Bushwalk Australia

Well clearly it's impractical to carry out one's urine (unless it's a very short trip). But I don't think carrying out your poo is that unusual (a little distasteful maybe), particularly in certain environments and at certain times of year. I think at the very least we should all be packing out our used toilet paper.

You can pack out your urine....in your bladder. But you need the steely resolve and self discipline of John J Rambo.

What about tampons/pads? I must say I have never struck these while out, they must all get humped out thank Jeebus.

Taken to the extreme, the definitive solution to avoid human impact is to not go there. Eat and carry that! LOL


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Hermione wrote:Well clearly it's impractical to carry out one's urine (unless it's a very short trip). But I don't think carrying out your poo is that unusual (a little distasteful maybe), particularly in certain environments and at certain times of year. I think at the very least we should all be packing out our used toilet paper.

Justification with reference to logistical convenience offends the gravity of this thread. Consider the emerging issue of pharmaceuticals contained in human waste products leaching into the environment. Frighting stuff.

maddog wrote:Justification with reference to logistical convenience offends the gravity of this thread. Consider the emerging issue of pharmaceuticals contained in human waste products leaching into the environment. Frighting stuff.

Don't worry, pittance compared to what's already been blown around by the agriculture and livestock industry.

maddog wrote:

Hermione wrote:Well clearly it's impractical to carry out one's urine (unless it's a very short trip). But I don't think carrying out your poo is that unusual (a little distasteful maybe), particularly in certain environments and at certain times of year. I think at the very least we should all be packing out our used toilet paper.

Justification with reference to logistical convenience offends the gravity of this thread. Consider the emerging issue of pharmaceuticals contained in human waste products leaching into the environment. Frighting stuff.

maddog, I wasn't being flippant when I made this comment, I take littering in our wild places very seriously actually. I was being truthful I don't carry out my urine and I don't know anyone else who does. I don't think I realistically could on say a 1 -2 week trip, if that is such a big issue maybe we should all consider doing as GPSGuided suggests and just not visiting in the first place.

Hermione,

That’s just dandy. I agree. We must consider our impact. But if we condemn discarded peels, seeds and matchsticks, we must also consider excrement, if not to be hypocrites. As stated, pharmaceuticals contained in faeces and urine pose a significant risk to the environment, an issue known to science. Nothing flippant about this. Clearly it cannot be left behind by those who commit to leave no trace. No doubt any logistical difficulties inherent in the cartage of urine can be overcome by a simple process of boiling (dehydration). Faeces could likewise be sterilised.

Regards,

Maddog.

Hermione wrote:... I think at the very least we should all be packing out our used toilet paper.

Toilet paper is designed to biodegrade quickly and easily. It's very different from tissues, which degrade poorly. Anyone who is not convinced can try a very simple experiment: rub a small square of each between your fingers under running water. The toilet paper falls apart immediately; the tissue remains intact.

I sometimes discard apple cores in the bush (after eating them very clean), and I will burn paper and food scraps on a campfire. If I carried these things out of the bush and drove them home to my compost heap, that would be an environmental negative. It never makes sense to burn fossil fuels to transport organic waste, no matter how tiny the amount.

Everything else I carry out. I would never burn plastic, as burning it turns a solid item into toxic gases.

I make sure to carry out other people's rubbish that I find on the track; at least enough to make up for my apple cores, paper and food scraps, and poo. This is an ethical check on myself, to guarantee that I'm not avoiding carrying my organic items due to laziness or weight saving.

As for poo, I bury it in the ground. Nature can deal with it just fine that way in reasonable quantities. Urine is acceptable almost anywhere except in drinking water.

Hermione wrote:I take littering in our wild places very seriously actually. I was being truthful I don't carry out my urine and I don't know anyone else who does. I don't think I realistically could on say a 1 -2 week trip, if that is such a big issue maybe we should all consider doing as GPSGuided suggests and just not visiting in the first place.

I take littering and the environment seriously, and it very much seems that my views are shared by most experienced bushwalkers. On bushwalks, humans need 2-4 litres of water a day. After five days this is 10-20 litres, well beyond the capability of a human to carry. If there's concern about the impact of human wastes then the last sentence in the quote applies. It's hard to imagine many people carrying out human wastes or not going on a walk due to concern that their wastes will have an adverse impact.

maddog wrote:We must consider our impact. But if we condemn discarded peels, seeds and matchsticks, we must also consider excrement, if not to be hypocrites. As stated, pharmaceuticals contained in faeces and urine pose a risk to the environment, an issue known to science. Nothing flippant about this. Clearly it cannot be left behind by those who commit to leave no trace. No doubt any logistical difficulties inherent in the cartage of urine can be overcome by a simple process of boiling (dehydration). Faeces could likewise be sterilised.

The science cited looks at the impact of human wastes in civilisation. I'm unaware of science regarding the impact of dispersed bushwalkers. If buried or allowed to soak in tthe ground, the impact should be slight. I do not know. I do know that faeces breaks down when left on the surface, and quickly. Park management and bushwalkers are more concerned with diseases such as E. coli.

The remedy seems to be to bury in dispersed locations, well away from riparaian areas, campsites and tracks. As a general rule, maybe 10 metres from a track should suffice, and 200 metres from a popular campsite that has no toilet. The ground will act as filter, and should be acceptable to most people and park management.

walk2wineries wrote:Walking at Belair National Park today. $12 fee

We walk there often, going in from Belair Railway Stn carpark entry, no fees apply ??
Do you mean to drive in the park and use the carpark area to walk from ?
If so, yes there is a park entry fee for vehicles, but not pedestrians, plenty of places to park just outside and walk the extra 500m in.

----

Yes, agree, take it in, take it out. No brainer for most, a few (usually very occasional outdoors types) don't see the common sense in this philosophy.
In some places / seasons even #2 toiletry waste.

Think about packaging, repackage into zip locks, as mentioned these are great for wet / messy rubbish, double zip lock bag it if it's a worry.

Lophophaps wrote:On bushwalks, humans need 2-4 litres of water a day. After five days this is 10-20 litres, well beyond the capability of a human to carry.

Let's be 'intelligent' about this. One can drastically reduce the accumulated weight by evaporating the collection every night by the camp fire. At the end, you'll just be carrying out lots of nitrogen rich salt crystals. Ultra-light!

From Wiki on Urine, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urine

Undiluted urine can chemically burn the roots of some plants

GPSGuided wrote:

Lophophaps wrote:On bushwalks, humans need 2-4 litres of water a day. After five days this is 10-20 litres, well beyond the capability of a human to carry.

Let's be 'intelligent' about this. One can drastically reduce the accumulated weight by evaporating the collection every night by the camp fire. At the end, you'll just be carrying out lots of nitrogen rich salt crystals. Ultra-light!

From Wiki on Urine, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urine

Undiluted urine can chemically burn the roots of some plants

GPSGuided do you actually do this? I walk mostly in fuel stove only areas, plus I think having a campfire in remote areas creates an unnecessary impact of it's own. I don't see carrying in extra gas and burning more fossil fuel to try and evaporate my pee as a really viable option.

Hermione wrote:GPSGuided do you actually do this? I walk mostly in fuel stove only areas, plus I think having a campfire in remote areas creates an unnecessary impact of it's own. I don't see carrying in extra gas and burning more fossil fuel to try and evaporate my pee as a really viable option.

Of course not. Aren't we all talking a lot of hypotheticals on a non-walking day? Irrespective, can always just leave it under the sun for natural evaporation.

But I do think concentrated urination on one plant is not ideal when dispersion can be easily achieved.

Just checking you sounded so serious, obviously I'm too gullible!

Hermione wrote:Just checking you sounded so serious, obviously I'm too gullible!

But I was seriously trying to solve Lophophaps' 20kg dilemma and believe the solution is quite credible.

Seriously??

Yes, all demonstrating that if there's a will, there's a solution. On the point of carrying out all urinary excrements, it can be executed with little or no weight, volume and hygiene penalties.

Todd Carney had the pefect solution to this problem...I could post a pic but I better not.

GPSGuided wrote:Yes, all demonstrating that if there's a will, there's a solution. On the point of carrying out all urinary excrements, it can be executed with little or no weight, volume and hygiene penalties.

Don't you think there are other more far reaching environmental concerns with this method, like carbon emissions per litre of urine?

Puredingo, yes I think it's probably best not to post a photo. I had no idea who Todd Carney was, but now I know I somehow doubt he was motivated by environmental concerns.

maddog wrote:Hermione,

That’s just dandy. I agree. We must consider our impact. But if we condemn discarded peels, seeds and matchsticks, we must also consider excrement, if not to be hypocrites. As stated, pharmaceuticals contained in faeces and urine pose a significant risk to the environment, an issue known to science. Nothing flippant about this. Clearly it cannot be left behind by those who commit to leave no trace. No doubt any logistical difficulties inherent in the cartage of urine can be overcome by a simple process of boiling (dehydration). Faeces could likewise be sterilised.

Regards,

Maddog.

urine is already sterile so there is no bacterial contamination problems. It doesn't need 'boiling down' to be carried out because the traces of pharmaceuticals are very small in the populations of humans in the bush - and there is no reason to suggest that wilderness areas are subject to harms from whatever contamination exists from urine.

i don't know how realistic it is to boil down faeces because:

1. it is not necessary in most situations where there are significant amounts of walkers (i.e. pit toilets and similar infrastructure exists)
2. it is not necessary where there are few walkers with limited infrastructure (becuase the level of contamination is not high if correctly disposed of),
3. the environmental benefits may be completely offset by all that gas being burnt to render your poo into a dry powder.
4. if this is what you are considering please tell me where you walk because I do not want to share a campsite with someone who considers heating up their shee-it in a jetboil is a good idea.

Whilst human wastes have pathogens and other adverse elements, is the impact significant enough to be of concern? There's a thread - probably in the Tassie OLT area - about a portion of the OLT that has crook water due to lack of sanitation. Is this replicated on other tracks with a lot of people, such as NSW's Six Foot Track and NZ's Milford Track? The two aspects to look at are water quality and impact on flora and fauna.

Regardless of any science or views, it seems to me likely that most visitors will move away from the river, track or campsite, burying solid waste. There's too much of a yuck factor for most people to do more. Also, most people will view carrying out as impractical.

SLparker's post above sums up my views nicely. I'd like to see some science on the impact of walkers in remote regions. The OLT reference cited above is the only information that I can recall. It's not science but will suffice.

Hermione wrote:Don't you think there are other more far reaching environmental concerns with this method, like carbon emissions per litre of urine?

No additional energy expenditure if it's just by the camp fire or by solar evaporation. A good!

Lophophaps wrote:Whilst human wastes have pathogens and other adverse elements, is the impact significant enough to be of concern? There's a thread - probably in the Tassie OLT area - about a portion of the OLT that has crook water due to lack of sanitation.

I understand that human excrements on the OLT get helicoptered out at regular interval. Just too much to dig and bury around the various huts. As said, the best conservation is to not go there.

GPSGuided wrote:

Hermione wrote:Don't you think there are other more far reaching environmental concerns with this method, like carbon emissions per litre of urine?

No additional energy expenditure if it's just by the camp fire or by solar evaporation. A good!

What you're really stating is that if urine is an environmental harm from walkers in the bush (and there is no evidence that it is) we ought to not walk at all.

because lighting a fire to boil down your urine is complately implausible in many wilderness areas (especially if its raining) and to get the surface area necessary to evaporate a day's worth of *&^%$#! you'd have to carry a paella pan. Again - what if it rains.

Which leaves you boiling down a jetboil bily full of *&^%$#! at the end of the day. let's think about this for a minute.....

Try this, it's a bit long winded but interesting; http://sustain.pata.org/wp-content/uplo ... nwaste.pdf
Also just from personal experience I don't think people are always as careful around water sources as we'd like to imagine. I also think toilet paper doesn't break down as quickly a swe'd expect, why else am I always finding other people's used TP on the track?

The above posts were in the littering thread. As the conversation has moved away from litter, a better heading is indicated. I've changed the first and last posts to reflect this.

Hermione wrote:Try this, it's a bit long winded but interesting; http://sustain.pata.org/wp-content/uplo ... nwaste.pdf
Also just from personal experience I don't think people are always as careful around water sources as we'd like to imagine. I also think toilet paper doesn't break down as quickly a swe'd expect, why else am I always finding other people's used TP on the track?

excellent resource - thank you.

Hermione wrote:Try this, it's a bit long winded but interesting; http://sustain.pata.org/wp-content/uplo ... nwaste.pdf

Thank you, some science.

slparker wrote:What you're really stating is that if urine is an environmental harm from walkers in the bush (and there is no evidence that it is) we ought to not walk at all...

Actually I don't have a strong view on urine but just taking other discussants' view on urine damage and applying some logic and solutions to resolve their issues.

Realistically, no one can deny that the best conservation is avoidance. Then that's not really practical for all our desire to go bush.

GPSGuided wrote:Realistically, no one can deny that the best conservation is avoidance. Then that's not really practical for all our desire to go bush.

See
http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-20344201
"One widely told story about Brahe was that his bladder burst at a royal banquet when he had been too polite to leave the table and relieve himself. Accounts say he died 11 days later."
Now we're back to littering. Most parks management require visitors to bury their own dead.