Coroner raises questions on safety of Cascade Saddle

[wayno]

http://www.odt.co.nz/news/queenstown-la ... ade-saddle

Mr Crerar said it was possible he had fallen victim to ''summit fever'' - knowing he only had a few more steps to take to reach the top, when it may have been prudent to have stopped.

Snr Const Johnston said Mr Spychalski had been wearing shoes designed for trail running. They did not provide ankle support, the soles were not ridged, the tread was not exceptionally deep and the rubber lugs were smooth.

http://www.topomap.co.nz/NZTopoMap?v=2& ... 41005&z=15

[forest]

Snr Const Johnston said Mr Spychalski had been wearing shoes designed for trail running. They did not provide ankle support, the soles were not ridged, the tread was not exceptionally deep and the rubber lugs were smooth.

I can't help but feel this comment is based on a more traditional tramping knowledge. As someone who has been up there in light trail runners (and light pack to match, very important factor to runners) I didn't feel the need to have boots on. The ankle support issue for many is zero that are conditioned to runners (but I know many people need boots for dodgy ankles), non ridged soles I find better, so long as your feet can handle the pounding, and pounded they can get. I get so much better traction from my runners over my boots, but they do have a deep, sticky / tacky rubber lug tread.

For me I feel the lack of apparent deep tread and lugs worn smooth would be a bigger issue. Wasn't he on wet snow grass too ??

I don't want to start the whole boot verse runner debate again. Boots have there place and for many it will be on Cascade Saddle. It is very steep and rocky.... but it is on a trail and people do run it in one hit. (Wayno didn't you post a link last year to some people that ran over the saddle and down the Dart ??)

[wayno]

there was snow or ice on the ground and he slipped, stiffer footwear and better tread may have prevented this, he had no ice axe to self arrest with, the slope is steep enough that when you slip in the wet or in snow or ice its almost impossible to stop your descent.

i wouldnt attempt the trip in the wet or in wet snow and certainly not without crampons and ice axe in the snow

[wayno]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/southland-times/ ... over-ridge

[GPSGuided]

Reading the full article, the officer's comment on shoes seemed to be only contributory evidence and one aspect of factual concern. I don't think he was suggesting they were the root causes on the accident. I think the comment by the Doc Hut warden was more critical for need of ice axe and crampons at the time. Sounded like that even "perfect" boots weren't enough for the condition.

It always amazes me how SAR teams can find these victim when they have ended so far away from the original path.

[wayno]

hard to know without the exact condition of the snow. ice axe and crampons would have been adviseable along with stiffer soled footwear. but if the snow was slushy where he slipped nothing may have saved him

[wayno]

the top picture is approaching the top of the climb, the bottom picture is an indication of what the slope is like at the very top although this was taken further down, but i remember climbing a slope like this just before topping out at the pylon. its a 1400m climb, if you're getting tired you'll be thinking more of getting the relief of the plateau at the top than having to turn around and negotiate the steep slop in snow.. most accidents happen on the descent..

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cascade 2.jpg (142.53 KiB) Viewed 32772 times

[GPSGuided]

Pretty serious stuff!

[wayno]

well its reputation had me a bit scared, but pretty much all the accidents are in snow or wet and going down,,,
in the end i didnt find it a problem going up, and i wasnt worried once i was on the slope. if you slip you're likely to fall forward into the face and it wasnt so unstable underfoot that i slipped. i had a walking pole to help. there were people going down when i was there no probs but you'd be more careful. at one point i strayed off the track onto vegetation and that got a bit tricky and i was scrambling on all fours to get back onto the track, i couldnt get the sole of my foot flat on the ground with the slope so wasnt making much contact, and i didnt want to fall , no telling if i'd stop on the slop...

[forest]

if the snow was slushy where he slipped nothing may have saved him

That's more along the line of my thoughts.

[wayno]

by far the worst part of the trip apart from when i came to a grinding halt when i couldnt get air into my lungs fast enough after three hours of climbing was the night before looking at the climb,,

its the spur your can see climbing up to the top in the sunlight..

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[GPSGuided]

No verticals, what's the problem?

[wayno]

not quite vertical

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[wayno]

actually i found this one looks up towards the top,

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[GPSGuided]

Ok Wayno, you win!

[wayno]

nothing like a nice motivational sign at the start of a long hard day on the track...

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[wayno]

Outside mag just rated the Cascade saddle as one of the 10 most dangerous hikes in the world

http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-ad ... Hikes.html

[GPSGuided]

Outside mag just rated the Cascade saddle as one of the 10 most dangerous hikes in the world
http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-ad ... Hikes.html

Kalalau Trail, where wild drug addicts throw hikers off the cliff!

[wayno]

One of the country's leading experts in mountain safety is likely to be called in to determine whether a permanent safety rope should be installed along the treacherous Cascade Saddle in the Mt Aspiring National Park, west of Wanaka.

http://www.odt.co.nz/news/queenstown-la ... -requested

[GPSGuided]

Does the decision on the installation of a rope have to be determined by an "expert"? No wonder bureaucracy costs big money. Seriously, if they want to make it safer, then install a rope. If they think the place is too dangerous and wants no deaths, then close the area. If they want to give people the liberty to explore the world, then accept the risks that some will die. No different to Mt Everest climbs.

[wayno]

snow buildup limits what they can put in, it has to be designed specifically for the area and conditions to avoid problems.
theres also the issue of having a safety rope installed may lull people into a belief it becomes safe as a result and you end up with more inexperienced people doing the walk. this all has to be weighed up.
the no of injuries and deaths don't warrant closing it, NZ law guarantees free access to the parks, there has to be very extenuating circumstances to close an area, such as the recent volcanic eruptions on tongariro.

[wayno]

its in an area with mountains between two nd three thousand metres high, significant snowfall can accumulate and last well into summer.

[GPSGuided]

theres also the issue of having a safety rope installed may lull people into a belief it becomes safe as a result and you end up with more inexperienced people doing the walk. this all has to be weighed up.

Yes, thought about that. But still, pay a $400/hr rate (common rate for court expert witnesses but a range exists) "expert" for the opinion when a department like DOC should already have the internal expertise. Rope or no rope, there'll be future accidents and deaths, not as if they are going to spend the money and reduce the death risk to zero. Society and the legal system!

[wayno]

there are people a lot more experienced in the alpine environment around than exist in DOC

[GPSGuided]

Well, be interested in knowing what the coroner recommends at the end.

[Giddy_up]

Will this set precedent on all mountains over a certain height in NZ that are "dangerous".

[wayno]

no. cascade saddle has people crossing it on a daily basis most of the year. for the no's of people who cross it without ice axes or crampons, it would be the most dangerous pass in NZ. it's a bit of a unique case... someone dies on average every couple of years and there are severe injuries caused every year...
when i did my trip over it, it was going to be totally provisional on the weather,, if it wasnt highly likely to remain dry I wouldnt go.. i didnt book my plane trip until i had an accurate weather forecast for the area a couple of days beforehand, i booked my trip to coincide with me crossing the saddle with the best weather possible...

[Giddy_up]

Thanks for that wayno, but I can't imagine though that it's more dangerous than Everest with 4 odd deaths per 100 people who summit and Everest is not the most dangerous. I think its a bit silly that the Govt at the request of a coroner may have to try to make it safe for climbers that's all. Ones first duty of care is to ones self, if you disregard that the liability must fall on that persons shoulders!!!!!!!!!

[wayno]

There is very little comparison with everest
Just about anyone can climb the route to the saddle (via the pylon) with no alpine experience or gear and no special outdoor gear, the bottom of the route on the matukituki side is two hours easy flat walk from an easily accessed road end.... therein lies the reason for the casualties. whether anything should be done to address the casualties is an academic one. doc will have the final say.

[GPSGuided]

For a liberal society, sounds like a warning sign with detail on the dangers is all that's needed. The rest is for the individual to determine.