Tarkine mining

[corvus]

Plenty of nice Petroglyphs on the Devonport Bluff circuit I walk around them every other day Dan why not come up here and show them together with our other fantastic photogenic Green Belt and plethora of native flora and fauna that is accessible to most ambulatory visitors within the City.
Also what wild life are you looking to "save" regularly we have our Blue Tongue (heaps of small Skinks also) Bandicoots and Wallabies and Rabbits on the lawn, (our resident Plovers are also back) Ring tails on the roof and Brush tails on the Shed even had an unwelcome Copperhead last Summer

But nah you would much rather stir the *&^%$#! and use your fully funded secure trip to produce the images (pity those who are looking for employment in the mines) I guess you sleep well at night
corvus

[stepbystep]

But nah you would much rather stir the *&^%$#! and use your fully funded secure trip to produce the images (pity those who are looking for employment in the mines) I guess you sleep well at night
corvus

That was put together by me for free with donated images shot by myself and another very generous and passionate cinematographer. Yet another ill informed comment on this thread. You are in good form!

A retraction and an apology please Gerry, and then perhaps start a thread on the areas you are passionate about. I won't hold my breath, as it seems taking the *&^%$#! is your schtick!

[clarence]

The NW needs new, progressive industries. This requires investment in both industry reform and education reform.

Could you please name some industries that would actually be viable, and that the hard-line conservationists (including the Tasmanian Greens) would support?

We've had massive Green influence in Federal and Tasmanian parlialments for a longer period now than ever before, and where are we at with these "progressive industries"? If they haven't progressed in the last federal and state electoral cycless, then there is little chance they ever will ever happen. I would dearly like to think these "alternatives" were a reality. However, most of them are not, and the ones that are potentially viable seem to be opposed by the Greens and hard-line conservationists at every chance.

It seems the Greens even oppose agriculture and ecotourism unless it meets the most outrageous guidelines (fish farms and the Pump House Point development being two such examples). I had been a strong supporter of the Greens and conservation movement for many years, but I am now genuinely curious to know what industries they would actually support in Tasmania.

Clarence

[stepbystep]

The NW needs new, progressive industries. This requires investment in both industry reform and education reform.

Could you please name some industries that would actually be viable, and that the hard-line conservationists (including the Tasmanian Greens) would support?

We've had massive Green influence in Federal and Tasmanian parlialments for a longer period now than ever before, and where are we at with these "progressive industries"? If they haven't progressed in the last federal and state electoral cycless, then there is little chance they ever will ever happen. I would dearly like to think these "alternatives" were a reality. However, most of them are not, and the ones that are potentially viable seem to be opposed by the Greens and hard-line conservationists at every chance.

It seems the Greens even oppose agriculture and ecotourism unless it meets the most outrageous guidelines (fish farms and the Pump House Point development being two such examples). I had been a strong supporter of the Greens and conservation movement for many years, but I am now genuinely curious to know what industries they would actually support in Tasmania.

Clarence

Hi Clarence i assume these questions are directed at me.

I'm no spokesperson for The Greens or any conservation group.

I made several suggestions further back in the thread if you care to review, the more open your mind is to it the more options appear. I also get frustrated by the PERCEPTION of anti everything mentalities, sure there's some hard liners but there are far more moderates within both The Greens and most Conservation groups I'm aware of. You simply echo the line pushed by business groups and both the left and right of politics to their own ends, the public has swallowed it as is evidenced by the results of the last federal election. If you have a look at the approach of the new federal government to all environmental policies, be it the Barrier Reef, the Murray-Darling, coal seam gas, the WHA rollbacks and numerous climate/sustainability/environmental bodies etc etc they have scant regard for the state of the environment or the development of progressive industries(R & D funding slashed/scrapped).

It's a difficult problem and as we know evolution doesn't happen in one generation but some of us have faith it will happen, eventually, and commit themselves to that course despite the naysayers.

Lets look at agriculture. We have amongst the best soils and cleanest air in the world in NW Tas, and what happens to the veggies grown? They are canned and frozen!!! Yet another industry struggling to stay viable competing against the low wages, low quality product. Stupid!

World class, no compromise on quality is Tasmania's future in every industry, let the dinosaurs die for goodness sake.

BTW - there is very strong evidence fish farms in their current state do massive environmental damage, the solutions are expensive. But this is a mining thread

[doogs]

I've shared a few units at University over the last couple of years with Aquaculture students and I am happy to say that the issue of environmental damage caused by fish farms is on the curriculum, and I am even happier to say that the current crop of students are a bright bunch who hopefully can work towards more environmentally friendly outcomes when they find employment in the near future.
As SBS has said the North West has some of the best agricultural land in the country with rich volcanic soils and a suitably high rainfall. Unfortunately there can only be so many people employed in this industry but it would be great if some more farmers would stick their necks out and try a few different crops. I recently visited a farm near Ridgely and the farmer combines forestry with a dairy farm and by planting trees he has actually increased the productivity of the farm and has the benefit of a tree crop to harvest every 30 years.
This may upset some but I was always a fan of the idea of having the Gunns Pulp Mill in the NW, but Gunns preferred Bell Bay and ended up in a little bit of bother.

Last edited by doogs on Thu 19 Dec, 2013 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[PeterJ]

.......use your fully funded secure trip to produce the images .................

That was put together by me for free with donated images shot by myself and another very generous and passionate cinematographer. Yet another ill informed comment on this thread. You are in good form!
A retraction and an apology please Gerry ................

I have read several of your posts Corvus, including the one referred to here, and I think you should apologize. Besides once you step where you have gone you have lost the argument.

I understand, like me, you are retired which I hope in your case is fully funded by yourself.

Last edited by PeterJ on Thu 19 Dec, 2013 2:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[MrWalker]

The NW needs new, progressive industries. This requires investment in both industry reform and education reform.

Could you please name some industries that would actually be viable, and that the hard-line conservationists (including the Tasmanian Greens) would support?

I also get frustrated by the PERCEPTION of anti everything mentalities,

If we are going to make any progress we need to work on this perception. The impression the general public gets is that the greens want to shut down everything until the only option left is to reluctantly turn to blueberries, or whatever.

What they need to do is make it easier for any business to operate and it will be easier to start growing and marketing blueberries or anything else that we can reasonably do in Tasmania. My feeling is that if they made it easier for both small and large businesses to function, then these alternative enterprises would have a chance to grow.

[maddog]

Mining? No good due to reasons discussed in this thread.

Plantation Forestry? Unsuitable as the Devil Facial Tumour Disease is caused by cloned transgenic trees (thanks for the link Nuts):

http://west-tamar-talk.blogspot.com.au/ ... aused.html

Note - there are alternative explanations e.g.:

http://www.pnas.org/content/104/41/1622 ... type=HWCIT

Blueberries? Objectionable due to the use of chemical fungicides and organophosphates (insecticides and pesticides) used to protect against various insects and fungus diseases. See:

http://www.sallyjoseph.com.au/blog/woul ... ueberries/

Basket weaving? Should be ok and soon form the basis of this economy.

Cheers

[Clusterpod]

Permaculture

[corvus]

But nah you would much rather stir the *&^%$#! and use your fully funded secure trip to produce the images (pity those who are looking for employment in the mines) I guess you sleep well at night
corvus

That was put together by me for free with donated images shot by myself and another very generous and passionate cinematographer. Yet another ill informed comment on this thread. You are in good form!

A retraction and an apology please Gerry, and then perhaps start a thread on the areas you are passionate about. I won't hold my breath, as it seems taking the *&^%$#! is your schtick!

Dan, as freelancer do you not try to earn from your input ? if not why not? and I have self funded all of my trips into our wonderful bushland for 40 years including the excellent green belts around Devonport .
Yes I got your funding wrong this time mea culpa.
corvus

[corvus]

are in good form!
[b]A retraction and an apology please Gerry /quote]


I have read several of your posts Corvus, including the one referred to here, and I think you should apologize. Besides once you step where you have gone you have lost the argument.

I understand, like me, you are retired which I hope in your case is fully funded by yourself.

Peter ,
Not that is any of your business however I unlike many, was astute enough to look to the long term and invested in Super in 1980 subsequently I was in a position to take early Retirement and self fund having lost $45000.00 from my compulsory Super Fund I did not want to take any further chances so used that Super to withdraw the balance to live on and when I reached the magic Age I put my hand up for the Aged Pension (that my Tax assisted to fund ) and by the way how do you fund your retirement
corvus

[Nuts]

Permaculture, organic farming, these things done on an a large scale and sold to a close market. They sound ideal (to me as well). Any meaningful progress would be too late for saving much?

Last edited by Nuts on Thu 19 Dec, 2013 11:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[pazzar]

are in good form!
[b]A retraction and an apology please Gerry /quote]


I have read several of your posts Corvus, including the one referred to here, and I think you should apologize. Besides once you step where you have gone you have lost the argument.

I understand, like me, you are retired which I hope in your case is fully funded by yourself.

Peter ,
Not that is any of your business however I unlike many, was astute enough to look to the long term and invested in Super in 1980 subsequently I was in a position to take early Retirement and self fund having lost $45000.00 from my compulsory Super Fund I did not want to take any further chances so used that Super to withdraw the balance to live on and when I reached the magic Age I put my hand up for the Aged Pension (that my Tax assisted to fund ) and by the way how do you fund your retirement
corvus

Not that it is any of your business......

PeterJ didn't ask for details - he was just making a point that perhaps you shouldn't jump to conclusions before reacting - no need to have a go.

I'm getting tired of reading through this thread - I feel it is just bashing at any point of view that you don't agree with. Why not deal with these disagreements via PM rather than publicly airing it all?

Having read all the information provided, and reading through what has been said by other members, I can see valid points from all sides, but taking personal attacks in a public forum is a little disappointing to say the least. I'm not here to try and make enemies, or defend friends, but how about we actually debate the issue at hand, and only post here if it is in some way constructive to the argument?

[corvus]

{post removed by admin}

[Nuts]

What they need to do is make it easier for any business to operate and it will be easier to start growing and marketing blueberries or anything else that we can reasonably do in Tasmania. My feeling is that if they made it easier for both small and large businesses to function, then these alternative enterprises would have a chance to grow.

So many people are involved in running a small business. Honestly if you have ever wondered what people do outside of working Tasmania- start one. All nice enough to have coffee with but they just don't realise how their little bit of paperwork, your time, money and patience is only one of So many ongoing hurdles.

Expletive- it seems to me we would be doomed if there actually was green tape (here in Tas), the red tape all but chokes small business from day 1.

[stepbystep]

Must agree with Pazzar, lets play the ball and not the man please.

If you must know I have had several paid jobs in the area along with many others directly or indirectly associated with a tourism and education project in the area. It's called employment and it's a wonderful thing. My conservation work is entirely unpaid. Corvus you asked why. Because I give a *&%$#!.

Back to the ball folks.

[stepbystep]

Permaculture, organic farming, these things done on an a large scale and sold to a close market. They sound ideal (to me as well). Any meaningful progress would be too late for saving much?

Not at all. It's certainly not too late, Shree and Riley are on the fringe if we could stop it at that I would consider it a successful outcome.

There are many farming models that allow commercial production of high end organic/biodynamic/lovedandhugged food products and the Sydney/Melb/Asian markets are there for the taking.

[baeurabasher]

I agree with Pazzar. This thread is not helpful any longer and should be locked. It is becoming cringeworthy to read.

[stepbystep]

I agree with Pazzar. This thread is not helpful any longer and should be locked. It is becoming cringeworthy to read.

I suspect the personal stuff has run it's course but the topic has not so locking it would be a shame.

[maddog]

Permaculture, organic farming, these things done on an a large scale and sold to a close market. They sound ideal (to me as well). Any meaningful progress would be too late for saving much?

Not at all. It's certainly not too late, Shree and Riley are on the fringe if we could stop it at that I would consider it a successful outcome.

There are many farming models that allow commercial production of high end organic/biodynamic/lovedandhugged food products and the Sydney/Melb/Asian markets are there for the taking.

Organics are just fine at a hobby scale (self-sufficient lifestyle, farmers markets, etc). They also have the advantage of making the people involved feel virtuous. However broad scale organic farming is not the same and should be more correctly considered an environmental disaster, causing much damage (plow pans, erosion, weed infestations, etc).

Zero till agriculture, despite heavy use of herbicide, or hydroponics with its small footprint, is more likely to be sustainable in the long run. For this reason, those who think that their support of organic products purchased through supermarkets will lead to positive environmental outcomes should think a little more about the real issue of land degradation.

It is difficult to believe that Tasmanians will be able to continue to enjoy first world standards of living without either industry or subsidy from the mainland.

Cheers

[Nuts]

Perhaps I have a little more faith in technology for sustainable agriculture. These changes really do need to happen, regardless of immediate usefulness. I'd say that single flood event at Savage R. and the resulting sediment load would be repeated many times over along the coast. So much top soil is lost every time we get heavy rain (and who knows what washes out with it).

I too find myself thinking that high end produce can only ever be a partial solution, maybe not even of a scale to be considered the same industry. Definitely, farming would be transformed from providing a necessity to products subject to fickle discretionary income, as is the case with tourism.

Looking around, taking an interest in the loss of industry iv'e personally not been convinced by trade agreements. Others may have figures or more than a vague idea of the overall benefit these have been to such 'essential' industries in the region?

[maddog]

If you have faith in technology in technology for sustainable agriculture, over a broad scale, we are talking zero-till, not organics. Broad-scale organic farming is farming with the plow, and the plow belongs to the past. People fall in love with the idea of organics and dream a myth of a chemical free world. They fail to realise that erosion, the sedimentation of creeks and waterways, and the destruction of soil structure all follow the plow. Nobody who truly cares for the soil would ever buy broad-scale organic produce.

Zero-till offers us the ability to retain organic matter on the soil surface, to protect soil from erosion, to minimise the sedimentation of creeks and waterways, and protect the structure of soil. But it is not organic. It relies on technology, on chemicals. Nobody pays more for a herbicide crop and nor should they.

See for more detail:

http://www.motherearthnews.com/homestea ... z2nz4RNMpj

Organic produce costs more, offers no nutritional benefit, but the idea does makes people feel good. As with the threat of cloned transgenic trees, and other issues, many enjoy imagining illusory benefit and harm. But we cannot build a future on myth and enjoying illusions. Organic farming represents the past, not the future.

Cheers

[Clusterpod]

Permaculture isn't really organic farming, and shouldn't be confused as such.

[Nuts]

This year I have vegies growing pesticide free and with naturally occurring fertilizers in a medium largely of recycled plastic and glass. Relying on sheet mulch so no herbicides either, anything is possible. I'm going to find it difficult to relate this leg of discussion to any realistic purpose, we should have been forced to make changes long ago ('us' through consumer demand or 'control' perhaps.. not them (NW vegie farmers), their role should merely be a response).

Last edited by Nuts on Fri 20 Dec, 2013 9:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[corvus]

Must agree with Pazzar, lets play the ball and not the man please.

If you must know I have had several paid jobs in the area along with many others directly or indirectly associated with a tourism and education project in the area. It's called employment and it's a wonderful thing. My conservation work is entirely unpaid. Corvus you asked why. Because I give a *&%$#!.

Back to the ball folks.

Dan,
Glad you do give a *&%$#! as I do and happy to know it, we just do not agree on many things (except your excellent photography and live footage) which is a factor of our Democracy and in my debating society years subtle playing of the man was a legit tactic just like our sledging of the Poms on the VICTORIOUS Ashes WIN BACK
Will give this thread a miss now in deference to those who did not like my repartee and wish you all a Happy Christmas and look forward to the New Year.
corvus

[photohiker]

in my debating society years subtle playing of the man was a legit tactic just like our sledging of the Poms on the VICTORIOUS Ashes WIN BACK

I would point out that the rules do not approve such behaviour, despite what a Debating or Cricket team may find acceptable:

1. Keep all content friendly, polite and clean. 'Flaming', hostility, insults, obscenity, abuse and personal attacks are not permitted. Offending content may result in official warnings or bannings (or other moderation - see moderation guidelines below). In particular:

Debate should be about the topic under discussion and not about any person(s) (involved in the discussion or otherwise).

[clarence]

I will withdraw from all comment on this subject, as I find the comments and attitudes of certain contibutors to be verging on offensive.

Feel free to rant about me in my absence from the topic.

No point giving a *&%$#! about the environment when you don't give a "rats" about other people.

Clarence

[maddog]

Permaculture isn't really organic farming, and shouldn't be confused as such.

Permaculture is a fun idea, a feel good concept with a frightening legacy of weeds. The idea has been around for a while but has failed to progress to the mainstream, remaining at the margins of society (unlike the soil destroying organic movement). The produce attracts no premium in the market, with the practitioners subsistence lifestyle, more often than not, relying on supplementary transfer payments. Permaculture embraced as an economic alternative to mining and forestry would only confirm Tasmania's status as the Basket State.

Cheers

[Nuts]

I'm still back on the Tarkine.com page. I had thoughts that the road being opened, even without increased local infrastructure couldn't be seen as a positive in the effect on Devil numbers. I wonder what would happen as interest is generated, potentially diverting 200,000 tourists on their way from Cradle to Strahan. I think about the impact of centres such as Cradle, the numbers of jobs and the nature of the 'community'. It's hard to see the positives, especially when the alternative is still just digging holes. Sure there are what-if's though it's hard to even mention such loose-loose situations.

Maybe there is something positive in examining the statements about exploration licences (EL). T.com's source, Bob, calls them mining applications:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/o ... rkine-mine

Strictly speaking they aren't really permits to mine. From what iv'e seen in WA, ELs are commodities in themselves, companies meet minimum requirements to keep them active.. sometimes just so they hold the land. They might drive a few survey pegs or eventually drill a few test holes from year to year.They most likely know that some of them, perhaps many, will never see more than this token effort. So there is time, especially so if commodity prices fall. Even if covering currently viable ground, they are simply permits to 'have a look'.

This becomes obvious right from the title of the Licence conditions. They aren't focussed on 'the most' companies can do.. In Tassie:
http://www.mrt.tas.gov.au/pls/portal/do ... TMENTS.PDF

Also, the number (57 edit: 58 : http://tarkine.org/mining/ ) gets a mention. I would have thought that those getting upset about the numbers would have taken a quick look at what they comprise. They are numbers mostly impressive on paper, as can be seen- the areas vary in size and are stacked. If they were all widely separated this could be more concerning, otherwise they may have the same potential impact as one large EL (the viable country still being where it physically is..)? Surely the EL versus actual digging also gains some sort of hopeful context when considering statewide Tassie exploration:

Screen Shot 2013-12-21 at 8.36.18 AM.png (618.32 KiB) Viewed 12070 times

Contrast this to leases:

Screen Shot 2013-12-22 at 9.41.45 AM.png (588.28 KiB) Viewed 11985 times

[maddog]

From an interesting essay 'Obstacles to progress: Whats wrong with Tasmania, really?'

The underlying problem is simple but intractable: Tasmania has developed a way of life, a mode of doing things, a demographic, a culture and associated economy, that reproduces under-achievement generation after generation. Everyone knows the problems; they are manifest, reported day after day. The reality is that Tasmania has bred a dominant social coalition that blocks most proposals to improve. Problems and challenges are debated endlessly, with no resolution. Most discussion avoids mention of the uncomfortable truths at the source of under-performance. Ultimately, Tasmania doesn’t change because its people don’t really want to. They don’t need to change because their way of life is mainly financed by the mainland. Far from helping overcome this pattern, the nation’s resource boom prosperity is enabling and cementing Tasmania’s under-achievement. It’s allowing the government to pay an ever-expanding proportion of the population not to work; it’s driving up wages, materials, transport, regulation, exchange rates, and other costs that make Tasmania’s traditional industries uncompetitive; and it’s allowing government to subsidise non-performing industries. The result is that Tasmanians face little incentive or pressure to change. Unlike New Zealand, which has no rich big brother and must find ways to earn its own living, Tasmania enjoys a permanent and ongoing transfer from mainland cousins that reinforces failure.

http://griffithreview.com/images/storie ... ogress.pdf

Cheers