundstones steel cap boots for walking, unlike everyone else here who seem to wear footwear that's in vogue. I can honestly say that I've never had your problem but I have shattered a rock or two.
No doubt this will provoke discussion about my footwear!
Cheers all

iandsmith wrote:Can't help you with your current problem

About 95% healed now, without me doing a real lot about it.

iandsmith wrote:but, because I used to get them for nothing with work, I've always worn Blundstones steel cap boots for walking, unlike everyone else here who seem to wear footwear that's in vogue. I can honestly say that I've never had your problem but I have shattered a rock or two.
No doubt this will provoke discussion about my footwear!

If they work for you Ian it sounds like a pretty good deal to me . When about to descend from the Labyrinth about 18 months ago we met a Kiwi who was coming up. I don't know why, but the conversation immediately turned to his detailed account of the $30 Kmart safety boots he was wearing. I don't think I've ever seen anyone so excited about a pair of boots. I was sceptical but since he'd completed most of the OLT in them I guess they must have had something going for them. I think I'd be more confident in the Blundstones but they'd be too heavy for me (rock-kicking aside ).

good to hear your toe is getting better Johnw, I used to have a pair of hobnail boots years ago,good on the wet slippery rocks,better than leather soles,although you do well with a couple of rabbit skin moccasins........you have to catch the rabbits first though......

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Not having anything close the the experience of most everyone on this forum - perhaps this comment might be a little irrelevant.. But out of interest's sake...

I bought a swanky pair of Scarpas 12 or so years ago to travel in the US. They seemed fine, although the stiffness etc did take a little getting used to (I got some laughs at least with "en pointe" demonstrations of their rigidity). I did a lot of traipsing around in the snow and no matter what I did to those shoes and despite all efforts to "break them in", they chewed the hell out of my heels. It was just nasty.

When I got to New York I bought a pair of steel cap paratrooper boots (Carolinas) and sent the Scarpas home in disgust. The Carolinas (pictured) are probably the best shoes I've ever owned. They were comfy, never stank, were not unbearably hot (wandered around Mexico in them too) and have only just recently given up the ghost... I still kick around in them, but they would be no good for walking (esp. in Tassie) as they leak .

I've considered getting them bronzed.

So, sadly - the Scarpas have come out of the box I threw them in and will have to do until I can replace my old favs. I just bought another pair of walking shoes and they seem as uncomfortable after a while as the Scarpas (circulation stoppers..). I'll probably be hunting for another set of paratrooper boots when I'm settled in - although the newer models seem to have done away with the steel caps (much to my despair - I'm a toe-kicker from way back). Anyway, I figure if they were comfortable enough for me to lug a pack in all day and then leave on to sleep - they were probably alright for bushwalking...
As an aside - I just kicked a good bit of my little toe off yesterday while mucking about in the backyard... Seems steel caps are a must for the likes of me.

Laugh and point at will...



Sharon.

Oh... and I hope your toe is healing nicely johnw...

walkinTas wrote:On the other hand you probably should see a Psychiatrist about your rock kicking problem. Is it something you do often? Do you do it for sport or just out of frustration?

If you get really worried about the whole rock-kicking thing - it seems there may be enough people around with a similar affliction to start up a support group... Perhaps we could organise an "intervention"??
Either that or get into the steel caps and embrace your rock-kicking proclivities...

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Hey Brett.

I think that the Scarpas and I were just not destined to be. They are fine for just cruising around at home and I wear them mostly as a workboot these days - but I wouldn't risk a long walk in them and would even be hesitant to wear them out if I was going to be doing something as simple as wandering around the city or something all day. I double sock and adjust my laces - you name it... the pressure on the top of my foot when I do adjust the laces cuts off my circulation and the socks don't seem to help (tried different brands etc). Trust me, a shoe that expensive - I've really TRIED to bond with them... Even bought all manner of inserts to try and bend them to my will make them fit. Alas - no joy.
I think I could have come to terms with the rigidity (it has its applications after all), but I must admit that I prefer to be able to feel the terrain a bit more. I still think I'd prefer a boot to a softer shoe though, just bought some Merrells and I'm not completely sold on them..
I've known a couple of other girls who've experienced the same issues with the scarpas (the leather - SL?). Maybe you're right about the weight/size issue. I'm about 5'2". Who knows.
Good for the toe kicking thing though! Those babies are solid!!

sml_12 wrote:Oh... and I hope your toe is healing nicely johnw...

It is, thanks Sharon. Just mildly sore and all bruising has now gone .

sml_12 wrote:If you get really worried about the whole rock-kicking thing - it seems there may be enough people around with a similar affliction to start up a support group... Perhaps we could organise an "intervention"??
Either that or get into the steel caps and embrace your rock-kicking proclivities...

I think I'm getting better. I managed a whole walk last weekend without kicking anything...much.

sml_12 wrote:...the Carolinas (pictured) are probably the best shoes I've ever owned...

Wow. You wouldn't want to have to re-lace those too often .

Brett wrote:Scarpas split the world into lover or haters of them as they are a stiff boot

I won't argue about the stiffness. I've been "acclimatising" to a new pair of Scarpa Treks for about 6 or 7 weeks by wearing them around the house as much as possible. I still haven't made a dent in the stiffness and boy do they creak and groan when you walk in them, like old floorboards . They feel very comfortable though. I'll eventually find the courage to try them out for real. Mmm, they might be nearly as good as steel caps for rock kicking .

Boots are a very individual thing, aren't they? More so than any other gear.

I have difficult feet - square toed, wide ball, very high arches and instep, narrow heel, prominent Achilles - complicated by the right ankle bone being a little large and misshapen from a bad fracture many, many moons ago. The only truly comfortable footwear I've had until recently was socks in cold weather, or nothing if it's warm enough. Those paratrooper boots terrify me - the ankle throbs just looking at them. I've tried on Scarpas and couldn't get them off the feet quickly enough.
Blundstones, on the other hand, I always found rather comfy, although I haven't tried them since the ankle damage, so who knows . . .

btw, I'm a bit of a rock (and root)-kicker myself, but how on earth do you damage toes that badly when you're wearing shoes/boots? All my toe injuries (a total of 12 fractures and a dislocation, so far) have occured whilst barefoot. You'd have to be really trying to hurt yourself that much when the feet are covered.

Johnw wrote:

sml_12 wrote:If you get really worried about the whole rock-kicking thing - it seems there may be enough people around with a similar affliction to start up a support group... Perhaps we could organise an "intervention"??
Either that or get into the steel caps and embrace your rock-kicking proclivities...

I think I'm getting better. I managed a whole walk last weekend without kicking anything...much.

RKA! ...and excellent news johnw.

Johnw wrote:They feel very comfortable though.

IMHO, the number one criteria for selecting a pair of boots: that are a comfortable fit.

johnw wrote:I think I'm getting better. I managed a whole walk last weekend without kicking anything...much.

walkinTas wrote:RKA! ...and excellent news johnw.

Yes - Excellent news indeed johnw! But should you feel yourself backsliding, just remember that your friends at RKA (thanks for that walkinTas) are here for you - at least in spirit..
The first step is admitting that you have a problem... so you're well on your way. One step at a time.

Easy with those Scarpas fella - watch your step.... Good luck!!!!

I used to love my old Scarpas - very solid. In particular I loved the stiff soles. However, they required breaking in and after they were broken in they didn't quite fit the shape of my feet. Of course everyone has different feet, and each has their own preferences in footwear.

But, I've gotten over the whole "breaking in" of bushwalking boots, and if the boots are not perfectly comfortable in the shop when I try them on, I won't buy them. Ie, I will no longer buy footwear that needs to be "broken in" at all. Many good all-leather boots do not require it these days. Of boots I've tried on, Zamberlains and Raichles were both perfectly comfortable in the shop with no requirement for breaking in.

How are you supposed to know if the boot is ever going to fit properly or if it is ever going to be comfortable if it is too stiff, hard or uncomfortable in the shop, and you just have to keep wearing it until it eventually (hopefully) breaks in and feels good? What if you break it in and it turns out it isn't quite right for your foot (and everyone's feet are different)? That's a lot of money to spend on boots that are uncomfortable. I know... it happened to me. Never again!

I do miss the stiff sole of my old Scarpas though. They made every bit of rough ground and every pointy rock feel like it was flat.

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johnw wrote:... In my current case though the nail (so far) seems unaffected, but the area immediately behind it is purple/black. In this case caused by a single impact/blow rather than small repetitive impacts, but the result is similar I guess.....

the area immediately behind (proximal to) the observable nail plate contains the nail matrix from which the nail plate grows. It is very well perfused so any force pushing the nail plate rearwards will cause rupture contusion. You will almost certainly lose the nail, a feature of the matrix under stress. All the best, mark

Son of a Beach wrote:...But, I've gotten over the whole "breaking in" of bushwalking boots, and if the boots are not perfectly comfortable in the shop when I try them on, I won't buy them. Ie, I will no longer buy footwear that needs to be "broken in" at all. Many good all-leather boots do not require it these days. Of boots I've tried on, Zamberlains and Raichles were both perfectly comfortable in the shop with no requirement for breaking in.

YES !!! Um... that is... Yeah, I agree Nik. I arrived at this position some years back when I started to question the whole break-in myth/folklore. I now consider it to be a sales pitch to make a customer buy a pair of boots that aren't really comfortable. Sure, leather softens with time and boot-shape changes as the boots wear, but a pair of boots that squeezes, pinch or rub in the shop will do the same on the track - guaranteed.

pats2 wrote:

johnw wrote:... In my current case though the nail (so far) seems unaffected, but the area immediately behind it is purple/black. In this case caused by a single impact/blow rather than small repetitive impacts, but the result is similar I guess.....

the area immediately behind (proximal to) the observable nail plate contains the nail matrix from which the nail plate grows. It is very well perfused so any force pushing the nail plate rearwards will cause rupture contusion. You will almost certainly lose the nail, a feature of the matrix under stress. All the best, mark

Thanks Mark, you sound like a medical person . I thought the nail felt loose at one point but it hasn't budged, and all surrounding discoluration has gone. Maybe I'll be lucky.

johnw:
In my experience it takes more than a month for nails to come off, so don't give up hope yet.

sharon:
You can always try the old Army method for breaking in leather boots. It's supposed to be infallible.

scavenger wrote:sharon:
You can always try the old Army method for breaking in leather boots. It's supposed to be infallible.

Care to elucidate?

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hmm...
I am assuming that we are talking about the same treatment that is supposedly an excellent cure for tinea and the like....?
I think I'd rather go with buying shoes that fit than testing that remedy. Thanks all the same...

just go and bash your thumb with a hammer.....you never know you may lose a nail...