Ultralight Stove System?

[DannyS]

Trail designs always reply promptly to any queries, and their customer service is excellent.
Have fun!
Sounds like you're well on the way to a beautiful obsession

Gee Thanks I had a brief email exchange with Rand from Trail Designs, didn't actually expect a reply till tomorrow, after answering a couple of questions I received this message, "1:00 in the morning, going to bed now".
Obviously very dedicated to what they do!

[rcaffin]

I wonder if Roger can supply his stove sans-burner head? That way you can just buy a FMS-300T and swap the burner head between the bases as required.

I have only 1 or 2 FMS-116T stoves left. The stoves from here on will all be with FMS-300 burners. If you want to move the burner head from my winter stove system back to the upright summer base, contact me. Please note: I am working hard, but there are a few parts left to produce before I can supply. I'm trying!

Cheers
roger@backpackinglight.com

[madmacca]

The main problem with gas stoves is not so much the burner, but there is a significant weight penalty in the metal cannisters required to hold the pressure. A 230 g cannister weighs over 100 grams even when empty.

From a weekend trip, the cat can metho stove is probably as light as you can go. [url]andrewskurka.com/2011/how-to-make-a-fancy-feast-alcohol-stove[/url]

For longer trips (eg 5 days plus), the greater energy density of gas works out lighter overall, even after allowing for the cannister weight. Quite where you make the trade-off will depend on how much cooking you do.

Given they are pretty much free to make and cheap to run, the cat can stove deserves a place in your gear cupboard for shorter trips. Esbit is also compelling weight-wise, but the fuel is more expensive.

[ULWalkingPhil]

The main problem with gas stoves is not so much the burner, but there is a significant weight penalty in the metal cannisters required to hold the pressure. A 230 g cannister weighs over 100 grams even when empty.

From a weekend trip, the cat can metho stove is probably as light as you can go. [url]andrewskurka.com/2011/how-to-make-a-fancy-feast-alcohol-stove[/url]

For longer trips (eg 5 days plus), the greater energy density of gas works out lighter overall, even after allowing for the cannister weight. Quite where you make the trade-off will depend on how much cooking you do.

Given they are pretty much free to make and cheap to run, the cat can stove deserves a place in your gear cupboard for shorter trips. Esbit is also compelling weight-wise, but the fuel is more expensive.

I agree, the gas stoves are not heavy, its the container that carries the fuel.

I been wanting to make one of those fancy feast stoves, but not sure which container to use.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[Strider]

I been wanting to make one of those fancy feast stoves, but not sure which container to use.

100g tuna tin?

[Franco]

I made several types ,most using a tuna can.
Experiment with the holes, position and quantity .
I used an office hole puncher for that.

[Supertramp]

I made a Pressurized Jet Alcohol Stove from designs online. It requires preheating to get the methylated spirits or alcohol to turn into a gas, but once lit it is said to possibly use less fuel. I use a 10c piece to cover the filler holes in the middle.

The 10c piece weighs almost as much as the stove itself, the whole setup weighs around 18grams (includes a stand for the stove as well).

[Supertramp]

Information & designs for lightweight stoves: http://zenstoves.net/Stoves.htm

Enjoy.

[icefest]

the whole setup weighs around 18grams (includes a stand for the stove as well).

If that is still too heavy you can make it from a red bull can. (joke)

All things aside, these stoves are great (I use them for overnight trips) but they release a large amount of CO - avoid inside cooking.

[Don R]

An interesting set of posts, I find that a gas canister plus 85 gram Outer Limits burner is preferable to most alternatives. As for the stove fetish, I know the problem. My gear closet has an Optimus, Whisperlite, Primus Gravity Multi Fuel, MSR Internationale, various canister stoves (including MSR Firefly),three Trangias, and a miniature local made metho stove. On one occasion after a weekend walk the wife cleaned up the closet and asked me if I really needed the six stoves there, of course I replied not mentioning the two or three I still had in the car. But for the lightest (and most fragile ?) stove check this out - http://www.outdoortrailgear.com/feature ... afety-top/

[Orion]

The main problem with gas stoves is not so much the burner, but there is a significant weight penalty in the metal cannisters required to hold the pressure. A 230 g cannister weighs over 100 grams even when empty.

The empties are something around 130g.

A careful stove operator could use a small PET soda bottle instead of a steel canister. A PET bottle is more than strong enough to handle the pressure. Some care would have to be exercised in fabricating a lightweight but sturdy hose connection to the top of the plastic bottle. The biggest danger (quite obvious) would be in placing the bottle close enough to the flame to melt the plastic. The second danger would be that a poorly constructed connection would fail. Finally, the hassle involved in creating this, taking the extra care during use, and also the filling and purging of the bottle would almost certainly outweigh (pun intended) the "wow so cool" UL geek factor achieved. But it could be done.

[ULWalkingPhil]

The main problem with gas stoves is not so much the burner, but there is a significant weight penalty in the metal cannisters required to hold the pressure. A 230 g cannister weighs over 100 grams even when empty.

The empties are something around 130g.

A careful stove operator could use a small PET soda bottle instead of a steel canister. A PET bottle is more than strong enough to handle the pressure. Some care would have to be exercised in fabricating a lightweight but sturdy hose connection to the top of the plastic bottle. The biggest danger (quite obvious) would be in placing the bottle close enough to the flame to melt the plastic. The second danger would be that a poorly constructed connection would fail. Finally, the hassle involved in creating this, taking the extra care during use, and also the filling and purging of the bottle would almost certainly outweigh (pun intended) the "wow so cool" UL geek factor achieved. But it could be done.

Why would anyone want to do this, when there are perfectly acceptable alternatives out there? Sounds crazy to me and very dangerous and I don't like the term UL geek you have mentioned here.

[Orion]

A careful stove operator could use a small PET soda bottle instead of a steel canister....

Why would anyone want to do this, when there are perfectly acceptable alternatives out there? Sounds crazy to me and very dangerous and I don't like the term UL geek you have mentioned here.

Phil, the biggest weight penalty with a canister stove is the empty canister itself. In an ideal world we'd have ultralight refillable canisters made out of carbon fiber or titanium or something. But these are probably not going to materialize anytime soon. So for someone interested in using a gas stove and minimizing the weight (see Roger's remote stove for example) the next logical step is to reduce the fattest remaining piece of the puzzle. I thought of using a PET bottle because it would be about as light as one could imagine and still be super strong. Obviously such an item will never be sold commercially but I don't think it would be that dangerous if you were careful to keep it away from the flame.

The term UL geek bugs you? Sorry, I didn't mean to offend. I'm a UL geek and I know you are too but we can call it something else if you like. How about ultralight bushwalking gear enthusiast?

[ULWalkingPhil]

A careful stove operator could use a small PET soda bottle instead of a steel canister....

Why would anyone want to do this, when there are perfectly acceptable alternatives out there? Sounds crazy to me and very dangerous and I don't like the term UL geek you have mentioned here.

Phil, the biggest weight penalty with a canister stove is the empty canister itself. In an ideal world we'd have ultralight refillable canisters made out of carbon fiber or titanium or something. But these are probably not going to materialize anytime soon. So for someone interested in using a gas stove and minimizing the weight (see Roger's remote stove for example) the next logical step is to reduce the fattest remaining piece of the puzzle. I thought of using a PET bottle because it would be about as light as one could imagine and still be super strong. Obviously such an item will never be sold commercially but I don't think it would be that dangerous if you were careful to keep it away from the flame.

The term UL geek bugs you? Sorry, I didn't mean to offend. I'm a UL geek and I know you are too but we can call it something else if you like. How about ultralight bushwalking gear enthusiast?

Hi Orion, it's great to see another UL enthusiast here. When I read your posting it bought back a lot of bad experiences I had here a couple months back. I'm still feeling a bit sensitive over what had happened. It's all explained in my PM I just sent to you. Sorry about that.

[icefest]

In an ideal world we'd have ultralight refillable canisters made out of carbon fiber or titanium or something. But these are probably not going to materialize anytime soon. So for someone interested in using a gas stove and minimizing the weight (see Roger's remote stove for example) the next logical step is to reduce the fattest remaining piece of the puzzle. I thought of using a PET bottle because it would be about as light as one could imagine and still be super strong. Obviously such an item will never be sold commercially but I don't think it would be that dangerous if you were careful to keep it away from the flame.

I can see this working with butane, considering that it is possible to store butane in plastic containers (BIC lighters).
Using Rogers remote stove in combination with butane sounds dangerous but possible, at least in temperate seasons.

I know there have been some experimental fibreglass LPG cylinders for home/RV use, they were around 20-40% lighter. (LPG is, AFAIR, mostly propane)
The technology does exist but I imagine the cost is prohibitive and safety tests are complicated.
Shall we split this into a new topic?

[Orion]

That's okay, Phil. I forgot about that internet forum drama you were involved in as I missed most of it.

To be fair, "geek" might be construed to be offensive.
According to the late writer Kurt Vonnegut, a "geek" is someone who bites the bubbles of his own bathtub farts.

[Orion]

I can see this working with butane, considering that it is possible to store butane in plastic containers (BIC lighters).
Using Rogers remote stove in combination with butane sounds dangerous but possible, at least in temperate seasons.

A 20/80 (by weight) propane/isobutane mixture would reach a gauge pressure of about 8.5 bar at 50°C. I once pumped up a PET bottle to 8 bar with air and it was fine. And I've seen burst tests ("water rocketeers" do these) where small PET bottles burst well above 10 bar. So I think it would be okay, even with a propane/isobutane mix, provided one is careful not to expose the bottle to high temperatures like could happen if you left one in a car on a hot day. At 30°C the gauge pressure would be under 5 bar. Some time ago I did several amateur scientist gas experiments and I just ran the liquid fuel through a couple of meters of ordinary vinyl tubing. At room temperature the 3 bar gauge pressure of a brand new canister was not an issue.

I'm not sure it's worth starting a new thread since nobody is really going to do this.

[icefest]

Permeability seems like not too much of an issue: http://www.plasticseurope.org/Documents ... -EN-v1.pdf
At 50°C butane has a vapor pressure of 5 bar. So, while theoretically possible, I'm too scared to try.

[icefest]

Sorry about the double post - can't edit.

You can get fiberglass cylinders, they weigh about half of the weight of the gas (@5L)
All we need to do is convince them to make 200ml versions.

[simonm]

I have ordered this http://www.tatogear.com/product/ab-13-hybrid-alcohol-wick-stove/ and will do a review when I get it. It looks very nicely engineered which appeals to the bowerbird part of me . Weighs in at 16grams and is extremely compact, which is what I was looking for.

Disclaimer: I have entered into business discussions with Bryan at Tato gear, this will be dependant on my findings on the stove.

[Lindsay]

The main problem with gas stoves is not so much the burner, but there is a significant weight penalty in the metal cannisters required to hold the pressure. A 230 g cannister weighs over 100 grams even when empty.

The empties are something around 130g.

A careful stove operator could use a small PET soda bottle instead of a steel canister. A PET bottle is more than strong enough to handle the pressure. Some care would have to be exercised in fabricating a lightweight but sturdy hose connection to the top of the plastic bottle. The biggest danger (quite obvious) would be in placing the bottle close enough to the flame to melt the plastic. The second danger would be that a poorly constructed connection would fail. Finally, the hassle involved in creating this, taking the extra care during use, and also the filling and purging of the bottle would almost certainly outweigh (pun intended) the "wow so cool" UL geek factor achieved. But it could be done.

Sounds good in the right hands, but I could see it ending in tears in far too many cases to be practical.

[Orion]

At 50°C butane has a vapor pressure of 5 bar. So, while theoretically possible, I'm too scared to try.

That's absolute pressure. At sea level you'd see only 4 bar and on top of Australian's highest point it would be about 4.3 bar.

And yes, you should be scared of pressurized flammable liquids in containers not designed to hold them when you have a flame nearby.

[Orion]

A careful stove operator could use a small PET soda bottle instead of a steel canister...

Sounds good in the right hands, but I could see it ending in tears in far too many cases to be practical.

You're right. The same could be said of extreme ultralight tents and clothing. In the wrong hands it can be bad.

Hypothermia is slower and less dramatic than an exploding fuel bottle but I for one fear the former a lot more than the latter. I'll carry a rain jacket in fine weather just in case but would contemplate a plastic gas bottle in order to save 100g.

[icefest]

I'm not too sure on the hypothermia vs burns issue. I know which one I'd rather die of.
Thinking a bit more about modifying a pet bottle, I can think of ways to create a decent seal, but finding the right connector for the stove could be a bit more difficult.

I would want to test every bottle I use. (I was thinking, 10bar with ten cycles or so, one involving leaving it in there for a month)
Safety could be improved with the use of a 50cm tube/pipe so that the bottle can sit downwind, with some rocks inbetween. It would still be lighter than a steel canister.

[Orion]

I didn't mean that I'd rather be burned. But I can take steps to minimize that possibility whereas I can't control nor consistently predict the weather.

If you feel the need to build a bomb shelter for your plastic fuel bottle then maybe it's not a good idea for you.

I think that if you prevent the bottle from overheating and you protect it from the flame the risk mostly devovles into avoiding leaks and breaches due to a faulty connection. The fear is that somehow the bottle will explode like a bomb but unless you let it get very hot I don't believe this will happen. The pressure is not that great at normal operating temperatures and the amount of heat necessary to vaporize a canister full of fuel is not insignificant. In the event of a major breach in the bottle this heat has to come from the air and I don't think there's enough heat readily available to create a dangerous explosion.

If you have a stove where you can remove the burner and jet try this fun experiment: Screw the stove (without the burner and jet) onto a canister. Go outside and invert the canister over top of a shot glass. Open the valve. Now fill the shotglass with fuel.

The fuel will stay there exposed to the air for a long time (minutes) unless you warm it up.

[icefest]

Sorry I misread your statement.

Not so much bomb shelter as keeping any leaks far, far away from the flame.
I'm worried about a leak catching and melting the plastic bottle. I might use a shorter lead once I've tested it a bit more, but at first that safety margin will stay.

Let's put a valve on the bottle too: http://puu.sh/4pf1b.png

[Mark F]

Camping Gaz do make some lighter butane/propane cartridges but they are not available in Australia. Not suitable for upright stoves but could easily be adapted for remote canister stoves.
http://www.campingaz.com/c-608-diy-cartridges.aspx

[KANANGRABOYD]

I have ordered this http://www.tatogear.com/product/ab-13-hybrid-alcohol-wick-stove/ and will do a review when I get it. It looks very nicely engineered which appeals to the bowerbird part of me . Weighs in at 16grams and is extremely compact, which is what I was looking for.

Disclaimer: I have entered into business discussions with Bryan at Tato gear, this will be dependant on my findings on the stove.

Nice but their other $10 stove - give me a few days...I can make exactly the same stove.
As far as I know, Tetkobas stoves are the best so far....
If you are gonna waste $35 on a stove, seriously just make a penny stove - it will work the same and cost nothing - a can of coke and bacardi will do it

[simonm]

I have ordered this http://www.tatogear.com/product/ab-13-hybrid-alcohol-wick-stove/ and will do a review when I get it. It looks very nicely engineered which appeals to the bowerbird part of me . Weighs in at 16grams and is extremely compact, which is what I was looking for.

Disclaimer: I have entered into business discussions with Bryan at Tato gear, this will be dependant on my findings on the stove.

Nice but their other $10 stove - give me a few days...I can make exactly the same stove.
As far as I know, Tetkobas stoves are the best so far....
If you are gonna waste $35 on a stove, seriously just make a penny stove - it will work the same and cost nothing - a can of coke and bacardi will do it

I like the design so why not buy it. Everyone likes different things.

[corvus]

Wowsers !!?? a wheel reinvention perhaps ??
I personally will stick to the true and tested
corvus