GPS and PLB advice please

[Chris]

I've been putting off making a decision on these for too long, in the vain hope that the magical combination of GPS and PLB with 2 way communication at a bearable cost may become available. Really can't avoid doing something about it now, as I am doing a few walks with someone who is quite new to walking so need to be somewhat responsible.

Not being a gear freak I don't particularly want anything too complex. Have done a fair bit of research on this forum and elsewhere and am now thinking of Garmin eTrex 10 (provided that it is Mac compatible - am waiting for a reply on that - and still available) and ResQLink Plus (I also row, so floating could be useful). Have been thinking about a SPOT but the number of reports of communication failures concerned me, though I gather that some of these apparent failures to transmit may have been caused by not allowing sufficient transmission time.

My walks are currently day walks, but wouldn't rule out going back to over-nighters in the future.

I would appreciate any comments, just in case I'm missing something obvious in the way of better possibilities or specific problems with my choices. I'm happy to spend more if there's a good reason. I do also carry my almost antique "Farmer's Phone" (ZTE F165) which gives pretty good coverage, but sooner or later suppose I'll have to succumb to an iPhone.

[wayno]

if you do a forum search you'll find this has been discussed at length before.

this is just one thread on the subject, you can add any further questions to the relevant threads you find and you should get an answer

viewtopic.php?f=21&t=1709&hilit=locator+beacon+spot

[sthughes]

You may not care about maps, but I'd probably step up to the eTrex 20 or Dakota 10 to give you the ability to add maps if you wish. Otherwise the eTrex 10 is a good little unit and does all that is needed.

[stepbystep]

You may not care about maps, but I'd probably step up to the eTrex 20 or Dakota 10 to give you the ability to add maps if you wish. Otherwise the eTrex 10 is a good little unit and does all that is needed.

Agreed. Although a mapping GPS is a bit trickier to set up and dearer they make understanding the terrain you're in much easier.

Re SPOT I've had one failed message from extremely dense forest in a deep valley, 2 other SPOT's failed from the same location that day. Every other time it has worked fine. I have no experience with other units.

[GPSGuided]

Garmin is Mac compatible these days, much improvements have been made on this front over the last few years. They have a few applications for various tasks, including BaseCamp. I also recommend a mapping version as it gives far more information than non-mapping versions.

On PLB. All Australian models are required by law to be floatable, often by the addition of a buoyancy sleeve. I recently found and purchased a unit, Ocean Signal's PLB1. It's tiny in comparison to all the alternatives out there and fits easily within a hand. I am sure there'll be even smaller units in the future but this is excellent for now. I would strongly advise against picking up a SPOT unit as it's less reliable and locks one into an US based annual contract. Standard PLBs like the one I bought is good for 7 years with a one-off purchase. In an emergency, you don't want features and alternate applications, you just want the rescuers to hear you and pin-point you and get there ASAP, so stay with the industry standard.

[Chris]

Thanks for all the replies so far. It looks like I'm on the right track, but good point about looking at the eTrex 20 in case I do want to use maps.

if you do a forum search you'll find this has been discussed at length before.
this is just one thread on the subject, you can add any further questions to the relevant threads you find and you should get an answer
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=1709&hilit=locator+beacon+spot

That's my problem Wayne - so much discussion there, which I have read, inwardly digested and distilled to come to my decision.
Just wanted a bit of feedback to make sure I wasn't totally misguided after all that. So far it's worked well.

[wayno]

plb's are the most rock solid devices for reception, better reliability for satellite connection, more bulletproof when wet, long battery life.
dont wear a spot externally, people loose them regularly , ripped off in scrub etc...
spot satellites have an orbit lower to the horizon can have patchy coverage in the steepest terrain when down low.
delorme inreach"s seem to get reasonable reviews. i think they use the same satellites as the spots.

[Ent]

Hi Chris

I support Sthughes comments that an Extrex 20 or better is a handy tool if you want to use maps. Either you can buy commerical maps that are a mixed bag or for a starter use OSM maps, Shonkey, etc free of charge to decide if a mapping GPS is where you want to head. Ironically for ease of use the more expensive touch screen GPS can be a much better for the technical novice compared to the frustrating button driven 60-62S series of Garmins.

A PLB as mentioned by Wayno is a bullet proof device while a Spot can be flakey. Sthughes is starting to die due to substandard case sealing that allows moisture in thus causing problems. My GME PLB has just sat in my pack and when tested still works regardless of the dunkings it has had.

If you like you can drop around and have a look at my GPS setup.

Cheers

[Mark F]

At least I get to use my Spot rather than just have a plb add weight to my pack and finally die of neglect. (; Only one lost message in 4 years (200+ messages sent) and that was in a very deep, steep sided gorge with lots of trees.

[Strider]

At least I get to use my Spot rather than just have a plb add weight to my pack and finally die of neglect. (; Only one lost message in 4 years (200+ messages sent) and that was in a very deep, steep sided gorge with lots of trees.

I think you are missing the point of a PLB. They are carried with the intention to NOT BE USED.

[wayno]

when you need to use a PLB you NEED IT TO BE ASSURED IT WILL WORK AND THAT THE SIGNAL BEING PICKED UP.
statistically i cant tell you what the difference is between spots and plb's and it will vary from person to person , on the terrain they use how much harsh treatment the spot receives. but the anecdotal evidence hands the reliability factor to the plb.
the higher the likelihood you think your trips will mean you may have to end up calling for help. the more compelling the case for a PLB over a communication device... if you get a spot. keep it as dry as possible. and make sure its in good working order before each trip...

[Mark F]

I do understand the point of a plb and I agree that a plb is likely to be slightly more reliable. My point was about risk - frequency vs severity. Having walked for almost 50 years I have never been in a situation that required the use of a plb (touch wood). The few occasions that I have needed a messaging system are for times where I have been out been delayed or exiting a walk at a location other than that intended - neither are appropriate for plb use but the Spot handles them quite well if you have a well thought out and agreed response method (see thread on here somewhere).

Point is that I have used my Spot but could not have used a plb in those situations. If everything goes really pear shaped at some time then I am will to accept a minor decrease in reliability of the Spot as trade off for its greater usability. If I was upgrading I would most probably go for a sat phone rather than a plb.

[sthughes]

I own a Spot Connect, love it and use it all the time. It has had some waterproofing issues of late after the male thread you screw the battery cover on with came out of the main body. None the less if I was a solo walker I would definitely have a PLB as well, a Spot is a substitute, not a replacement. But in my case somebody else in the party always has a PLB on the bigger walks and otherwise a member of the party taking the Spot to somewhere with a clear view of the sky shouldn't be too hard if I get hurt. But like I said, if I was solo and could conceivably break my leg in a canyon and be unable to move, a Spot would be a very second rate solution. But I agree they are quite reliable and the chance of having an emergency AND the Spot not working is very, very low indeed.

Having seen the reliability (or lack there of)of a sat phone first hand in an evac I wouldn't consider them an PLB alternative, more of a Spot alternative at best, or in that case dead weight.

[Strider]

If everything goes really pear shaped at some time then I am will to accept a minor decrease in reliability of the Spot as trade off for its greater usability.

This "greater usability" you speak of is not much use to you if you're dead...

[stepbystep]

If everything goes really pear shaped at some time then I am will to accept a minor decrease in reliability of the Spot as trade off for its greater usability.

This "greater usability" you speak of is not much use to you if you're dead...

Neither is a PLB

[Nuts]

I'm still one for the spot tracking system for solo walkers. Someone posted a link to get it free on the annual subscription. The unit costs a bit more over time but well worth the expense. I'm not sure about multiple dunkings (how does one manage that with a device such as a plb that is stowed away?.. ah, nevermind..) I lost my spot connect but the spot 1 & 2 units seem robust enough. Sat Phone is generally reliable, there is more to it than just extending the antennae and hoping for the best. Well worth learning, I nearly threw ours away before learning a bit more about timing and how they function.

[Strider]

If everything goes really pear shaped at some time then I am will to accept a minor decrease in reliability of the Spot as trade off for its greater usability.

This "greater usability" you speak of is not much use to you if you're dead...

Neither is a PLB

I meant if you die a result of your Spot not being able to broadcast a signal!

[stepbystep]

I meant if you die a result of your Spot not being able to broadcast a signal!

Really? Sorry should have used a sarcasm emoticon.
The beauty of a SPOT is the ability to communicate with loved ones, not important if on a predictable tracked route but off track in remote areas it gives piece of mind to my wife which gives me piece of mind and therefore makes my walk far more enjoyable.
It's up to what the user wants of course and I'm more than happy to take the 1% risk of a failed spot. Chris may not have the need/desire for messaging and so a PLB may suit her better. Of course that won't stop a tree branch dropping on her and her friend while they have a cuppa will it?

[GPSGuided]

But I agree they are quite reliable and the chance of having an emergency AND the Spot not working is very, very low indeed.

And that's the point. In a life and death emergency, you take the equipment that gives you that extra 5%, 10%, 30% or whatever percentage of benefit there is. The only logical choice here is a PLB. If the aim is for regular semi-urgent communication, then SPOT or even a satellite phone. Don't get the two objectives mixed up.

[Chris]

The beauty of a SPOT is the ability to communicate with loved ones, not important if on a predictable tracked route but off track in remote areas it gives piece of mind to my wife which gives me piece of mind and therefore makes my walk far more enjoyable.
It's up to what the user wants of course and I'm more than happy to take the 1% risk of a failed spot. Chris may not have the need/desire for messaging and so a PLB may suit her better. Of course that won't stop a tree branch dropping on her and her friend while they have a cuppa will it?

That's been one of my dilemmas - it would make my husband happier if I could send him messages but if they didn't get there when he expected he would probably panic, so of course I would be worrying about him panicking! . Think I'll stick with sms from phone where possible, as there's no real expectation of it working in the bush - just a bonus when it does.
Not likely to be doing anything very far off track or remote, but will look out for those trees

If you like you can drop around and have a look at my GPS setup.

That's a great offer Brett - will definitely accept thanks. It looks like it's going to be eTrex 20.
Would it be more useful to come round before or after I buy? Will organise via pm.
Cheers, Chris

[andrewbish]

I can recommend the use of a Spot 2 with the additional tracking feature (extra annual fee), which provides automatic location updates that loved ones can follow on Google Maps.

[wayno]

its not uncommon people set up routines to message loved ones with a SPOT, people on here have had situations where they couldnt send messages and set off false alarm because someone waiting for the regular message went to alert emergency services and the bushwalker was then in a rush to get to where they could get out of the bush to avert an unecessary search.
the rougher the tip you are doing the more likely you will need your emergency communication device where you can reach it easily where its not buried in your pack, if you get badly injjured will you be able to get into your pack to get it, you break your back, shoulder, arm and cant get your pack off to get to your communication device ? so the device may have to be exposed and end up getting multiple dunkings... which is what PLB devices are built to withstand. in fact gme won't replace the batteries in their devices, they refuse to do anything that could compromise the waterproofness of their locator beacons. and they give a good warranty to back it up...
the rougher and more remote your trips the bigger the argument for a PLB. the easier your long trips, the SPOT could be argued more in favour. if you cant decide and you can afford it then get both.....

[Nuts]

Statistics would probably favour plb's, i haven't heard of anyone missing out with spot in terms of an actual rescue (?) but yes, they miss the odd tracking point the times I used mine (haven't personally used our spot 2).

If worrying about that 1% that probably also includes the possibility of being separated from your pack (could be something very benign ie going for a squat in the dark) or ending up unconscious for a number of reasons. If solo then there is a tick for spot tracking.

If, as has happened, help isn't in the form of a chopper ride (ie bad weather) or is needed even faster than a flight.. then you'd be wishing for a sat phone or one of the two way messaging devices. Simple medical advice may save the day.

[wayno]

there is an issue when you have set up a schedule to check in with a spot... if for whatever reason no messages are received at the other end then often its planned for the person to raise an alarm and sometimes it turns out its not warranted. as mentioned if the person sending the messages knows they arent getting through then they may have to rush or change their plans to avert a false alarm
with a PLB its black and white.. no signal, no help needed; no worry on either side. if there is a signal then help needed.

[Nuts]

Yeah, i'm not sure about messaging. It has come up before and I recall someone mentioned a pretty foolproof protocol they were using. Probably just not to use spot messaging as part of an alert system I guess?

[wayno]

as pointed out POSTs arent as rock solid in water and people do loose them. unless you're damned sure its not going to get wet and you're not going to loose it. when you are relying on them to transmit at a regular frequency for other peoples peace of mind the reality is its not a totally reliable system

[simonm]

there is an issue when you have set up a schedule to check in with a spot... if for whatever reason no messages are received at the other end then often its planned for the person to raise an alarm and sometimes it turns out its not warranted. as mentioned if the person sending the messages knows they arent getting through then they may have to rush or change their plans to avert a false alarm
with a PLB its black and white.. no signal, no help needed; no worry on either side. if there is a signal then help needed.

Wayno there are also times when a spot would advert a false alarm, such as running late, and able to send through an I'm ok message. There are arguments either way.

With any technology there can be a malfunction e.g. there is cases of plb's self activating, also PLB's allowing water in, obviously with SPOT there are times when the message system sometimes doesn't go through, and also water proof issues - though it would seem that is through a missing screw???, though we haven't heard of any times where it hasn't activated the SOS function - is that right?

I will be getting a SPOT as personally it will give my wife piece of mind as it will let her know I am ok, and the option to leave a trail is in my opinion a positive. However, she also knows if she doesn't get a message then it is more likely to be a SPOT problem, as if I was in real trouble I would activate the SOS function. If however she fails to get a message the next day, then she knows to make a call, and would have all my details of where I am walking, etc to pass on to authorities.

[wayno]

plb's self activiating is often poor design. the activation button should be hidden requiring two seperate actions at least to expose it and set it off,
i saw one on this site and theres just a flap you pull back.
on my fast find theres a sealed lid over it, you have to lift a handle before the hid will come aff and you have to pull it with reasonable force and break the seal for that to happen.
in some cases it may not be a case of which device do i buy, but a case of having both devices to realistically fulfill your needs. just becaues you've never had to set off a device for an emergency in decades doesnt mean you won't, as you get older health issues can loom large that can be life or death if you dont have medical help pretty quickly

[simonm]

plb's self activiating is often poor design. the activation button should be hidden requiring two seperate actions at least to expose it and set it off,
i saw one on this site and theres just a flap you pull back.
on my fast find theres a sealed lid over it, you have to lift a handle before the hid will come aff and you have to pull it with reasonable force and break the seal for that to happen.

I think the one's that self activated were a result of a malfunction rather than the button being pushed.

[wayno]

what are the odds of it setting itself off while you're in the wilderness. . ?
if you register the PLB properly, the emergency services have your contact details and details of three other people. if the beacon is set off they can ring around, if you're not on a trip when it goes off then they will ring you first and you can confirm that its a false alarm. or if they can't get hold of you hopefully one of your friends can confirm you're not out in the wilderness.