Bushwalk Australia

Hi guys I am more of a heavyweight packer looking to make some gains( or losses) in my kit. Also some cold weather questions as an exmil north QLDer with not much experience but looking to do the Tasmanian overland track 3 season. Thanks for any help, I have done a tonne of searching online and have fleshed out a lot of the theory but a few things I was hoping direct experience might be able to assist with. I have made some adjustments to my pack and shelter choices and the following are what's left.

Any suggestions on lightweight blankets or quilt to replace a sleeping bag for temps not lower than 7-10 degrees or so ('winter' in our tropics). Any lightweight brands with good warmth to weight ratio around this level?

Wondered what rating sleeping bag is a good allrounder for the overland track( not including winter) and similar hikes. I'd like to keep a my -1 rated sleeping bag for everything but am realistic. Also wondered though if sleeping fully clothed can improve the bags rating signfigantly? Being exmil I can sleep fully layered, uniformed (and booted lol) just wondering if it would it get me from -1 to -5 say, assuming sleeping on correct mat etc.

For similar temps any UL or LW options for jackets and raincoats? Already have thin merino thermal base layers, but my sweater and shell are heavy tactical brands I would like to go as UL as possible. I don't mind wearing a garbage bag for a raincoat(lol) but seriously thanks for any good options. I'd also like to use the raincoat up north if there is an option or material that suits both.

I have ditched a lot of tactical stuff from my belt but still have a garmin etrex 20 GPS. I was thinking of getting a lighter GPS watch since I don't use gps for cacheing, breadcrumbs trails etc, just occasionally checking my position to maps. I know watches have much less battery power, but I was hoping since I only need it for occasional positioning, this theory might work for 4-7 day trips.( I don't use or carry a smartphone btw).

I am thinking of ditching my army and hiking boots completely and switching to converse cons pro shoes( the old 'gym boot' with new nike cushioned soles). These are the lightest thing I have found that offer higher ankle protection, ( needed for our spiky grass seeds, also to prevent mud and sand from entering boots crossing creeks or sand bars) , have okay cushioning ,grip over wet rocks, grommet holes in them which allows them to drain, and dry out fairly quickly at night after a day jungle hiking.

However.... question is can these do double duty in southern cooler climate hikes? Can I wear warm socks in such a lightweight canvas shoe and still be okay? At what point do snow shoes come in? What do you guys do if it starts raining, shoes get wet, and temps are dropping?

Thanks for any advice

why would you want a GPS on the overland track? you dont need to navigate on it.. map and compass are lighter anyway
outdoor research are very well designed and use high quality materials. Their Helium series rainshells are around the 200gm mark and you should be able to pick one up in aus somewhere, theres a version with and without main pockets. and with and without pit zips. pit zips are worth the minor weight penalty.
you name the major brand most of them are making ultralight models of rainshells.. Marmot specialise in lightweight gear and have several models around the 200gm mark , their new membranes are extremely breathable especially the nano pro.
features vary, some have vented pockets and or pit zips, some don't... the more ventilation it has the more you will be able to use it in a bigger variety of climates. Montane is another brand available in Aus that has some lightweight gear in its lineup. shop around and try and buy on sale, lightweight gear isnt cheap, someone somewhere is going to have a sale soon. Kathmandu have ultralight stuff too.. they use top quality materials but if youre fussy about the cut, they arent the best brand to have. macpac have a lighter weight model jacket as well , they have a brand new range using completely different brand of membranes from their previous lineups...
cuben fibre rain jackets from zpacks, making one of the lightest rainshells in the world at 155gm, you'll have to pay for shipping from the states.

write up here from my brother in law in the marmot super mica rainshell. i've used it as well and found it a good jacket, my brother in law won't give it back to me though.... but thats another story

http://www.marmotnz.co.nz/gear-reviews/ ... ent-jenkin

berghaus are laying claim to the lightest rainhsell on the market

http://seattlebackpackersmagazine.com/b ... k-2-review

comparative reviews on lightweight shells here
http://www.outdoorgearlab.com/Rain-Jack ... ws/ratings

the main issue with your choice of footwear comes down to how much you're willing to put up with freezing feet if the weather is cold or theres snow, given what you choose to wear on your feet.. you cant stop wet feet in the rain, so again the only difference is how cold your feet will get based on your choice of footwear.. you can go faster in lighter weight footwear but you will have to be prepared for colder feet, comes down to personal choice

Regardless of season, when walking in alpine regions of Tasmania you will need to carry gear to cope with the most extreme of weather (including snow) at ANY TIME OF YEAR.

My thoughts on your questions:

1. Enlightened Equipment and Z Packs both make excellent quilts.
2. Does the -1C rating on your current bag refer to Comfort or Limit? If the latter, it probably won't be warm enough unless you add some insulated layering.
3. Garbage bags don't breathe and you will find yourself drenched with sweat. Wet clothes + cold climate = hypothermia. Invest in proper gear for where you are going.
4. Etrex 20 doesn't weigh much and GPS watches cost around twice the price. Your call but I would keep it.
5. I think this is very unwise. Converse "boots" are cotton canvas. They will not dry for the entire walk. See point 3.
6. Raining, wet boots and cold temps are par for the course in Tasmania. Come prepared!

Hi mickb,

Looks to me that you are getting into this with some serious thought.

Everyone comes to a slightly different solution - I can only put my perspective opinion (for whatever it is worth).

mickb wrote:Any suggestions on lightweight blankets or quilt to replace a sleeping bag for temps not lower than 7-10 degrees or so ('winter' in our tropics). Any lightweight brands with good warmth to weight ratio around this level?

Where are you located mickb? I'm in Townsville and use a Jacks R Better Shenadoah quilt (rated to about 5 degrees). This is hydrophobic down and weighs in about 500g. Before that I had a synthetic Mountain Designs sleeping bag rated to about 8 degrees. Down is always nicer to sleep under One thing to note that you will need a sleep system that will go to about zero for around here in winter - those nights the other week that were 6-7 minimums around town are approaching zero in the hills (yes, they even got frost in the hollows up on Hervey Range!). However as this is an occasional thing, I wear extra clothes to bed on cold nights and stick with the same sleeping bag / quilt.

mickb wrote:Wondered what rating sleeping bag is a good allrounder for the overland track( not including winter) and similar hikes. I'd like to keep a my -1 rated sleeping bag for everything but am realistic. Also wondered though if sleeping fully clothed can improve the bags rating signfigantly? Being exmil I can sleep fully layered, uniformed (and booted lol) just wondering if it would it get me from -1 to -5 say, assuming sleeping on correct mat etc.

I think a quality down sleeping bag with a genuine rating of -5 to -10 degrees is perfect for Tassie. YMMV of course. Personally, I wouldn't want to take a -1 bag into the hills in Tassie. Yes, you can boost the warmth with clothes (keep in mind if you have too much clothes on and the bag is a slim fit you may compress the down and defeat the purpose) and a vapour barrier. But you will need those options on occasion in Tassie with a -5 to -10 bag as it can certainly get to those temperatures and a bit below up on the mountains. Also, Tassie is typically a very wet, humid sort of cold, down gets damp and loses efficiency and overall it is hard to stay dry and warm. It is actually easier to stay warm in consistently below zero temperatures (with the right gear) than it is in the 'just a bit above and below freezing'+ wet conditions in Tassie.

For extra warmth boost and preserving your down to its optimal efficiency, I would very much recommend taking a vapour barrier to sleep in in Tassie. Sounds like with your background you will have no problem adapting to this. See http://sectionhiker.com/vapor_barrier_clothing/ - you can make almost anything work at a pinch from garbage bags, to emergency bivvys, to the proper liners like the ones mentioned in this article.

Most of the serious outdoor brands make a pretty good sleeping bag (lots of not so good as well) but detailed reviews abound on the web. Brands like Western Mountaineering, Marmot, Feathered Friends are at the top of the tree for good down products - also some very good makes out of Europe including Poland. Go for something with 800 loft down or better. A good bag in that -5 to -10 range will weigh no more than 1 kilo (and may be a bit less). There are also very good down quilts for the purpose now - I personally will stick with a bag for the colder stuff but plenty are doing just fine with quilts.

mickb wrote:For similar temps any UL or LW options for jackets and raincoats? Already have thin merino thermal base layers, but my sweater and shell are heavy tactical brands I would like to go as UL as possible. I don't mind wearing a garbage bag for a raincoat(lol) but seriously thanks for any good options. I'd also like to use the raincoat up north if there is an option or material that suits both.

Some of the military spec stuff is really good - i wear some military spec baselayers for places like Tassie (XGO). But yeah, much is overbuilt and heavy for just bushwalking. Plenty of good info on layering on the web - you will probably be surprised how little you need when on the move in Tassie even when it is really cold. I am 90% of the time in shorts and baselayer t-shirt - with the shell on when raining, snowing or really windy. When it is really cold I add a 100wt fleece or similar on the move. You want to be on the cold side of comfortable whilst moving if possible. As for rain shells, no there are no good options for NQ I am experimenting with just a windshirt (hasn't really been a wet season for three years to struggling to test it). The idea is that the windshirt will block the breeze and the volumes of water running over my skin (it can be surprisingly cold in the rain in NQ in summer, because it is falling in such volumes the heat is getting washed off your skin!) though I will still get soaked. For Tassie the newer WPB air permeable fabrics like eVent and its rebadged offerings are great - they sort of work if you dare don them up here too. Lots and lots of discussion of the merits of various WPB fabrics already on this forum and web.

mickb wrote:I have ditched a lot of tactical stuff from my belt but still have a garmin etrex 20 GPS. I was thinking of getting a lighter GPS watch since I don't use gps for cacheing, breadcrumbs trails etc, just occasionally checking my position to maps. I know watches have much less battery power, but I was hoping since I only need it for occasional positioning, this theory might work for 4-7 day trips.( I don't use or carry a smartphone btw).

Don't know, i just carry an etrex 30.

mickb wrote:I am thinking of ditching my army and hiking boots completely and switching to converse cons pro shoes( the old 'gym boot' with new nike cushioned soles). These are the lightest thing I have found that offer higher ankle protection, ( needed for our spiky grass seeds, also to prevent mud and sand from entering boots crossing creeks or sand bars) , have okay cushioning ,grip over wet rocks, grommet holes in them which allows them to drain, and dry out fairly quickly at night after a day jungle hiking.

I am a fan of boots but it is near impossible to get light, drainable boots of a type I would prefer so have learnt to work with trail shoes (and they are great). Personally I use Inov8 Trailroc 245s - Inov8's are very well regarded by shoe wearing walkers but there are also plenty of other good options. Forums like backpackinglight have lots of discussion. I have bad ankles so use a light flexible ankle brace when carrying packs with shoes (http://www.swedeo.com/TarsalLok.htm ). And always wear gaiters with the shoes - you will need gaiters with boots anyway, both up here and in Tassie. Great thing with the shoes is that they are very light on the feet and yes, very fast to drain and dry.

mickb wrote:However.... question is can these do double duty in southern cooler climate hikes? Can I wear warm socks in such a lightweight canvas shoe and still be okay? At what point do snow shoes come in? What do you guys do if it starts raining, shoes get wet, and temps are dropping?

Socks, socks and socks. The right combination of socks will take you into the snow (at least most Australian snow) no problem in trail shoes. In cold places (Tassie and NZ) I take thick wool Darn Tough socks for general cool walking (they are very warm and very warm when damp so I also use these for the occasional water crossing - just walk straight in and no problems coming out, just keep moving). For really, really wet days (e.g. crossing bogs) I wear neoprene socks (and if really cold the wool socks over those). For lots of snow but not too much water I wear vapour barrier socks. Problem in Tassie is you will generally get all three scenarios in a few hours but the sock combinations work across roles well enough. All combinations are worn with thin, synthetic liner socks first.

Boots, I will only go to now for dry, powdery snow (does it exist in Australia?), where crampons are need or a really rigid sole is going to be necessary for kicking steps all day in snow.

There are so many brands and models that will do what you want in the above categories it is just about pointless recommending any specific model. If you do come up with an option/s however feel free to post in the gear section for opinions, than it is easier for others to post any positive / negative experiences and direct competitors.

mickb wrote: I'd like to keep a my -1 rated sleeping bag for everything but am realistic.

Just had another thought on this, if you had a down quilt for up here you could possible put this around the current sleeping bag in Tassie. Provided the dimensions worked out ok (didn't compress the down) this should be warm enough. Still not as nice and simple to use as one, appropriately rated bag for Tassie though.

Awesome replies gents , a lot of good advice from real world experience. Just answering some of the questions in turn- also need a GPS for general use, not just the overland track but maybe switching to a watch is unecessary, might just keep the etrex.

nq11 I am in Innisfail Cairns area these days, spent quite a bit of time in Townsville with the army. while the heat is similar the green belt north is different level for rain, damp, mould and trying to preserve kit it appears. Have already lost whole trunk of army gear to mould, it even grows on new clothes in closets lol. I do FIFO and am paranoid leaving my kit, guns and knife collection in the house for 2 weeks without fresh air circulating.Sort of leary of expensive down and high end UL gear as a result, you have to view gear as semi disposable. But would like to bite the bullet with the blanket, rain shell and jacket and just go for it so am googling all those suggestions and by the other gents as mentioned. I would probably only use these gear for down south. For rainforest hikes I don't bother even wearing a raincoat, as mentioned you sweat through it as fast as the rain makes you wet anyway lol.

My bag is a Sac-1 synthetic One planet which I believe is the comfort rating . However am thinking on the replies here maybe I would be better prepared with the Sac-5 version for 3 season tassie? Its a 400 gram or so jump in weight is all( damned synthetics again) so I am wondering if maybe the Sac-1 with a good blanket might be just as good. Then at least I could use my cheaper, lighter Sac-1 as my general bag for North QLD. Thoughts?

As to shoes thanks all still getting my head around it. So if its in the minuses and my feet end up cold and wet, as long as I am moving I will be okay just be cold and miserable feet right? Or are we talking frostbite and toes snapping off sort of thing?

I can handle the former okay, if its just a matter of good socks combos, keep moving and toughing it out.

I am sort of trying to avoid buying any specialised or heavy hiking boots or goretex gear is all. Maybe the converse sneakers are a bit too minimal though, but if I can get away with trail shoes this might be a goer?

A lot of good information guys, thanks again, I am still googling it all to get my head around it. Thanks also for the succinct points strider and the links wayno, still reading it all over again.

torpedo7.com.au sell some cheaper lightweight rainshells..

Frostbite on feet can be pretty serious, since cold+wet tends to reduce circulation. The trouble starts when people try to layer up socks in shoes that don't have enough room, then the compression masks the freezing. As long as you are smart about it, you should do alright. Its mostly during sleep that people get frozen toes, or forced marches where there is not time to dry out boots, and when "toughing it out" seems like the best option. Its actually not hard at all for a focused adult to get frostbite by just pushing past the initial pain and discomfort, and then the pain goes away. So to answer your question, yes, cold wet and miserable can lead to snapping off toes.
In all my experience with snow, dry is the key factor. Keep your feet dry and you stand a chance. There are a lot of people who do use shoes and don't worry too much, and I assume most of them still have their toes, but its really hard to say. I have no experience using waterproof socks, and have done some pretty cold temps in leather boots with wool socks, but those were in times when warming up was an easy option.

mickb wrote:While the heat is similar the green belt north is different level for rain, damp, mould and trying to preserve kit it appears. Have already lost whole trunk of army gear to mould, it even grows on new clothes in closets lol. I do FIFO and am paranoid leaving my kit, guns and knife collection in the house for 2 weeks without fresh air circulating.Sort of leary of expensive down and high end UL gear as a result, you have to view gear as semi disposable.

Yeah, it has been a few years since we have had mould growing on the ceilings here, and it doesn't last too long down here when it does appear . I remember from Cairns when I was young how bad it can go on in the wet tropics.

Down is still easily the best insulation for its weight. And I don't know how to quantify this, but the warmth under a down bag is always 'toastier' or nicer than a synthetic bag. So I would heavily recommend finding a storage solution for down up there, especially if this is what may be putting you off getting a bag to work well in cold places like Tassie.

Maybe get a big heavy duty sealable plastic bag and and lots of silica gel off ebay, and after using your bag, run it on very low in the dryer to remove all moisture, then put in the bag with the silica gel and seal up? Also, the humidity issue is why I waited getting a down quilt for up here until the DWR (Durable Water Repellent) treated down was available in quilts. Not sure if this stuff is going to be the whole solution, and how long the DWR will last, but it has got to help.

You'll find tons of really solid expertise on all aspects of bushwalking and camping in the cold, but almost nothing of detail or repute on bushwalking and camping in true tropical conditions. Much of the very little you will find is inaccurate, often confusing dry heat with tropical heat (e.g. what comes out of SoCal). But trying to climb a mountain up here in summer is in some ways harder than climbing a mountain in winter in Tassie. Plenty of hardened 'ice warriors' would never dream of tackling a true tropical climb and wouldn't know where to start to get prepared for something like this.

Mate funnily enough the bag and silica gel is what I use Maybe I am being a bit paranoid with the down bags but its just a pain even mixing it with the rest of my kit which has been exposed or had mould scrubbed off it at some stage, that's how it always gets in. You chuck something at the bottom of your pack which has once held a a shirt or groundsheet that once went mouldy and low and behold if the conditions permit that same type of mould appears on all the other stuff. A lot of my gear has small patches in a state of latent mouldiness, that's where a light infestation has been scrubbed off once without getting right into the fabric, maybe only leaving a stain or nothing at all, but its the first patch for it to re appear. Its why I am sort of not a real lightweight packer, my main pack is a berghaus Vulcan 100lite mil pack. One of the lightest expedition level packs made but still a monster for a forum like this at 6lbs or so. But the wear and tear in the thick stuff I don't think is very good on UL gear, also with 1000D cordura the mould has more to chew through before it makes a hole.
Yes tropical walking is another thing altogether, not many people really do it full on in summer, almost none in Australia. I put a together a post on another thread about my findings. Several days in rainforest,real thick stuff, even moreso the coastal swampier type is like being in gauntanimo bay isolation cell, just green everywhere, no normal visual bearings, you stay wet the whole time, get into dry gear at night, back into wet gear in the morning. And you always feel like *&%$#!, always ha ha. Walking, resting, lying under your bug dome, doesn't matter. I went barely clothed for a while, which seemed like a grand plan, until you work out any clearings where a tree has fallen, or trackside is full of stinging trees. Brushed my wrist against one and its still hurting 4 months later, apparently still got 2 months before the pain dies off completely. What an infernal creature on gods good earth. Anyway thanks for the tips again, I might take another gander at down equipment.

mickb wrote: I put a together a post on another thread about my findings.

Would you be so kind as to direct me to this post mickb? I'd love to see how someone else tackles these conditions.

Maybe need to start some new threads on here - True tropical walking (gear) and True tropical walking (technique)

Hi mate here it is here viewtopic.php?f=15&t=19708 My findings at the bottom,not much yet but still developing. I spent childhood in the tropics but always camped out west in normal aussie bushland which was a lot easier to enjoy. Just getting back into it now after a stint in the army and some work abroad. I think your idea is a good one. Not much info on real tropical trekking out there, the yanks write a bit about amazon and Asian tours but that's about it.

Just realised you replied on that old thread too I took some of your advice at the time regards synthetics and stopping at creeks to cool off. In fact I ended up having a fully clothed bath at least a day with soap on the march, everything I wore was wet anyway, so it served to cool off and take the pong out of the clothes.

Just on the issue of wearing clothes in your bag. If you are using a down bag for lightweight warmth, you need to avoid introducing water into your sleep system, as water will collapse the loft, DRAMATICALLY reducing the warmth of the bag. Particularly for the OLT, where the dewpoint is likely to be somewhere inside your bag. So you should not be wearing any wet/sweaty clothing to bed. Personally, I keep a separate base layer and a pair of socks solely for sleeping in. A down jacket can be a useful supplement to a bag though, as you are probably aiming to keep the down jacket dry anyway, although as others have noted, you may want to think about available volume within a slim fit bag. Wearing clothes to bed for warmth in alpine conditions is a different approach than that in the mil, where it is about readiness (plus the mil uses synth rather than down bags).

Another thing to consider is your sleeping mat. Because you are compressing the insulation of that part of the bag which is underneath you, making it next to useless, you can lose a lot of heat this way. Insulated mats are good solution to this, rather than a warmer bag. Exped Synmats or Thermorest Neoairs are lightweight with an R rating of 3-3.5. Downmats are even warmer, but you are unlikely to see much use for them in FNQ.

With a good mat and wearing a couple of baselayers and longjohns, I have got my +2 bag down to about -4. I haven't yet had to use my last layer of defence, which would be to put on a down jacket inside my bag.

great post macca, thanks very much.