Soft shell jacket...waste of money ?

[Mutley]

I recently bought a Lowe alpine soft shell jacket. It was on sale and definitely an impulse purchase. Having owned many fleece jackets, I assumed this jacket would be just as warm, as well as wind proof and reasonably water resistant. I have to say, I am a bit disappointed in the jacket. It is fairly wind proof, but just doesn't feel too warm. It did cost more than double the cost of a fleece jacket and I was expecting more from the garment.

I'm off on a 7 day hike soon and am thinking about leaving the jacket behind, as it doesn't seem to fit well into my layering of clothing. I normally wear a thermal and shirt. If cold, the fleece goes on and if wet, the gortex jacket goes over the fleece. So where does the soft shell fit into the plan? I am very reluctant to take it in place of the fleece, as the warmth doesn't seem to compare.

Has anyone out there who has a soft shell jacket experienced the same ??

[JohnM]

They're a hybrid jacket that's kind of ok at most things, but not really great at anything. Not warm enough to be a decent mid layer, not waterproof enough to be an outer. Good for the city, but personally I wouldn't take one on a walk.

[icemancometh]

Softshells aren't that great for Australia. You need cold, dry conditions, ie North America, Europe etc

In these conditions, Keeping most but not all of the wind out is good for high output activities is all that is required. (this is the achilles hell of normal fleece, wind is)
Often they will have a brush lining inside for warmth (anything more than that though and they tend to be too warm for their intended use)
Stretch is what they are also good for, for athletic pursuits like skiing, climbing, etc
A bit of durability too for things like ski edges, climbing again.

Without the need for the durability, ie not rock climbing etc, you could well go with the windshirts/pants, which will surprisingly keep you warm in quite cool conditions so long as you are moving.

Horses for courses, not really that useful in Australia/NZ most of the time except in the cold/snow and even then depends on what you are doing. Hope that helps

[ninjapuppet]

Mutley, softshell jackets are not a waste of money if you are into mountaineering.
With alpine climbing, you generally wait for a window of good weather before you power up, so it doesnt need to be 100% waterproof.
Softshells breath much better than a hardshell when you're working hard, and can keep small bits of snow from wetting you out. Even my eVent jacket with pitzips opened up wont breath as well as my softshell.
With the new waterproof softshells, you get the best of both worlds.

Compared to a fleece, theres usually strong winds up in alpine areas where a fleece simply wont cut it.

[wayno]

more of a jacket for keeping you warm while youre on the go, not so good in the cold when you've stopped, and they arent as light as a fleece or down jacket, made for activity like rock and alpine climbing to resist abrasion..
i find a softshell vest good for day walking though, doesnt take up much space in the pack, good when you dont need to completely cover your upper body in a jacket, not that keen on lugging it on overnight hikes since its not the best warmth for weight
as mentioned better in dry conditions, humidity affects how much you feel the cold. the more humid the air in cold temperatures the much faster it can conduct heat away from your body. a canadian one commented new zealand was the coldest place he'd ever been to!!!

[Mutley]

Thanks for the advice everyone. It might be good to use in conjunction with a fleece underneath. If they are shower proof, it may be handier than using the goretex just for light rain. I'll give it a try out on a few day walks first. Cheers.

[wayno]

lighter option is to use a windshirt for keeping light rain off with a fleece underneath when needed.

[icemancometh]

agree

windshirts shine unless you are going to abrade it

[blacksheep]

just a quick note- there are no rules to what is called a softshell...some garments have membranes in them to maximise water resistance, others do not, thus making them better for letting sweat exit. So don't blindly buy softshell without investigating what it is you are actually buying..cheers

[wayno]

most sofshells arent waterproof, even if it has a waterproof membrane it won't be waterproof unless it's seam sealed.
be careful of how they are adertised.
i bought one with a waterproof membrane and no seam sealing, it was advertised as highly water resistant, I beg to differ on that description... I would only call it showerproof. capilary action of the water worked thorugh the seems and right through my thermal baselayer .
the waterproof softhsells are usually too hot to wear in anything other than winter and or alpine conditions, party because they are usually heavier material, partly because they are a closer fit than hardshells or windshirts.

[icemancometh]

Yep, Schoeller or Pertex fabrics only please!

[wayno]

when you've got a windshirt that weighs around 150gm and you've got a shoftshell that are usually over 500 to 7 or 800gm plus bulkier there's a reasonable amount of weight to be saved using a windshirt to block the wind, put it over a normal fleece and you get better warmth than a softshell.

[blacksheep]

Yep, Schoeller or Pertex fabrics only please!

both schoeller and pertex make fabrics with and without laminates and/or coatings..these guys have huge libraries of textiles developing all the time..again, a label, a brand and/or a category is not so specific that all within it will be the same. The answers are out there, but the questions need to be asked first.

[Moondog55]

I know I have posted this a number of times but simple polyester mesh lined microfiber tracksuits are if suitably treated with a durable water resistant polymer
( Nikwax; etc)
are an excellent soft shell.
the use of soft shells sometimes gets a bad name due to misuse but I have recently found them to be a valuable addition to my wardrobe, even in heavy rain at 0C and a goodly breeze the combination of the old puma trackie top and an old polartec 100 top over my silk-weight I was warm enough and my skin was dry; if the rain had stopped before I got to the bottom of the hill I would have dried off quickly enough; as it was I dried off in about 5 minutes in the heated diner.

[icemancometh]

Yep, Schoeller or Pertex fabrics only please!

both schoeller and pertex make fabrics with and without laminates and/or coatings..these guys have huge libraries of textiles developing all the time..again, a label, a brand and/or a category is not so specific that all within it will be the same. The answers are out there, but the questions need to be asked first.

Didn't want to bore everyone but gotta expect that from a UL crowd I guess

Ok I'll bite...Dryskin Extreme for pretty much everything except slower (alpine) then WB 400
Pertex was the Equilibrium

Dryskin is my favourite and the most expensive.
Again, I would refer you to the NWAlpine as a reference

One other thing with softshells, you don't want to get them wet wet as the stretch makes them slow to dry. hence why windshirts...also easier to dry out by body heat as you are on the go.

[Moondog55]

OK but why insist on stretch, mine definitely are not, from my POV it is the loose fit that makes them work

[icemancometh]

so you are not restricted in your movements...high stepping while scrambling/hiking

skiing/climbing...try doing that in stretchy gear and not stretchy gear and tell me which is better?

stretch also allows better fit

[Moondog55]

Well I would tend to disagree; stretch gives good freedom of movement at the expense of ventilation, and I prefer to wear my clothes loose to foster ventilation.
Like most things it is personal choice but ventilation beats freedom of movement 2 times out of 3 in my experience and i have experimented with both.
Keeping dry needs lots of ventilation for softshells to work as designed

[wayno]

sofshells were originally made for the cold, which close fiting clothes are better for.

[icemancometh]

loose fitting means cold air from outside tends to get iin...in cold and windy places, ie winter, where these items were designed for then that is a problem

if you are having ventilation problems maybe go lighter clothing, like just the windshirt.

I generally find for Aus/NZ I prefer windshirt top, softshell bottoms if it is that cold.
I want stretch and tapered fit so I can see my feet when I climb and so I don't get held back high stepping

And I don't want wind gusting up to make me cold

[wayno]

otherwise making sure you have a hardhell that has some form of venting, , pit zips or vented pockets with a mesh lining.. although vented pockets are more likley to let the water in during severe storms, not adviseable for colder climates., pit zips can also let water in , but i prefer to have them than not given the climates i tramp in.

[Moondog55]

The first place I saw soft shell jackets was in Scotland.
In winter, very wet, very windy and miserably cold and I saw fellers climbing in Buffalo Sports jackets, and they were what I would term loose.
I think we have to realise that there are far too many interpretations of "Softshell " for there to be any real consensus.
BTW last week I was using my silk-weight Patagonia and the old puma top, it was -20C with a reasonable breeze and I was sweating like buggery on the climb and at no time did I feel cold and I was dry 5 minutes after I stopped by the simple expedient of putting on my Goretex and leaving the zipper open for a minute or three ( I love the dry cold you get over here - I am still in the USA in the Adirondacks; we leave in a couple of days and there is still NO SNOW ???!!!) what works for me may not work for others I see that, but the current stretch fabrics differ little from the early stretch wool ski pants of the 60's and having tried them I say they are not for me, personal choice.
if you do use the loose soft shell method though it is important to make sure you can layer up without taking off anything; that simply takes too long.

[gbedford]

All good advice.
I tend to dress like Wayno and Icemancometh but appreciate the other ideas. Certainly dry cold is a different environment but I have also been with people in the UK using Buffalo gear. They were not staying out over night though.

Cheers,
Gordon

[Moondog55]

So perhaps I should re-open this discussion and ask about design compromise here.
if stretch is good how much less fabric would there be in a stretch pant compared to a non-stretch garment and how much weight is saved in doing so?
If using a combination of fabrics where would the stretch panels be best utilised ?
Should a softshell be cut much closer or just a little? Pull-over or full zipper?
I have to say I prefer a half or third length zipper pull-over style myself; I often just pull my full zippered jackets straight on without bothering to use the zipper and there is little point in a pull-over with a zipper that goes lower than the waist drawcord.
Schoeller and Pertex have been mentioned but not EPIC, is this because EPIC is so much more expensive that most people can't afford to use it??

[wayno]

best answer is to try on some stretch garments..
you usually notice the difference in the closer fit with stretch garments, it varies from company to company how they cut the fabric and garment to garment.
softshell is such a generic term, the fabrics vary in what they are made of , and how they behave.
as you say you have your own preference with zip length, so aim for that if you can find it.
on top of softshells, a lot of garments now are hybrids where they mix different fabrics into a garment according to what it's designed for. theres no end of different softshells you can get.

a search here shows nearly 700 different softshells of varying designs....
http://www.gearbuyer.com/c/mens_clothin ... =softshell

[Moondog55]

Wowzers
I didn't see any Buffalo tho.
maybe I should just go with my gut feelings then, so far it seems that th ones which work the best are those with some; but not a lot; of insulation

[slparker]

My 2 cents.... I echo many of the comments above, I find softshells either too cold or not breathable enough for australia. I've tried a windstopper softshell whilst skiing and found it did not breathe sufficiently and wetted out with sweat (and was surprisingly not snowproof).

My only caveat is I have a pair of MD glacier (stretch softshell) pants, awesome for x country skiing. I bought them for a NZ mountaineering course and they were perfect for that purpose. I've never worn them bushwalking and probably never will.

My favoured jacket is a windpro jacket (basically a form of close knit fleece) and goretex over the top when wet. I do have a softshell jacket for casual and for daywalks, camping etc. Would probably never wear one again on overnight walks/skiing.

[Moondog55]

I sweat too much, even very lightly dressed, so breathability is my first priority after wind-proofing, my Goretex is a sauna when I ski.
I just have to make one and give it a try I 'spose, anyway I just ordered the stretch EPIC from Rockywoods so I give it a try this winter, works out to be $16- a metre the same price as japara at Spotlight

[icemancometh]

EPIC is a coated fabric only?

Re softshells I prefer half zips as I do for most of my outdoor gear, even rain wear...venting option and lighter weight, ie better fit. The only time I compromise is if the jacket version has better features, ie pockets, hood etc. Besides Ueli's MHW setup most climbing style jackets have ok hoods whereas WP smocks have rubbish AR hoods only.

The best looking softshell I have seen would be a cross between the NWA Big Four and the Patagonia Knifeblade.

Prob with half zip though is if the bottom of the item doesn't fit you then it really doesn't fit you and the thing ends up like a balloon and you looking like you're 9months along.

Moondog, if you're outsweating your WP ski jacket, try a softshell, or even a windshell. You're not likely to see much abrasion skiing and if you are, well you need more than a jacket anyway.

[Mutley]

Ok, I really need to eat a huge slice of humble pie on this topic. Just returned from the OLT. On the second day, it was cold and windy, although only a light drizzle of rain. I was wearing a merino thermal top, a merino polo shirt and the Lowe alpine soft shell, with thermal hat and gloves. This combination worked really well. It kept out most of the wind and breathed enough to stop excessive sweating, while hauling a 20 kg pack.

I still think these jackets are too expensive but technically, they do seem to breathe very well and keep the wind out. Like to see my fleece try the same thing.

Thanks for all the posts and I hope I prompted some worthwhile discussion.