Bushwalking Clubs: the good, bad and the ugly

[Bush Walker]

Bushwalking has again become very popular in Australia, with many middle-aged walkers in their 50's and and 60's (the baby boomers) participating.

Most bushwalkers enjoy being a Club member, but others don't like the experience. The reasons for this are very varied:

personality
age (Gen X & Y's especially) and hence perspective and priorities
experience of the member may not be compatible with that of other members
range and difficulty of activities available may be limited
hierarchical structure of most clubs
age of other members of the club ie most will be over 50
governance and personality of Club office bearers.

Many, perhaps the vast majority, of people in this thread are not Club members and in my opinion many have misconceived ideas about what it would be like belonging to a bushwalking club. I sense an implication in some of the comments made that you only join a bushwalking club as a last resort, perhaps when you are too old to plan your own walks with "mates".

Bushwalking clubs offer many advantages over "walking with a group of mates"

someone else has usually already done the planning
there are usually walks available at a variety of levels of difficulty: from day to overnight to multi-day in the Western Arthurs
you are not "stuck' with the same group of mates and limited by their capabilities and needs
you are able to broaden your experience and skill level with the guidance of others more experienced
equipment is available to borrow
training is often available free of charge or subsidised
social activities are varied and organised for you by your hard working Committee
you will soon be walking with more than one group of "mates"

My "obsession" with Clubs is that, as a member of several, I fear for their sustainability as the "baby boomers" (currently 48-66) pass through and there is no one to replace them.

Last edited by Bush Walker on Fri 06 Jan, 2012 4:21 pm, edited 3 times in total.

[photohiker]

Bushwalking Clubs have again become very popular in Australia

What did you actually mean when you typed 'have again become very popular' ? Do you have a source or data that confirms this statement?

[Bush Walker]

Do you have a source or data that confirms this statement?

Please go to the thread Does your Club need more Gen X & Gen Y members? for this data

Last edited by Bush Walker on Fri 06 Jan, 2012 3:25 pm, edited 3 times in total.

[photohiker]

Do you have a source or data that confirms this statement?

An interesting set of figures is participation in bushwalking by age group

15–17 18–24 25–34 35–44 45–54 55–64 over All
Bush walking **0.8 *23.5 71.3 88.8 118.4 71.9 37.5 412.3 (thousands)
Bush walking **0.1 *1.1 2.3 2.9 4.0 2.9 1.4 2.4 (%)

Participation in bushwalking

Organised only Non-organised
Organised and non-organised
Bush walking 8.3 6.2 85.3 100.0 (%)

So history tells us that participation in bushwalking peaks at ages 45-54.

We also have anecdotal evidence that X/Y gen prefer informal walks with mates outside of club structures.

Why do you think that it is a problem that X/Y Gen are not currently participating in BW clubs as much as baby boomers? Do you have any reason to believe that when they reach 45-54 they will not be interested in bushwalking, and not join bushwalking clubs?

You can do tables in the wiki, but not so much in the forum. Maybe the best option would be to take a screenshot of excel and post the graphic...

[Bush Walker]

This post which quoted ABS stats has been transferred to the Does your Club need more Gen X & Gen Y members? thread.

[Bush Walker]

See also

Value of bushwalking clubs started by mikethepike

[davidmorr]

So history tells us that participation in bushwalking peaks at ages 45-54.

It would be interesting to know if this was the case 20 years ago. Or was the peak age then 25-35?

In other words, is it one generation that is interested in bushwalking and has carried that interest through their lives?

[Bush Walker]

It would be interesting to know if this was the case 20 years ago. Or was the peak age then 25-35?
In other words, is it one generation that is interested in bushwalking and has carried that interest through their lives?

Does anyone who has been a long term club member have this data?

[Bush Walker]

I'd like to thank the large number of forum members (40+), who have spent time and, in some cases a significant amount, to contribute to the discussion we are having about the ageing of bushwalking clubs and the possible solutions. I also appreciate the contributions from those who are not club members, but have still made useful comments.

There are three other active threads, two of which contain polls, to which you might like to contribute.

Does your Club need more Gen X & Gen Y members? [21/339]
How Does Your Club Use Social Media? VOTE IN THE POLL POLL [10/216]
Is your Club Size Diminishing and your Membership Ageing? POLL [183/2615]

Over this weekend I intend to spend some time looking back over these and will place some sort of summary on the wiki including the graphs, under clubs.

If you have not already "voted" in either of the polls, please do so as the data is fairly scarce at the moment.

[davidmorr]

We also have anecdotal evidence that X/Y gen prefer informal walks with mates outside of club structures.

I'm not sure that is entirely true. The local university club is populated by mostly young people. It may just be that there are not many appropriate clubs for them, ie, clubs comprising mainly young people if that is what they want. Hence they are forced to bushwalk with mates.

[davidmorr]

It would be interesting to know if this was the case 20 years ago. Or was the peak age then 25-35?
In other words, is it one generation that is interested in bushwalking and has carried that interest through their lives?

Does anyone who has been a long term club member have this data?

I have no actual data, but I have been in my club since 1984, and the average age was definitely younger. Maybe not 25-35, but certainly 30-45.

And of course for people not in clubs, the average age was their age at the time

[photohiker]

We also have anecdotal evidence that X/Y gen prefer informal walks with mates outside of club structures.

I'm not sure that is entirely true. The local university club is populated by mostly young people. It may just be that there are not many appropriate clubs for them, ie, clubs comprising mainly young people if that is what they want. Hence they are forced to bushwalk with mates.

By Anecdotal I was referring to recent comments in these threads.

Uni is an exception. When I was at Uni, I joined a bunch of clubs because it was a useful thing to do (apart from study) C&S could be applied to for funding for activities, so if you wanted some bushwalk equipment, you could get it. We had a great Nikon in the photo club until someone walked off with it. (no, not me, I was an Olympus user back then, Nikons were too heavy and too establishment to interest me) The point is that funding skewed Uni club membership back then, not sure that it is still the case?

[Bush Walker]

We also have anecdotal evidence that X/Y gen prefer informal walks with mates outside of club structures.

I'm not sure that is entirely true. The local university club is populated by mostly young people. It may just be that there are not many appropriate clubs for them, ie, clubs comprising mainly young people if that is what they want. Hence they are forced to bushwalk with mates.

This lack of younger walking groups is the reason some have implemented "clubs within clubs" to provide the opportunity to walk with eg an all female group or under 40's

[Bush Walker]

I have no actual data, but I have been in my club since 1984, and the average age was definitely younger. Maybe not 25-35, but certainly 30-45.

It could be that the average age of your Club 30 years ago was 25-35-45 due the fact this was the baby boomers coming through and hence the largest demographic. It may have nothing to do at all with a perceived swing away from Clubs by younger bushwalkers.

Some membership data from 30 years ago would be useful!

[davidmorr]

It could be that the average age of your Club 30 years ago was 25-35-45 due the fact this was the baby boomers coming through and hence the largest demographic. It may have nothing to do at all with a perceived swing away from Clubs by younger bushwalkers.

Some membership data from 30 years ago would be useful!

When I joined in 1983, almost 30 years ago, the membership was quite small, and all but a couple were in the 15-30 age range. There were only a few members (1 or 2) still around that had been there when the club started in the 1960s. See my post in your original thread for a profile of the club over its 50 year history:

http://bushwalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=8399&start=90#p111845

[Liamy77]

It may be that 20 to 30-ish age group has a higher amount of young "boat anchors" (ie kids) that they are not walking with as much too.....




on another thought:

I am making the assumption that your club is in trouble of failling Bush Walker - due to the many very similar posts and threads you are making regarding the shrinking and aging of clubs in your subjective experience.... what club are you a member in? What services does it offer?
What rules / policies does it use that you think are deterring new members from joining or staying once joined? and what do you think could help fix this problem with the clubs management?

[Bush Walker]

I am making the assumption that your club is in trouble of failling Bush Walker

Wrong assumption. My interest is much broader than just my bushwalking Clubs, which by the way have the typical demographic discussed, but are far from failing.

The problems discussed apply to most community groups and my interest has evolved from a previous job where I visited many of these organisations.

[Liamy77]

So the same questions applied to these clubs as a whole then - what are you finding ?

[pancake]

I fear for their sustainability as the "baby boomers" (currently 48-66) pass through and there is no one to replace them.

Why do you think that it is a problem that X/Y Gen are not currently participating in BW clubs as much as baby boomers? Do you have any reason to believe that when they reach 45-54 they will not be interested in bushwalking, and not join bushwalking clubs?

Was just going to post this but photohiker beat me to it..
Is there anything to suggest that GenX/Y/iGen/insertbuzzwordhere won't end up joining the clubs once they are in their late 40's - 60's ?

I think your list of the advantages clubs offer over wwagom will apply to bushwalkers in their late 40's to 60's, regardless of whether they grew up with computers or not?

[davidmorr]

The problems discussed apply to most community groups and my interest has evolved from a previous job where I visited many of these organisations.

I have asked before, but can you give some examples of community organisations (not necessarily bushwalking clubs) that have been revived by using social media? And was social media the only thing they did, or were there other changes at the same time?

[photohiker]

The problems discussed apply to most community groups and my interest has evolved from a previous job where I visited many of these organisations.

I have asked before, but can you give some examples of community organisations (not necessarily bushwalking clubs) that have been revived by using social media? And was social media the only thing they did, or were there other changes at the same time?

I think this is a fair call. BushWalker has inspired and 'managed' quite a lot of discussion on this subject on this forum, but it seems that rather than share his personal experiences, he is mining the forum for ideas. I'm saying 'seems' here, I don't know, only BushWalker can tell us.

[Ent]

Hi

I think it is fair for a poster to ask questions and seek input from others and not have their motives unduly questioned unless of course there is viral marketing going on. If someone has that view then they should state it to the same level of proof that they demand of others I see more than enough referrals to pay sites such as backpacking light to ignore comments that direct me to them. Anyway taking this thread on face value here I go.

Ageing with clubs is huge issue at council levels with many clubs folding and the remaining members looking for some organisation to manage the assets. It can be community halls, instruments of brass bands, or other stuff. Part of the problem is Australia's mode age is increasing. Another is clubs accumulate clutter that is very important to some members but is rather onerous to hand on. I do get rather tired of people complaining that nobody is doing the newsletter, or organising a social calendar, etc. Generally in my experience it is the complainers that are people that spent years knocking the people that did that job. If you do not like how something is done then put your hand up or shut up is my firm view.

What gets missed is the time pressures placed on the young. They work part-time jobs and nowadays they are generally seven days a week seven to twelve or even more hours. Also more firms are working Saturdays plus Sunday that never did or weird hours to fit in with the likes of Coles so it is not just their employees that lose fixed hours. There use to be a time when a young lad's team made it to the grand final work would work around their training sessions. Not nowadays with most firms. Curious, we see advertising appealing to family values yet those firms are less than family friendly in the hours and times that they demand from "loyal" employees. This means young people can not commit to weekends or set time. Forced into a way of ad hoc spur of the moment planning which the modern technology helps them survive and maintain some social life.

So to get the young first understand their paradigm and do not burden them down with clutter of the past. They want to go walking, not rabbit on about other things. When they are older then they might have established work patterns and less "energy" for the extreme walks so more time to run the administrative and social side. Also, young tend to prefer to associate with their own age group so clubs tend "grow up" together.

If there is an easy answer to this "problem" then most clubs would like to read of successful solutions. Personally I think time pressures on the young with longer years at school and training mean they simply do not have the time that the older generation had. Plus modern communications methods means fixed dates need not apply. Get a few together and go seams to be mode of operation. As long as people are getting out in the bush safely that is all that matters.

Cheers

[Bush Walker]

Thanks photohiker, davidmorr, pancake, liamy77, Ent and others

I have posted a detailed response to your question on the thread How Does Your Club Use Social Media? VOTE IN THE POLL as I think this is the most appropriate place.

I have asked before, but can you give some examples of community organisations (not necessarily bushwalking clubs) that have been revived by using social media? And was social media the only thing they did, or were there other changes at the same time?

This was thread was set up to discuss the good and bad about bushwalking clubs in the context of Why would I want to join a Club?

[Bush Walker]

Ageing with clubs is huge issue at council levels with many clubs folding ...... time pressures placed on the young.This means young people can not commit to weekends or set time. ......young tend to prefer to associate with their own age group .....

Thanks for your well considered input to the discussion which supports many of the ideas posted elsewhere.

[Bush Walker]

There is a new thread to help us get some more information about Forum members and perhaps put our discussions in context.

POLL: Your Age Range and Years of Club Membership.

You don't need to give your exact age and can vote anonymously, so give it a go!

[mattmacman]

Hey guys, I thought that I might speak for gen Y to some degree here as you can talk about data all you want but it wont give you an accurate idea of the situation with younger people, these are more so my thoughts but I think that they are accurate to some degree. To be honest I read the first few comments then I thought this was just a bunch of people rabbiting on about how young people dont do anything right and then I read Ent's comment and i couldn't agree more.

Myself
Im 15 and Im into gaming, watching movies and sleeping.... LOTS of sleeping, these holidays i've been going to bed at 2:30 in the morning then waking at 1:00 in the avo, BUT I also love things like fishing, boating, hiking and just being outdoors with friends.

My Friends
My friends are mostly the same, yes there can be the exception of someone who just does nothing all day and watches tv but on the other extreme there might be somebody summiting a mountain at a young age or competing in national running events, my point? Those people who do nothing are in most cases a minority, and maybe in some circles it may take younger people years to discover the beauty of the outdoors but im fortunate this is not my case. I find if i want to go bushwalking with friends (the sort who are happy to be in the outdoors in moderation but dont find it natural to them) I have to be NICE to them and help them into the whole outdoors thing. I find when I have been on trips with older people ( and this is just on SOME trips, but it dosent take much to discourage a young person) a young person might complain about something trivial and get bashed on by a older person, I was on my first hike on the Bibbulmun with my school and one of the older people looking after us just made it hell for the younger people there and i could just tell that they weren't going to be hiking again anytime soon, my brother was extremely discouraged a swell and It has taken me a long time to get him to go on another hike. If i go on a hike with friends I give them very specific instructions on what to bring as to make it more comfortable so that they might like to go again.

I know im sort of rambling now but Its hard to express these things over a computer, all the older guys and gals on this forum seem really nice! Im not saying anyone here is evil! But with young people you do really have to be patient or they will lose interest easily.

[wayno]

the outdoor retail industry don't help, they don't make it affordable for young people to get into the sport, ironically to get the most affordable gear you often have to go hunting outside of the outdoor retail shops. any young person going into a shop today must have near heart failure at the price of everything,
gone are a lot of the basic rough and ready gear we used decades ago. the bush shirt has given way to expensive merino. also young people can easily feel they don't fit in if they have to buy cheaper or older gear than other people, as it is when i was young all my spare money went getting decent tramping gear that my parents couldnt afford. it's a big commitment

nz in the seventies and eighties was a different country to the one it is now, as mentioned theres a lot more employers wanting people to work on weekends now, that wasnt the case in yesteryear, someone commented to me they have watched harrier clubs die since the introduction of weekend shopping
there are more sports now that barely existed or didnt exist decades ago, theres a lot more disciplines to choose from now in the outdoors and the casualisation of these sports allowing you to participate in one off events has taken away fit energetic young people into other sports that grab their attention and imagination more,
mountain biking, multi sport, adventure racing to name some of those sports. thats where their mates are so thats where they go. theres some really smart organised people running those sports, they know how to market themselves to attract the new young people along.
the young get fired up by fast paced sports on tv that grab their interest.
ever wonder why the west indies arent the best at cricket any more? exposure to american tv in the windies diverted the kids into sports other than cricket,
i've seen one club take off through facebook, redirecting younger people away from a main club, it was a less structured setup
just observing clubs it's obvious that there are far less young people in them now. i'm 43 and am often the youngest person at club meetings....
i've seen clubs that do little to nothing to encourage young people. they turn up and don't come back, they arent that interested in putting on trips for them that meet their needs and lack of fitness, some clubs are older people going as hard as they can as long as they can while they still can. theres little focus on the needs of the budding tramper, I used to turn up to do easy tramps and was told i had to do the fit ones like i was some kind of sissy at my age for not doing the harder tramps, which i would actually do sometimes and had proven i could outwalk almost all of the people in the club but that wasnt enough for them, but i also like easier tramps....
the attitude of a fair few of the older trampers can be off putting, they can be pretty tough minded and too much for a lot of younger people.
frankly to a certain extent tramping has a lot of old hard bitten people in the clubs running things their way,
other sports look at more how they can do things the way the new comers want.... they encourage everyone no matter what they want to do.
i remember reading about peter snell the first time arthur lydiard got him to do his toughest training circuit through the hills. peter had to walk back , he couldnt run it all.
he got back to arthurs place and couldnt stop himself breaking down in tears at the end.... but no one put him down, he was encouraged... i wonder what would have happened if people had poured scorn on him then, would he have kept trying to train hard? for those that don't recognise the name peter snell won three olympic gold medals in the 8 and 15 hundred meters and several world records in the 60's, not even john walker has run an 800m faster than him...
everyone has to start somewhere, and how you treat those starters makes all the difference to how your club will thrive or otherwise.
given people spend so much time together tramping and you can't really get away from each other sometimes for days on end, relating well to each other is critical to retaining young people in the sport. and given how much less free time young people have now given the need for students to work to pay for higher student fees, it probably takes more effort today than ever to compete for young peoples time in bushwalking. so what young person starting out in tramping will invest what little money they have buying tramping gear to get into a pastime with people they don't like and who often have more money to travel and afford better gear than them.
clubs need to think about initiatives for younger people. selling them gear as cheaply as possible so they can tramp in the first place.
i personally had to quit tramping for years because to make a living i couldnt find enough time to get into the bush , and often didnt have the spare money to travel very far.

Last edited by wayno on Fri 13 Jan, 2012 3:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

[mattmacman]

Wayno, you couldn't be more right my friend, i think the points you outlined were a more 'refined' version of what I was trying to say =) Iv'e been on holidays for a while and my brain is starting to melt away, then comes year 11 =( AND NO ONE LIKES WORKING WEEKENDS! Also Wayno if you dont mind my asking what part of NZ are you from, my Dad's family are all over the place!

[wayno]

Auckland. (gotta work where you can get work)
grew up in wellington. (tramping mad city)
ironically most of my overnight tramping recently has been in the south of the south island...

[Liamy77]

I am making the assumption that your club is in trouble of failling Bush Walker

Wrong assumption. My interest is much broader than just my bushwalking Clubs, which by the way have the typical demographic discussed, but are far from failing.

The problems discussed apply to most community groups and my interest has evolved from a previous job where I visited many of these organisations.

But you still havn't answered ANY of my queries?? why the one way information traffic??