What are your views on bushwalkers using GPS?

[FatCanyoner]

Hey folks,
This is a perennial issue that I rant about all the time, but I'm really keen to do a bit of a straw poll of bushwalkers and find out what other people's views are about GPS, and when / where you use it, if you do.
As background, I'm religiously anti-GPS. I hate the idea of relying on electronics in the bush and I bemoan the loss of bushcraft. It's a little hypocritical I know, given I happily carry a gas stove on most trips (I don't like making fires in fragile places like canyons), sleep on a thermarest, etc. I refuse to carry GPS or an EPIRB ( or whatever they are meant to be called). I try to enforce this on others on my trips, to varying success, and if a GPS does come out I demand the person show on the map where they think we are first, before turning it on. Most of my argument is about the fact that it encourages the same sort of lazy navigation that you get from people just following the track / following the leader, rather than actively reading the terrain. Given practice is the most important part of navigation, this would seem to create a cycle where people use GPS because they are not confident, but never get competent because they always use GPS. I've also had some funny experiences with tech nuts, like the people who email around GPS logs that (especially for canyons) are much less accurate than what I could sketch on a map for them.
Despite all that, I also know a number of super experienced walkers who always carry GPS on walks. These are people who are more than competent enough to do it on their own. While it hasn't been enough to convert me yet, it has made me wonder if I'm being overly zealous. After all, I'm happy to use lighter packs, better sleeping bags, thermal clothing items etc.
My apologies for this stream-of-consciousness, but hopefully there are a few folks here with some interesting insights that will help me work through my conundrum, and either convert to the GPS bandwagon, or at least develop a more coherant reason for why I hate the things!

[ak83]

I agree in part with the gps issue, but mainly on relying on it for directions/navigation. I agree the skills you learn through topographical and compass navigation are invaluable.I tend to disagree with your thoughts on EPIRBS or PLBs. These can be life saving equipment. You never know when you may have an accident, fall sick or get bitten by a snake etc. If you are hours (if not days) from contact with other people or civilisation i.e. main arterial or town, EPIRBs WILL save your life.

[photohiker]

You don't need to convert to the GPS bandwagon. Its just a tool like a map or compass.

GPS is a mature technology. Like it or not, it is getting hard not to have GPS tech about you in our cars, phones, etc. Familiarity with GPS is just one of the tools available for successful navigation IMO.

Get over it. Use maps and compass and GPS.

[andrewbish]

I think you are muddying the discussion by treating a GPS (for navigation) and an EPIRB (for rescue) in the same way.

I get your argument for back-to-basics navigation and a GPS as a navigational tool is probably at the nice-to-have end of the scale.

An EPIRB, however, provides a last line of defence against the unreasonableness of the wild and and inevitability of human error. Used correctly, when the situation is dire and all alternatives have been considered, it can save lives, while making life much easier for the S&R folks. If you are heading somewhere particularly remote, I feel an EPIRB should be in the gear list.

Andrew

[Graham51]

I was brought up through the old school of map and compass and do the bulk of my navigation with that but now carry a GPS as well. On many tracks it is no more use than the map etc but in some areas such as Central Plateau Tasmania where there sometimes aren't many features and it may be clagged in the GPS can be very useful.
I was also brought up with a single skin japara tent with no floor but now use a two skin tent with the floor sewn in.
When I started walking we sometimes were lucky enough to be able to cut some bracken to keep out the cold from underneath but now use a Thermarest for warmth and comfort.
We used to light a fire to cook on but now have more modern stoves that can be lit in any conditions.
I didn't have an old sack bag with rope to put my gear in but did use an old H-frame which was nowhere near as comfortable as the modern packs.
I could continue about clothing,etc etc but my point is that the GPS is just another piece of (modern) technology. It is useful but perhaps shouldn't be completely relied on. Your batteries could go flat or they may suddenly shut down the satellite signals and, god forbid, people might need to go back to using those old methods. So, just in case, be prepared for any situation.

[JohnM]

I use a GPS in conjunction with ye olde map and compass, more because I like tech toys than anything else really. Also I find it frees me up to go off track more than I would otherwise, given that I know it's there as a backstop.

I agree that it's wise for people to not rely on tech, and to have a reasonable competency in map reading. But when you say things like 'enforcing' and 'demanding' I suspect you're getting into the territory of the zealot.

Let people do it their own way, and quietly enjoy the fact that you possess bushcraft skills that few do.

EPIRB is a whole different kettle of fish. Bust your leg deep in the wild, and no amount of bushcraft is going to save your *&%$#!. It's kinda like being against airbags and anti-lock brakes in cars. Using an EPIRB doesn't give you licence to act like an idiot... It's a safety net when things that are out of your control go horribly wrong.

[Genesis]

I always plot and plan my walks with map and compass, and thus always carry them in the field. However I also have a GPS for logging & Blogging and also they are great for back tracking if the need arises.
They also have some good apps like sunrise and set times alarm etc, So I would be in the "I like both" category but still rely on the good olde map and compass for the bulk of my navigation.

Genesis

[WarrenH]

I'm a solo traveller and I don't use an EPIRB or a Spot, nor have I ever in 40+ years of solo adventuring ... I guess I should be dead by now, my time must be up ... maybe I am dead?

I still haven't bought a bottle of purified tap water either, not once. Dead people don't need to drink.

I have smashed the screens of two GPS units in the most innocuous circumstances. Once in a shopping centre car park when it was in my pocket and I clipped the wheel guard of a box trailer while stepping aside to avoid an out of control shopping trolley person and then when a friend broke my second one by accidental hitting it with a spanner. This has let me know how fragile GPS units are around silly people. I've not smashed a paper map ... nor set one on fire.

Maybe it is safer to stay at home and buy a book ... until I can afford to be 100% safe outside. It is more considerate of others I must admit, to have a myocardial infarction on the couch in the living room watching Adventure TV ... found on the Histrionics Channel.

Warren.

[ILUVSWTAS]

Im of the younger generation of bushwalker. GPS's are awesom!!!!

[ninjapuppet]

but just for the record,
Despite the store I bought my beacon from, calling it an EPIRB, I was corrected by both AMSA and GME, that my beacon was infact a PLB and not an EPIRB.

EPIRBs are for signalling maritime distress.
PLBs are what bushwalkers use to send distress signals.
Main difference is that EPIRBS can float and remain on for 48 hours instead of the 24 hours for PLBs

Just a thought - Soldiers have to be able to navigate well and live off the land, but have always carried some form of communication for Medivacs if someone was injured.

[Maelgwn]

We always carry a GPS but very rarely use it, the only time I plan on using it is in a white out in the snow (although we can map and compass navigate in these conditions, it is too slow and inconvenient).

The other time it could be useful is facilitating a rescue (i.e. a six figure grid reference in a non-descript patch of scrub would still take a bit of searching to find people) and the odd bit of navigation in terrain with very few features (i.e. finding cave entrances/exits in flat areas).

[Lindsay]

I am a map and compass person. However I recenty bought a cheap and basic GPS on the spur of the moment. I haven't used it as yet but I will take it with me on my next trip just to see how it works. IMO things like GPS should be used as an assist to, not replacement for, navigational skills.

[ninjapuppet]

Yeh, being in cravasse country in whiteouts are a pain to navigate with a map compared to a GPS,
just like in my profile picture to the right here --------------->

This was when we were on Bonar glacier in great weather when a fog came suddenly and stayed for the rest of the day. In between the tasks of dodging cravasses, keeping correct distances between the next person, ensuring you're heading in the right direction, and keeping note of your pacing, its very easy to loose track of your location on a map when every crevasse looks the same around you. At the end of a long day when you're tired and hungry and after moving around a crevasse with no terrain to identify anything, a GPS does actually help. We had no trouble getting to our destination quickly that day, thanks to a GPS.

[sthughes]

GPS is fast and convenient, and allows navigation in zero visibility, so why not use it? Not as a replacement to a compass and general positional awareness, but as an alternative to speed things up and double check your perceived position.
As for a PLB: nothing to loose and everything to gain - so why not?

[Bronski]

This all leads me to wonder, when the humble compass came into existance, if there was a person who refused to use it and insisted you must navigate on the sun and the stars. "It doesn't point to true north, what if it breaks, etc, etc, etc" The golden rule is have a back up plan and a second check, and to the GPS this applies too. If someone walks into wilderness 100% confident on the GPS's instructions, question there attitude to everything else too!

[BarryJ]

In my opinion, it is up to each individual to decide whether they want to carry a GPS &/or PLB and to what extent they want to rely on them on a trip.

I carry both plus a map and compass but if I was on a trip with you and you tried to enforce a "no electronic gadgets" condition, you would have one less person in your party.

[ninjapuppet]

Just had this conversation with one of my mountaineering partner, and was suprised to hear that the only batteries he'll carry with him are the ones in his headlamp. He strongly opposes any form of electronic gadget that tethers him to the real world, which is the main reason he gets out there into the mountains. He believes that one puts themselves into situations they should not be in, if they carry their PLB with them. I disagree with that argument.
When / if he gets his butt in trouble, I'm sure his view will change if i my sat phone saves him.

just look at snake bites - who plans to have one? and does that mean we should not bushwalk in snake territory? I think not.

[andrewbish]

The problem, NP, with your mate's argument is that he too is relying on 'modern' technology - namely, batteries and a headlamp! And i would hazard a guess that he has some very modern climbing equipment.

As Bronski suggests it's all relative when it comes to a person's acceptable level of technology.

Equally important, I feel, is our level of tolerance of those who choose a greater/lesser level.

[north-north-west]

Both. Primarily map and compass navigation, GPS mainly for logging walks (and as a backup if I get sufficiently lost )

Used properly, a GPS can actually help newbies to learn map & compass navigation. Work position out the old way, check on the GPS. If they don't agree, work out why.

[corvus]

Grew up in Scotland using a "pocket compass" moved on to the "prismatic" both with very good OS Maps and good navigation teachers.
Fast forward to Tasmania circa 1968 and I bought a Silva Compass and pretty good Tas Maps just had to teach myself North from South again
FF once more and I bought a GPS and a Mini Sat Alert Personal EPIRB 121.5 /243MHz ,fortunately did not ever need that EPIRB and somehow I have not mastered my GPS but intend to soon but have a Solar powered Digital Compass and still carry a Silva (pity the Tas Maps are not what they used to be) but have been able to Navigate as required .
All that being said I intend buying a lightweight GPS-capable PLB as soon as I have a few spare dollars and really intend mastering my GPS which must give me an edge where safety and peace of mind for family is important ,so if an old Luddite like me is willing to address change why would an almost "beardless boy" wish to eschew modern navigation aids
corvus

[mikethepike]

First GPS. I think that this is a very relevant topic for discussion. Personally I don't use one because I mainly walk in places where I've have no need for one - whiteout conditions on the Central Plateau or the Bogong HP would be obvious exceptions but I'm prepared to wait it out. In common with other orienteers and rogainers, I probably get a lot more map and compass practice than many other bushwalkers so I generally feel no need for a GPS. (It's amazing how the top orienteers and rogainers refer to the compass much much less than the average competitor and I've seen some brilliant examples of this.) Still, I have no problems with other people in the group using GPS. My rogaining partner took a sealed GPS unit on a recent 12 hour event and it is later on interesting and instructional to follow the actual route taken particularly where we made a bad error.
With regards to maps, we are such slaves to them whereas the early explorers had a compass but no map and it didn't seem to stop them finding their way about.

EPIRB/PLBs. I have taken one on both solo and group walks in remote places and now I own the lighter and more versatile Spot unit. I wonder if we may be getting close to the time, where, to not carry some kind of PLB in even not so remote area walks might be seen as irresponsible. Think about sailing - who sails across Bass Strait or anywhere offshore these days without an EPIRB or radio transmitter? I think that with increasing numbers of older walkers in the hills, there must be a statistically greater risk of medical emergencies arising and a PLB would be important if not essential in some circumstances though a PLB can give a false sense of security. Eg, the response time will most likely still be too slow in cases of stoke or coronary occlusion where minimalist delay (minutes not an hour or more) before medical intervention is essential for a good outcome.

[FatCanyoner]

Wow, what a response. Thanks so much for everyone who has taken the time to give me their thoughts!
Firstly, I probably made a mistake bringing EPIRBS / PLB's into this. I agree that they are a whole other topic. In fact, I'll have a bit more of a think about that area and maybe do a separate post on the topic. I do get concerned when I hear stories of their abuse (like the NPWS guy who told me about the group in the Snowy Mountains in Summer who set one off, then when the chopper arrived they said it was because they were tired and wanted a lift out!) but I agree that they have a greater place than GPS. Also, given the just sit at the bottom of your pack unused, they probably don't have much impact on navigation (unless as ninjapuppet's mountaineering friend said they make you take more risks). mikethepike, you make an interesting point about what is seen as 'responsible'. I'd argue that always trying to self rescue is more responsible, but I know the authorities really like everyone to carry one. It makes their job much easier if there is a search, and by extension means less chance of someone from a rescue party also getting injured etc.
But back to the GPS's, it seems most of you use them more as a backup to map and compass, or primarily in bad conditions / difficult terrain, rather than for primary navigation. That's kind of reassuring to hear. It's also interesting because when I see every man and his dog walking with GPS's I have been assuming they have been using them as the primary navigation tool.
I also can see the points made by Maelgwn and ninjapuppet re whiteouts and crevasses. I have to admit I haven't bushwalked in those kinds of places, so haven't had to worry about it. A thick fog and rain can make things hairy enough, but I've always found map and compass enough. (That said, there was a walk a few years ago where we ran late, walked for more than an hour after dark through difficult terrain, trying to hit a very specific pass through some cliffs. I was very happy to have someone in the group with a GPS on that trip who I could yell out to every so often to confirm we were still heading in the right direction. We still used map and compass as the primary, but when you're in thick scrub at night, it is very hard to do!)
By the way ILUVSWTAS, I'm also of the younger generation. Bizarrely, it seems a lot of the gear nuts in outdoor circles are actually middle aged. (I'll leave it to others to work out why that is?)
P.S. WarrenH - sounds like you are a man after my own heart! And in answer to your question, perhaps you're not dead, you're just a zombie?
P.P.S. corvus, just because I can't grow facial hair doesn't mean I'm not a luddite!

[cdg]

GPS is just a tool.

I learnt to navigate with compasses and maps. Its a skill that every bushwalker should know. The thing I like about GPS is that it can lead to precision in determining your location.

Ive never set off or carried a PLB, but its high on my list to acquire one.

[WarrenH]

If someone walks into wilderness 100% confident on the GPS's instructions, question there attitude to everything else too!

In the US, the National Parks/US Forest Service have a statistic and a description of visitor deaths called, "Death by GPS".

"Death by GPS" sounds more far interesting and modern, than death from failure to take a map and compass.

I've had a couple of emails of disappointment from people doing the Bicentennial National Trail who have taken short cuts following Google Maps route of the BNT. Unfortunately Google Maps thinks that the old National Horse Trail is the BNT and still has sections incorrectly marked from changes made 20 years ago. Beware the electronic shortcuts. I have a GPS I like it. It has one waypoint in it that doesn't ever change HOME. I don't ever feel alone in the bush knowing that waypoint is in there. The only time the GPS gets turned on is to look at that waypoint, each evening when I'm out.

Warren.

Last edited by WarrenH on Tue 20 Sep, 2011 11:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

[photohiker]

If someone walks into wilderness 100% confident on the GPS's instructions, question there attitude to everything else too!

In the US, the National Parks/US Forest Service have a statistic and a description of visitor deaths called, "Death by GPS".

Death by GPS sounds more far interesting and modern, than death from failure to take a map and compass.

Warren.

As far as I am aware, the 'Death by GPS' scenario involves people renting cars and straying into unfamiliar and hazardous terrain due to trusting the directions given by the GPS. There have been some heartbreaking stories of it in Death Valley.

While I am sure hikers have gotten themselves into trouble with a GPS the problem in most 'death by GPS' cases is vehicle based death by stupidity. Don't forget that plenty of people who do not sufficiently understand maps and compasses have gotten themselves into trouble with them too.

A Map, a Compass, a GPS, a Sextant, knowledge of the stars, a Watch, etc, are all technologies that when sufficiently understood can help one locate where they are and in which direction they need to head to get to their desired destination. Understanding where you are now, is the piece of information most valuable to the exercise and unless we know the land like the back of our hand we must rely on technology to find out. Rail against the GPS all you like, but understand it is just another piece of tech that needs to be understood to be of any use.

Understanding this, I find it somewhat amusing that there are people here who use a map and compass who think a GPS is unacceptable.

[WarrenH]

As far as I am aware, the 'Death by GPS' scenario involves people renting cars and straying into unfamiliar and hazardous terrain due to trusting the directions given by the GPS.

One of the US sites (it would have been an MTB site or a hiking site) that I visited fairly recently had something about "Death by GPS" of a packrafter and geocacher. Walking off a cliff in the dark while looking at the GPS caused one person's death, does that count? On another of the of MTB sites, some guys in Alaska took a short cut to a road that didn't exist. They only had two days food and made it to a main road carrying their bikes, 9 days later. One of the posters made a comment that the road shown on the GPS unit, hadn't been in existence for possibly as long as 35 years. Then someone died two weeks later on the same route. A female person from Switzerland on holidays was swept under an ice shelf in a river and drowned.

I tried to do a search on the US Forest Service site a moment ago but the site is down ... "Until this site is available again, we encourage you to contact your local Forest Service office for the information you need." That is here in the ACT, that wont work.

All GPS units sold nowadays should have to display, if a fire trail is overgrown with lantana or at least come with a complimentary machete.

Warren.

Last edited by WarrenH on Tue 20 Sep, 2011 12:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[photohiker]

As far as I am aware, the 'Death by GPS' scenario involves people renting cars and straying into unfamiliar and hazardous terrain due to trusting the directions given by the GPS.

One of the US sites (it would have been an MTB site) that I visited fairly recently had something about "Death by GPS" of a packrafter and geocacher. Walking off a cliff in the dark while looking at the GPS, does that count? On another of the of MTB sites, some guys in Alaska took a short cut to a road that didn't exist. They only had two days food and made it to a main road carrying their bikes, 9 days later. One of the posters made a comment that the road shown on the GPS unit, hadn't been in existence for possibly as long as 35 years.

While I am sure hikers have gotten themselves into trouble with a GPS the problem in most 'death by GPS' cases is vehicle based death by stupidity. Don't forget that plenty of people who do not sufficiently understand maps and compasses have gotten themselves into trouble with them too.

If you look around there are plenty of errors and increasingly deliberate omissions on maps too. Google Earth can be a useful tool to check map (paper and electronic) accuracy, as is the opportunity to carry multiple maps from different sources (even google earth images if you want) on some GPSs for no extra weight. Openstreetmap for example, which is mostly built and maintained by people who have actually been there...

Its just tech. Choose a couple, understand them well for best effect.

Nuff said.

[WarrenH]

... and increasingly deliberate omissions on maps too.

I've noticed that this is happening, especially with Google Maps. Lesser used firetrails are being erased, or on named firetrails some have had the names erased in both National Parks and State Forests ... that I've noticed in my neck of the bush.

I wonder if this is in response to Google Maps having several court cases against them. Sued over deaths when people have followed GM's directions to places without thinking. One lady died when the best directions for a walking route given was on a US freeway.

Warren.

[BarryJ]

... and increasingly deliberate omissions on maps too.

I've noticed that this is happening, especially with Google Maps. Lesser used firetrails are being erased, or on named firetrails some have had the names erased in both National Parks and State Forests ... that I've noticed in my neck of the bush.

I wonder if this is in response to Google Maps having several court cases against them. Sued over deaths when people have followed GM's directions to places without thinking. One lady died when the best directions for a walking route given was on a US freeway.

Warren.

Not only Google Maps. Many old tracks are being removed from printed copies of the new editions of the TASMap series of maps. It is/has been a bone of contention for many of us for some time.

[photohiker]

Its not just Google either,

I had the opportunity to compare two versions of the Natmap Lake Eyre Topo map a little while ago. Mine was recent, bought in 2009 and the older map was from about 1975. The reduction in minor tracks and topo detail was astounding between the two versions of the same map. Others have reported similar issues in other areas, particularly in new revisions of the Tassie 1:25k maps.

Its often instructive to compare the google map to the google satellite images (and to paper maps for that matter). When I was planning for my jaunt across Scotland, I came upon a very useful site that showed the official (OS) maps against the google sat image in a split window parallel scrolling browser display. (move one map and the other moves by the same amount) Very handy for planning which cliff you are going to walk off while staring at your GPS