Trail runners vs Tassie conditions - thoughts?

[Tortoise]

Goretex, which is OK for Tassie and the Aust Alps, but was a major mistake on the northern stuff.
The toe covering issue is, I think, more due to the odd shape of my big toes (due to past fractures) than anything else. Will be trying to patch that up before it gets any worse.

Good to know. I'll check them out, and even if they don't fit my foot, it'll give me a better idea of what I can get away with when I'm not on a highway.

Re the Gortex - a friend had a disaster with them in a particularly hot spell in Tassie. She ended up with huge blood blisters on the soles of her feet, and she had to pull out of the walk. They've been excellent every other time, but I'll certainly be aware of the heat issue.

[damodamod]

I wore volleys on the South Coast walk and Mt Anne loop in december 2012. I had no problems at all with them, infact they were the best choice considering the depth of the mud everywhere. Your feet need to be used to them though.

[Dolerite Walker]

one of the guided Tas walks I would like to do in the future appears to have a no boots no walk policy.

Interesting. The official line on bushwalking footwear from many sources is "sturdy boots for ankle support". It's not as simple as that though. For one thing, high cut footwear actually restrict movement of the ankle. Good to protect the ankle, some might say, but it is a joint and it's meant to move. Boots can actually create a false sense of security for an inexperienced walker, making a rolled ankle more likely.

Horses for courses really. Boots for snake protection and when haste is not a priority, runners for speed, weight saving and when wet feet are inevitable.

[Joomy]

one of the guided Tas walks I would like to do in the future appears to have a no boots no walk policy.

Boots can actually create a false sense of security for an inexperienced walker, making a rolled ankle more likely.

I have the same feeling. When I wore boots I used to clomp around and just put my foot anywhere, trusting that it was rigid and supportive enough to save me from injury or falling. But I always felt disconnected from the ground and that I was placing a little too much faith in my footwear. With lighter, more agile shoes it is totally different. I can't just stomp around and have to pay more attention to where I am going, but the lighter shoes make that much easier and I feel more in tune with the ground. I'm not sure I would ever walk in volleys, but a fairly sturdy pair of trail shoes does the trick.

On a related note I saw today that Rebel sport are selling New Balance 610v4 trail runners for $99.95. I am very tempted to get a pair, especially seeing as they are 2E width.

[slparker]

I've read a few academic pieces on footwear recently and a recent article in new Scientist examining contemporary research into footwear made the point that (traditional) rigid footwear acts as a splint on the longitudinal and transverse arches of the foot - essentially serving to atrophy the muscles of the foot somewhat.
The foot will adapt quickly to whatever stressors are placed upon it and training in more flexible footwear will quickly see a return of flexibility, strength and endurance of the soft tissues of the foot.
The lesson for this thread?
Trail runners are fine if your foot is adapted to being loaded whilst wearing flexible footwear. The bonus? They're lighter. A high ankle does nothing for sprain protection, that is a myth - but of course might protect against rock pinching and snake bite.
After retraining my feet in minimalist footwear for the last few months I cannot stand wearing my stiff soled boots now. I've gone completely to flexible boots - and the lower (soled) the better. I can rockhop on the balls of my feet with a 15kg pack without pain and with better proprioception and balance than before - what's not to love?
I have nothing against people wearing ultra-stiff leather boots but they're just splints for weak feet. I'd only go that route again if I was doing something specific like via ferrata or doing lots of scrambling or edging around rocks.
I'm not convinced that there is anything specific to walking in tassy that makes trail runners impractical for those that are used to them. I've made this point before: for 30000 years the aborigines didn't wear scarpa's, they wore nothing and there's nowhere that they didn't go.

[Whits]

I switched over to trail runners a few years back, after going from a heavy boot to Merrel Moabs and the lighter mid cuts. I use the Salomon XA Pro 3D Gortex as the uppers are quite tough. You can pick them up a lot cheaper than the retail price, quite often as they have lots of colour changes.
I just walked 1000 km on the Te Araroa in them which has some crazy terrain as well as road walking and they handle it all no worries, they are still in okay nick and Ill use them as everyday shoes and get a new pair for hiking. My last pair did 1000km on the Bibb track and came out looking very good. I find I need a size up in trail runners to hike in compared to the ones I run in. Helps with blisters and from toes hitting the end of the shoe.

[headwerkn]

This is an old thread, but I thought I'd touch base again with my experiences since the original post.

This year I've invested in two pairs of trail runners. The Inov-8 X-Talon 212s were purchased primarily for actual trail running (crazy, I know) but have proved themselves quite capable on a few day walks, including one rather muddy climb up Bishop and Clerk in early spring.

Inov8 X-talon 212

The 212s are a very much minimalist design, weighing barely over 200gm (size UK10.5) with a 6mm heel offset, basically halfway between traditional runners and minimal/zero drop shoes. The sole design is very aggressive and unsurprisingly gives awesome grip on loose/soft surfaces, wet/cold rocks less so. Sheds mud quite well too, though I have to admit feeling more exposed around the ankles than usual took some getting used to. I've since invested in a pair of neoprene gaiters to help keep the uppers free of mud. The sole itself is very thin and flexible, giving a huge amount of feel underfoot, almost disconcertingly so at first but you quickly get used to it.

In addition to several walks I've also put about 100km of actual trail running on them... they're great on soft trails but a combination of hardpack running and some issues with my right hamstring eventually resulted in ongoing knee pain requiring I put them aside for the past few months while I built up strength in the weak muscle. Whether it was the shoe's minimal support, low heel, squishy lugs, an increase in both pace and weekly training mileage at the time or just the said weak hamstring to blame, I'm not entirely sure. In recent weeks I've been slowly integrating the shoes back into my training, with no issues thus far, and am hoping to run in them a 12km event at Greens Beach this Sunday. Probably more of a running than hiking-specific issue, but nonetheless, bear in mind your feet will need to adjust to a different style of shoe.

The other pair are the Inov-8 Roclite 286GTX. These are unique to the Inov-8 line, being a mid-height, waterproofed/Goretex'd boot aimed at hiking rather than running/scrambling/Crossfit etc. Despite their visual similarly to 'regular' hiking boots they are still very much minimalist shoes, with a similar grippy, flexible sole, low heel offset and no real 'support' in the upper or ankle. The fit is rather narrow - what Inov-8 call their 'precision fit' - which at first felt worryingly tight across my wide-ish feet, but having figured out how to lace them properly (aka - fairly loose) plus a bit of wearing in they now feel comfortably snug.

Inov8 Roclite 286GTX

Other than some regular casual wear, the Roclites have so far only seen one serious walk... an overnight hike on the Badger Head-Copper Creek track. With a rather un-UL pack weight on my shoulders (about 15kg, including several litres of water) the boots carried me comfortably and securely. Track conditions were dry for the most part, a bit of mud but nothing to test water resistance, nonetheless the tread pattern (similar to the X-Talons, lugs are a tad shorter) held well. I have to admit I really much prefer the all-black look too, versus the lary colour scheme of the trail runners.

The only real negative I've come across so far is that the Roclites are definitely warmer on-foot, not breathing nearly as well as the very open, breathable X-Talons. To be expected. As such, I foresee the runners getting more use over the summer, whereas the boots will be saved for the wetter/colder walks.

Cheers, Ben.

[CasualNerd]

Thanks for bumping this thread with new info, I was considering my shoe choices for a walk next week (Frenchman's cap).

After reading this I weighed my two options:
Salomon Quest 4D GTX (very sturdy boots): 1450gm
Salomon XA Pro GTX (trail running shoes): 860gm

They're both as comfortable as each other, and I find they both fit amazingly. Does anyone think it's risky using trail running shoes when there's a lot of climbing and it's obviously very remote ? I find they make me more nimble and I can run in them, something I wouldn't even attempt in the boots. The shoes also dry very quickly, (even though the goretex is pretty useless now, they've taken a beating), whereas the boots stay dry but would take forever to dry out if they got wet inside.

[Penguin]

Just did the overland track in five fingers http://us.vibram.com/shop/fivefingers/m ... t/M47.html

Previous longest was four days - this was seven days with snow!!!

Walked through the first puddle I found - after that okay.

Have not tried serious Tassie off track yet, just Vanuatu jungle.

Wait for howls of derision.

P

[north-north-west]

Have not tried serious Tassie off track yet.

Take 'em through the Western Arthurs, including all the available summits. You really think they'd stand up to the wear and tear of something like that?

[Nuts]

Haha, must have followed, I thought someone was bear foot
In the turmoil I forgot my boots and walked through that in these techamphibians

[headwerkn]

Thanks for bumping this thread with new info, I was considering my shoe choices for a walk next week (Frenchman's cap).

After reading this I weighed my two options:
Salomon Quest 4D GTX (very sturdy boots): 1450gm
Salomon XA Pro GTX (trail running shoes): 860gm

Just my opinion/experience, but I think it comes more down to if your feet/ankles are conditioned to trail runners. I wouldn't be inclined to straight away do 4-5 nights with a heavy pack on a new pair of runners without doing a few day walks or overnighters first.

With thin soled runners it can take a while to get used to feeling every rock and lump through your feet, if you've only ever hiked on firm soled boots previously. For the most part though, this is a good thing long term... as is not lugging so much weight on your feet all day, shoes that dry out in minutes rather than days, etc. etc.

[headwerkn]

Just did the overland track in five fingers http://us.vibram.com/shop/fivefingers/m ... t/M47.html

Previous longest was four days - this was seven days with snow!!!

Walked through the first puddle I found - after that okay.

Have not tried serious Tassie off track yet, just Vanuatu jungle.

Wait for howls of derision.

P

Take 'em through the Western Arthurs, including all the available summits. You really think they'd stand up to the wear and tear of something like that?

Plenty of people have done far crazier things in them... though I'd agree, walking several 30-40km days over endless rock, or off track scrub bashing through shrubbery, wouldn't be great for either them or your feet.

That said, they must have their advantages. We have a runner in our training group who runs in them, on bitumen, no less, and has the smoothest, softest running action I've seen.

[north-north-west]

I've found that most shoes cope OK with rock. It's the scrub that really takes its toll on them.

[Nuts]

Lack of ankle protection is the shortfall. I'm amazed some of the big pack hauling & off-track walks in volleys didn't see (or we don't hear more of) some nasty ankle gouging in mud, on rocks, as it will happen, given time & chance.

Just to add that the Salomons heel strap wasn't up to holding when wet for long with a heavier pack, otherwise a good shoe, impressed with the brand, sole and build quality.

[Penguin]

Have not tried serious Tassie off track yet.

Take 'em through the Western Arthurs, including all the available summits. You really think they'd stand up to the wear and tear of something like that?

Hi - took Inov-8s terra rocks through the WA's three years ago. Not only ddi they stand up well but still very serviceable. Find the five fingers more comfortable. It is my ankles I want to protect from abrasions. (I will not open the contentious argument about ankle support.) Had a good set of gaiters that went with the Inov-8's, have yet to find a good option for the five fingers.

[Nuts]

Gaiters must be enough (for those that wear them), some sort of padded tube perhaps, like a brace.
Those inov-8 mid boots look like a good compromise. The runners were a bit disappointing, too low in the heel, maybe inov-8 fixed that since.

[CasualNerd]

Just my opinion/experience, but I think it comes more down to if your feet/ankles are conditioned to trail runners. I wouldn't be inclined to straight away do 4-5 nights with a heavy pack on a new pair of runners without doing a few day walks or overnighters first.

With thin soled runners it can take a while to get used to feeling every rock and lump through your feet, if you've only ever hiked on firm soled boots previously. For the most part though, this is a good thing long term... as is not lugging so much weight on your feet all day, shoes that dry out in minutes rather than days, etc. etc.

Just came back from Frenchman's, I think there are a few parts of the track boots may have had an advantage, but overall the lighter shoes were great. Walked out from Tahune today (20Km) and did a lot better than my friend in boots. I think they probably also grip better on wet rocks than a stiffer soled boot, which was a great advantage getting to the summit after rain.

They definitely didn't dry out quickly, after two days of rain it took the third day to dry out. Not ideal, but I would have had to work a lot harder to keep boots dry (waterproof pants / gaiters) whereas I just let the shoes get wet.

[Mountain Rocket]

Anyone else got anything to add?

I'm in the market for new shoes and this is seemingly the perfect thread for me. As NNW also mentioned, scrub is my main concern.

Before I get too carried away on the internet I should probably do some shopping locally and see what the options are...
Buying shoes entirely online is a bit concerning for me, but am willing to take a gamble at this stage (moving away from heavy full grain leather boots).

[CasualNerd]

Anyone else got anything to add?

I actually just picked up a pair of Salomon UltraX Mid boots - They're right between my heavy Quest 4D Boots and light XAPro Shoes. The tread on the UltraX's is quite deep, someone described it as aggresive. Anyway they're super comfortable, and they are the best balance I can find of weight / coverage / comfort / traction etc.

http://www.wildearth.com.au/buy/salomon ... gen/373311 If you want to try them on in store, they're at my local kathmandu, so they're probably at most.

[Mountain Rocket]

Ended up with some North Face Storms. Ticked the boxes for me; relatively light (~400g ea), cheap ($100), no waterproof membrane, vibram soles and importantly no toe-box of mesh.

https://thenorthface.com.au/product/men ... -2#A1A3D6Y

Basically as far away as I could get from my last pair of boots. Time will tell how they hold up/what I think.

[GPSGuided]

I think they probably also grip better on wet rocks than a stiffer soled boot, which was a great advantage getting to the summit after rain.

What's the impact of shoe/boot stiffness on grip on identical soles eg. Vibram? Within reason, I'd thought that stiffer equates to greater force and pressure, hence better friction.

[CasualNerd]

I think they probably also grip better on wet rocks than a stiffer soled boot, which was a great advantage getting to the summit after rain.

What's the impact of shoe/boot stiffness on grip on identical soles eg. Vibram? Within reason, I'd thought that stiffer equates to greater force and pressure, hence better friction.

This is just my opinion, as i don't know exactly what compounds are used to make different soles etc: I think shoes with more flex mould against the rock somewhat, creating more surface area in contact which means more friction / grip. Stiffer soles only have smaller points in contact. Like letting your tires down to get more grip on soft ground. I guess that's a bad thing if you have sensitive feet though, if you walk over small rocks you can feel them underfoot.

I've got four different Salomon boots and shoes now, and they all perform differently to each other and change depending on temperature and whether it's wet etc. I also notice grip varies on different types of rock.

[GPSGuided]

Softer sole compound will mould and grip better eg. Dunlop Volley, but that's a different variable to sole stiffness of the shoe/boot. But can imagine how the sole of Volley will wear out in no time under a stiff pair of boots.

Taking the tyre example, radial tyres with soft grippy compound will provide better performance than old bias construction for the better geometry it holds.

I still can't equate these variables in my head.

[earthairfire]

Thought I'd chime in with my experience.

I moved from Scarpa boots (both Leather and goretex) to Innov8 Roclite 295 trailrunners. I find the improvement in comfort, fatigue and grip of the 295s amazing. I've always found wet rock a treacherous nightmare in any walking boots. With the 295s, they grip amazingly well.

I was worried at first about getting wet feet. I recently did the walk up to Lake Tali Karn and back in them. 34km and 32 river crossings in 2 days. Generally my feet dried out within 30 mins of each river crossing. At the end of the weekend, not a blister in sight.

The only 2 negatives I can say about the 295s vs boots is that if you're walking over a lot of sharp rocks, your soles do get a little sore. I also found that due to their mesh construction, my feet can get cold at night in the campsite if it's windy. I revised sock choice, and that's been less of an issue since.

I've not tried trail runners in the snow yet; not entirely sure if / how they would get on with snow shoes; I'll probably stick to my boots for alpine winter activities!

[Aushiker]

Sorry, decided a new thread would be more appropriate. Don't appear able to delete this post.