Minsiter for Water Snow & Ice

[muka]

Now that Tim Holding has been found some 2 kms north of Federation Hut . . .
And considering the detailed publicity and comments from other walkers in the area . . .
What can we learn from this man's experience, seeing he is a very experienced walker indeed.
Cheers muka
PS: I wonder if he did get to pitch his tent after all?
PPS: I feel he should not have gone alone, and did the walkers he met convey any warnings?

[Steve73]

Now that Tim Holding has been found some 2 kms north of Federation Hut . . .
And considering the detailed publicity and comments from other walkers in the area . . .
What can we learn from this man's experience, seeing he is a very experienced walker indeed.
Cheers muka
PS: I wonder if he did get to pitch his tent after all?
PPS: I feel he should not have gone alone, and did the walkers he met convey any warnings?

If he is an experienced walker than no problem going alone. However, IMO it is irresponsible going solo in that area, at this time of the year without a PLB.

[geoskid]

Haha - Very clever title Muka, hope it sticks.
Glad he was found well. I'm waiting with interest to find out the details of what happened and what can be learned from this.
Until then everything is speculation.

[photohiker]

Just to add to the speculation:

Watching the TV Coverage, the minister was found below the snow line with no sign of his tent or pack. He possibly had built some sort of rough shelter, and he had a water bottle.

On ABC TV, the reunion between him and his partner was somewhat less than enthusiastic. Big hug for mum though.

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[sthughes]

I hear 'the powers that be' are already talking about making it compulsory for solo walkers in Tassie National Parks to carry a PLB.

[walkinTas]

I hear 'the powers that be' are already talking about making it compulsory for solo walkers in Tassie National Parks to carry a PLB.

The powers that be what? How can you police that?

[Steve73]

I hear 'the powers that be' are already talking about making it compulsory for solo walkers in Tassie National Parks to carry a PLB.

The powers that be what? How can you police that?

You can't. I guess they could pass a law though that if you need to be rescued and hiking solo (and not carrying a PLB) then you pay for the rescue.

[sthughes]

I'm not saying it's a good idea, just saying it was on the radio.
I agree it would be impossible to police. But then it wouldn't be the only such law I guess.
I'd prefer a policy of providing free short term PLB hire and 'strongly encouraging' their use.

[Steve73]

I'm not saying it's a good idea, just saying it was on the radio.
I agree it would be impossible to police. But then it wouldn't be the only such law I guess.
I'd prefer a policy of providing free short term PLB hire and 'strongly encouraging' their use.

They have free PLB rentals here in the Blue Mountains. Very good idea.

[tasadam]

The news that I heard said initially that he fell off the track and then lost the track...
I was a bit confused before I heard a more thorough description - not so much "fell", but "slipped" 100 metres down from the track, and could not locate the track after that slide.

2 nights in below freezing conditions does suggest an element of luck in survival unless you have all the gear to actually intend staying in those conditions.

Day walks I don't carry a tent, but I do carry space blanket, full wet weathers, first aid, extra warm layer, head torch.
We nearly always end up needing our head torch. Blame the cameras for that.

[loric]

Ill preparation and lack of proper gear for the conditions.

Without a self arrest device (ice axe or whippet/ski pole) one has little chance of arresting a slide.

Feathertop is renowned for its slippability and to walk the peak without crampons or decent snowshoes is foolish perhaps? Then to go without a self arrest device is all the more foolhardy. He's super lucky not to have gone over a big drop or hit a rock...

I've been snowshoeing and boarding the Vic Alps these last few weekends and can state with absolute certainty that most of the windward faces have been pretty icy. Lots of wet days followed by freezing nights - then strong winds to blow away the powder, have left big icy slopes.

Reports from other walkers indicates that he attempted the peak after slipping around on the ridge around the hut. I reckon he just bit off more than he could chew.

I'm glad he's back safe and well and especially glad that the people put at risk in the rescue were also safe.

EPIRBS are not only to save you own skin - but also to avoid putting your rescuers at risk - and in this case a simple handheld UHF radio or sat phone would have sufficed.

Did anyone else think it strange that a search was initiated merely 5.5hrs after the return eta had elapsed? I'm sure that police usually wait the 24hrs before starting a search...

[photohiker]

Day walks I don't carry a tent, but I do carry space blanket, full wet weathers, first aid, extra warm layer, head torch.
We nearly always end up needing our head torch. Blame the cameras for that.

That 250g 'Bothy Bag' mentioned in a previous post (by TCP?) sounds like a wise inclusion in a day pack.

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[Son of a Beach]

I've emailed the minister inviting him to tell his story here. However I'm not sure if even after returning to work the email will have made it past his vetting staff. We can only hope.

[north-north-west]

I've been snowshoeing and boarding the Vic Alps these last few weekends and can state with absolute certainty that most of the windward faces have been pretty icy. Lots of wet days followed by freezing nights - then strong winds to blow away the powder, have left big icy slopes.

Yep, it was bad enough on The Bluff a few weeks back, I was wishing for crampons on Eadley Stoney and the rock face. Feathertop would be far worse.
Still, it's a relief to know he's back OK. Well done all the searchers.

[johnw]

I'm not saying it's a good idea, just saying it was on the radio.
I agree it would be impossible to police. But then it wouldn't be the only such law I guess.
I'd prefer a policy of providing free short term PLB hire and 'strongly encouraging' their use.

They have free PLB rentals here in the Blue Mountains. Very good idea.

Interestingly, shortly after these became available I was at the NPWS visitor centre at Govetts Leap. I asked whether, hypothetically, I could borrow one and take it to Tasmania. After much eyebrow furrowing the answer came back "yes, as long as you fill out a trip intentions form". However I'm not sure that it would be in the spirit of the scheme so haven't pursued it any further.

[tastrax]

...the bush fires in the sixities some very smart group made the decision that all likely organisations involved should be able to communicate by radio, SES, Fire, Police, Ambulance, Hydro, Councils, etc but nowadays everyone seams to have gone there separate ways.....

Parks, Forestry, councils, police etc all operate on VHF networks with shared towers/bases etc around the state. During emergencies we can monitor a bunch of channels to know what is going on whilst keeping some channels for more private conversations. Of course folks can scan these channels if they have suitable equipment but not talk over them.

http://www.scanningtasmania.org/freqs.html - Some marine radio is also VHF.

I am not sure if there is any "official" regular monitoring of the UHF network but there are still plenty of users out there and plenty of equipment available.
http://www.prestigecom.net.au/index.php ... ex&cPath=2

Certainly some Parks vehicles also carry UHF equipment - mainly for close range work.

[tastrax]

...Interestingly, shortly after these became available I was at the NPWS visitor centre at Govetts Leap. I asked whether, hypothetically, I could borrow one and take it to Tasmania......

Similar things occurred when EPIRB hire first became available via Service Tasmania - folk hired them for the Sydney Hobart Yacht Race, remote 4wd trips on the mainland etc. The feeling was that whilst it was not the intended purpose of setting up the system, no-one wanted to be held responsible if the person who wanted the EPIRB actually got into trouble and then came back and told the media that they tried to hire one but were refused! Much less paperwork to hire it out in the first place than face the flack if anything went wrong!

[north-north-west]

I hired one from the Parks office in Khancoban, before that Christmas trip that ended in blizzards. Got back into town after the office was closed and didn't get back up that way until four weeks later. Emailed them to let them know both I and the unit were OK. No problems, got the deposit back and all.
It's a good system, but a bit of a nuisance if you're hoping for an early start. Paperwork, paperwork, paperwork . . .

[the_camera_poser]

Day walks I don't carry a tent, but I do carry space blanket, full wet weathers, first aid, extra warm layer, head torch.
We nearly always end up needing our head torch. Blame the cameras for that.

That 250g 'Bothy Bag' mentioned in a previous post (by TCP?) sounds like a wise inclusion in a day pack.

Yup- mine's been put into the daypack stuff. The inside of that thing is like a sweat lodge, with just me and the 5yo in it. The wife refused to help us test it. She's boring. I don't think it's a good thing for getting out of the cold simply for comfort's sake, as you would have a helluva shock when you left the shelter, but for cold rain or emergencies, it's going to be great. I guess a waterproof sleeping bag could be as good in emergency situations, but it wouldn't allow a lot of flexibility, and sharing warmth.

[muka]

Despite all the spin Brumby gave this bloke . . .
now for some whiteout , I mean fallout

http://www.theage.com.au/national/hiker ... -f6y9.html

Hikers query minister's preparation
LORNA EDWARDS
September 2, 2009

The rescue of Tim Holding

It didn't take searchers long to find missing state minister Tim Holding after daybreak on Tuesday.

EXPERIENCED hikers yesterday questioned whether Water Minister Tim Holding was properly prepared for his ill-fated climb up Mount Feathertop.

Bushwalkers said he was ill-equipped for the climb without snowshoes, crampons, an ice axe and an EPIRB (Emergency Position-Indication Radio Beacon). He also broke the bushwalkers' rule of walking in groups of at least three.

''He didn't have the equipment to actually do that climb up Mount Feathertop and he was not prepared for those bad conditions,'' said Ray Kennedy, who was in a group of experienced hikers who last saw the minister as he set out from Federation Hut on Sunday.
Tim Holding with his girlfriend, Ellen Whinnett.

Tim Holding with his girlfriend, Ellen Whinnett. Photo: Angela Wylie

Mr Holding told paramedics after his rescue that he had become lost after sliding 100 metres down a ridge while trying to climb towards the summit.

''If he had stayed on the trail, he would never have got up there anyway and might have got a third of the way or not even that far,'' said Mr Kennedy.

The night before his walk to the summit, he had attempted to set up his tent outside Federation Hut but failed because he had conventional rather than snow pegs, Mr Kennedy said.

''He had said, 'I've got a tent that I want to try out and see how it goes in these conditions'. He came back later to the hut saying his pegs wouldn't hold it up and queried what snow pegs were and I showed him.''

Steve Grove, the paramedic who accompanied the minister on his flight from Bright to The Alfred hospital in Melbourne, said Mr Holding would have been found on Sunday morning if he had carried an EPIRB, which would have given his exact location.

Bushwalking Victoria, whose members were involved in the search for Mr Holding, said the devices cost as little as $200 and were essential in remote areas where mobile phone coverage was not guaranteed.

''We'd certainly advise them for that area, particularly at this time of year … Mr Holding slid down the side of the ridge and was found in a gully which means a mobile phone is unlikely to have worked,'' said president David Reid.

Mr Reid said the ordeal demonstrated the dangers of bushwalking alone. ''You should not go off by yourself in that part of the world and our policy is to say there should be a minimum of four people on any expedition so if someone does get injured, there are people there for support and to get assistance.''

Despite his lack of snow equipment, the minister was praised by paramedics and bushwalkers for carrying enough food and wearing layers of warm clothing to ward off hypothermia.

Earlier Mr Holding had told paramedics he was surprised by the level of media attention, but he had never thought he was in danger and always believed he would be rescued.

Mr Grove said Mr Holding was ''well aware of the amount of effort that went into his safe return and wanted me to express that to the public and the services involved''.

''I don't think he got much sleep over the last couple of days but he's fine,'' Mr Grove said. ''He is in very, very good spirits considering he has been up in that rather cold environment for the last 2½ days.''

[Son of a Beach]

He also broke the bushwalkers' rule of walking in groups of at least three.

Who's rule???

Mr Reid said the ordeal demonstrated the dangers of bushwalking alone. ''You should not go off by yourself in that part of the world and our policy is to say there should be a minimum of four people on any expedition so if someone does get injured, there are people there for support and to get assistance.''

Oh, Bushwalk Victoria's policy, according to their president Mr Reid. Except he said four, not threee. 75% correct is OK I suppose, or at least would have been is they'd said "Bushwalk Victoria's policy", and not implied all "bushwalker's rule". Gotta love journalism.

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[tastrax]

It didnt take the locals long to latch on to the situation... and suggest solo walkers carry epirbs

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009 ... 673606.htm

[Son of a Beach]

I don't mind people suggesting it... it's a good suggestion. But I think that making it 'required', as that article quoted, is not so wonderful.

[Singe]

Um? Must find out about these $200 PLB as well

When you do... I'll take three

[Nuts]

That was the rule back when time began, 'less than three shall never be'....... silly old timers.....
Perhaps a rule for plb's, a rule governing numbers, another forcing you to also carry a communications device ? (following on from my earlier 'assumption' that it is often just as important to get medical advice as to initiate a rescue).
Also group of rules setting out minimum standards for equipment and perhaps experience- maybe a 'stay upright' course similar to motorbike licencing (You listening Brett lol)

Oh... and one rule to rule them all....

Ridiculous.... I imagine that common(sense?) will prevail and they will settle for marginalizing people (aka good old 'frowning upon'), seems to be just as effective at changing attitudes (if not outcomes)

[johnw]

He also broke the bushwalkers' rule of walking in groups of at least three.

Who's rule???

Mr Reid said the ordeal demonstrated the dangers of bushwalking alone. ''You should not go off by yourself in that part of the world and our policy is to say there should be a minimum of four people on any expedition so if someone does get injured, there are people there for support and to get assistance.''

Oh, Bushwalk Victoria's policy, according to their president Mr Reid. Except he said four, not threee. 75% correct is OK I suppose, or at least would have been is they'd said "Bushwalk Victoria's policy", and not implied all "bushwalker's rule". Gotta love journalism.

Not my rule either . While I agree that it's better for safety, if I had to find another 2 or 3 people for a walk I'd never be able to go. This type of ignorant journalism is exactly what I was referring to in this topic.

Oh, and Brett I'm with you. I would also love to know where I can buy a $200 "EPIRB" (PLB)...snigger. Maybe we can get them even cheaper than that for a bulk deal . I suspect that price refers to the now superseded units, which were around that amount. Further evidence of little knowledge of the facts I think.

[tasadam]

One question.
How many "experienced" walkers do not know what snow pegs are?

http://www.theage.com.au/national/spy-p ... -f6xy.html

An experienced hiker, Mr Holding still had water but had run out of food and was said to be saturated and dehydrated.

http://www.theage.com.au/national/hiker ... -f6y9.html

''He had said, 'I've got a tent that I want to try out and see how it goes in these conditions'. He came back later to the hut saying his pegs wouldn't hold it up and queried what snow pegs were and I showed him.''

Any call on mandatory carrying of EPIRBS or PLB's is opposed by me.
I can respect the comparative ease of which a search would be achieved should someone be in distress. I can also respect the opinion that a solo walker has nothing else to fall back on but than to let someone else know where they're going and when they'll be back, if they do not carry a PLB and there is no phone reception.

But making it mandatory is knee jerk stuff. People have been walking the wilderness for many years prior to PLB's becoming available, and the survival gear they carried was somewhat primitive compared to what we are able to carry now.
There are those out there that should carry a PLB - perhaps they are more accident prone or not so experienced as to be able to deal with situations.
Knowing the weather and making correct decisions because of that weather would be a good start. Seems to me that this person made a bad call.

A bit of interesting discussion re the technology that located him on that Spy Plane article.
Wonder how long it will be before that sort of technology is mounted in satellites?