700 METRES (multiple image warning)

[corvus]

The problem as I see it is that any time as a forum member I mention the good things that FT have done I am immediately dumped upon from a great height however when I access areas like The Arm River Track I am thankful for the road into the track head.
I will reiterate that I have no axe to grind (being retired)and have been a consevationist for many years with an Organic Vegi Garden , Now a Natural Gas user, water,cooking and heat,4 cylinder car and will walk to the shop rather than drive.

It is a pity that we cannot come to a happy medium with this sensitive topic.
c

[flyfisher]

Forestry tas have undoubtedly made easier access to areas such as the upper Arm river and upper Mersey but the roads were not built for us but as a means to an end.
We really don't have so much easier access to wilderness because the wilderness (in the real sense of the word) has moved away as roads get closer. A classic case is Lake Pedder which is no longer a prized destination due to road access.
The south coast track is very popular and has minimal road access which was there (to Cockle creek) when I was a 20 year old.with Rose Adams living in the house at the end of the road.
The point I am making here is that road access is not the main reason for walks being popular.Obviously people will use the shortest access available when today's time constraints are a factor. Working out the logistics of a major adventure is often quite a bit of fun and if the planning is successful then the sense of achievement is increased.
Back to the origional post, it really is a pity that there is not more sensitivity when logging close to popular tourist roads. BTW I am not anti FT but I do think they are arrogant and uncaring in this regard.
As far as the discussion goes "we must agree to differ in all friendship you and I" Sometimes we like to state a point of view but certainly not mean to be offensive to anybody

Flyfisher

[stepbystep]

Thanks DA and the rest,

I agree that THE debate is dominated by extreme views.
Forestry IS a renewable resource BUT the decisions made by bureaucrats leads to incredibly destructive practices.
'Old growth IS off limits!'
I love working with timber and the older the better, BUT you have to make a decision where you buy it from?
So far I have survived using recycled stuff, but IS there a resource to find recycled timber to progress renovations etc....
I'm in Hobart, would love to find resources.
Thanks

Sorry guys. didn't see page 2.

FT has provided access and this is welcome BUT the gov. of the day needs to be totally transparent and promote wilderness areas and their access roads, and it would be nice if all the roads to 'state' forests weren't locked off to the state!!! Hmmmmm

[flyfisher]

it would be nice if all the roads to 'state' forests weren't locked off to the state!!! Hmmmmm

That's my opinion too stepbystep. Off the Marlborough hywy. between Great lake and Bronte virtually every road and track is locked up giving the feeling that you are not welcome so don't stop or get out of the car or else. Trespassers prosecuted signs are everywhere, looks fantastic for our tourists. But then we don't want tourism competing with forestry, do we.

ff

[stepbystep]

it would be nice if all the roads to 'state' forests weren't locked off to the state!!! Hmmmmm

That's my opinion too stepbystep. Off the Marlborough hywy. between Great lake and Bronte virtually every road and track is locked up giving the feeling that you are not welcome so don't stop or get out of the car or else. Trespassers prosecuted signs are everywhere, looks fantastic for our tourists. But then we don't want tourism competing with forestry, do we.

ff

Don't forget the 'trespassers will be shot' signs. I tried to find my way up Dromedary near Hobart recently and got threatened with killer dogs & being shot, this was 5 mins from a meditation camp....soooooo peaceful!
I had some friends here recently, and they were blown away by the lack of interest in their adventure(2 mths thru SW tas, CM & the walls) they used all tracks

Ahhhhh, the peace

[dee_legg]

because the wilderness (in the real sense of the word)
Flyfisher

Really interested to know what your and any one elses take is on what wilderness is?
I'm trying to gauge a further understaning of what definition of wilderness is at the moment at uni and i'd appreciate anyones ideas...
bit off topic i know so if this gets ignore, it's all good.

[johnw]

Really interested to know what your and any one elses take is on what wilderness is?
I'm trying to gauge a further understaning of what definition of wilderness is at the moment at uni and i'd appreciate anyones ideas...

It's a actually a tough question Dee. I think it's important to recognise that there are both "official" definitions of wilderness and philosophical ones. For example up here in NSW the current official view is contained in the Wilderness Act 1987 No 196 which states (among other things):

http://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/viewtop/inforce/act+196+1987+FIRST+0+N
Part 2 Section 6
6 Identification of wilderness

(1) An area of land shall not be identified as wilderness by the Director unless the Director is of the opinion that:
(a) the area is, together with its plant and animal communities, in a state that has not been substantially modified by humans and their works or is capable of being restored to such a state,
(b) the area is of a sufficient size to make its maintenance in such a state feasible, and
(c) the area is capable of providing opportunities for solitude and appropriate self-reliant recreation.

Very dry and bureaucratic but I pretty much agree with (a). I haven't found a Tassie equivalent of this (apart from nominating specific areas like the TWWHA) but I'm sure there will be something similar.

As for philosophical definitions, that seems to vary greatly from person to person. I know that some people will say that you must be at least 2 days walk away from any road, track or other human development before it can be considered wilderness. On that basis I doubt that I've ever entered it, but many of the places I've been, in my opinion, are wilderness. I think that wilderness is more a feeling of remoteness and isolation in a landscape that is substantially untouched, visibly and audibly, by human civilisation. Size is less relevant but smaller areas are less likely to achieve that feeling unless physically isolated somehow, such as rugged terrain resulting in visual barriers and reasonably difficult, foot only, access. I walk in some places like this and one or two of them are declared wilderness areas. So, to me, it's more about what feels like wilderness when I'm there. My 2 cents.

[Son of a Beach]

I've always considered 'wilderness' to be defined by the origins of the word, and therefore defined as "a wild place". But then what does 'wild' mean? Well, to me it means "non-tamed" or "non-domesticated". So in terms of wilderness that would mean that there is not much evidence of human activity.

Maybe I should look up 'wild' in the dictionary... "living or growing in the natural environment; not domesticated or cultivated".

The same dictionary defines 'wilderness' as, "an uncultivated, uninhabited, and inhospitable region".

[Ent]

Content removed by poster

[dee_legg]

Thanks guys. Great to hear other peoples thoughts.
I've always considering a lot of South West Tasmania to be considered wilderness, and it fits the bills nicely for a lot of definitions but then like many places that are now wild and uninhabited, this wasn't always the case and then I guess in this situation, we (western society) have created this wilderness by removing its original inhabitants.
My lecturer tells me this was a common theme through the United States and Ireland once upon a time.
To me, wilderness is more of a feeling than anything else.. If I stand on Mt Eliza and look south east, that gives a feeling of wilderness but if I turn around I see a big man made lake and a dirt road...
The way I've described it in the past is 'a place that is governed purely by the actions and results of natural processes'
I also love this quote from Francois Peron, 1802- "It is the most extraordinary thing to see that these dense forests, ancient daughters of nature and time, where the noise of the axe is never heard, and where the vegetation is richer each day from its own products, can extend unimpeded everywhere..." which i found in the front cover of this years Wilderness Society Diary.

[E.G.]

The concept of wilderness is very personal and it is great to see an intelligent debate about it. I personally don't like to see it described in absolutes such as 'untouched', which is used too often with 'wilderness'. This then makes it a little like Heizenberg's Uncertainty Principle in that the act of being in an untouched wilderness then stops it being a wilderness as it has been impacted in some way by us being there.

The idea of wilderness has changed greatly over the centuries in that it was considered a wild and dangerous place to be avoided. Now we embrace wilderness as a respite from urban lives. And what a wonderful antidote it is.

To pick up an earlier comment, we have taken a maintained landscape and driven out its custodians. It is now changing from what was first seen by Europeans and becoming wilderness with changing vegetation and animal habitation. The park-like plains so loved by the VDL explorers were not a result of nature alone. To use the Pelion Plains as an example, this was a summer hunting area of thousands of years and burnt to ensure plenty of game. Was it wilderness then? Later it was cattle grazing land and burnt for the same reasons. Now it is not maintained and the forest is taking over the edges of the plains, the grasses have changed and wildlife numbers are much lower than reported in the past.

I think we need to appreciate that most of the time there is a human impact in any landscape, whether overt or not, and that it does not always degrade the landscape (if it does we should not have tracks!) We rarely experience the extremes of the spectrum of condition of land that goes from untouched wilderness to concrete wasteland but dwell in between. Sometimes even a tree is enough to calm the soul.

[ashlee]

So there is this...

Tasmania has some beautiful places.
It's such a shame the ugly side is so in your face when getting to them.
What is wrong with these people - do they do this deliberately? It sure seems like it, like, the tourists come and see clearfelling, plantation, burn-off and so on, and it is so in their face that they get desensitised to it and accept it as normal - or so "they" want us to believe perhaps.
I just don't get it, how such an ugly mess is so unavoidable when visiting such a tourist drawcard.

FT and the state government spew so much crap about 'clean green' and 'sustainable' that tourists genuinely believe it... If my memory serves me correctly, Liffey Falls is world heritage listed. Has anyone done the walk from the bottom carpark to the falls? The bush is a disgrace. Never have I seen so many environmental weeds in one place (well, maybe Boast Harbour Beach lol). I actually remember going on a class excursion a few years back and we were going to Liffey Falls, we couldn't get in because FT had made such a mess with the clearfelling that it was literally unsafe, signs said so. The had logged so close to the boundary that pressure was put on the remaining trees because they were so exposed..

[tasadam]

Has anyone done the walk from the bottom carpark to the falls? The bush is a disgrace. Never have I seen so many environmental weeds in one place.

Yes, done that walk and it was nice, but like you say there are a lot of plants that don't belong there.
How could that happen?
Have a look at the first post (photos), 700 metres up from the World "Heritage" area is logging and clearfell and Foxgloves.
And I suppose Forestry sell that off to the tourists as "And you can see all the pretty flowers"...

[ashlee]

it would be nice if all the roads to 'state' forests weren't locked off to the state!!! Hmmmmm

That's my opinion too stepbystep. Off the Marlborough hywy. between Great lake and Bronte virtually every road and track is locked up giving the feeling that you are not welcome so don't stop or get out of the car or else. Trespassers prosecuted signs are everywhere, looks fantastic for our tourists. But then we don't want tourism competing with forestry, do we.

ff

That's just it!! They're our forests but yet we get prosecuted for 'trespass'. It's ridiculous.

[ashlee]

Has anyone done the walk from the bottom carpark to the falls? The bush is a disgrace. Never have I seen so many environmental weeds in one place.

Yes, done that walk and it was nice, but like you say there are a lot of plants that don't belong there.
How could that happen?
Have a look at the first post (photos), 700 metres up from the World "Heritage" area is logging and clearfell and Foxgloves.
And I suppose Forestry sell that off to the tourists as "And you can see all the pretty flowers"...

Yeah by memory I think there were foxgloves everywhere on that walk! Sounds to me like someone isn't cleaning their machinery properly!

[flyfisher]

Sounds to me like someone isn't cleaning their machinery properly!

You would be horrified by the scotch thistles on the Styx road towards the big trees..2 metres wide strips around 1 metre high.Amazing.

I've got some pics somewhere, I'll see if I can find them.

ff

[Taurë-rana]

I've never actually seen foxgloves spreading, they seem to appear in clearings in the bush left over from logging but don't spread into the surrounding bush. I've seen them in previously logged areas in lots of places in Aus.
Slightly off topic, there are stinging nettles in the bush in places which I thought were introduced until I read an account of settlers in the North Motton area encountering huge nettles that could kill a horse they were so bad. I'm glad we don't see them bushwalking very often!

[corvus]

Interesting comment from Peter Cundall is that Stinging Nettles love to grow in really fertile soil!! so how come they are in abundance (and strong)on the downside of Twin Spires opposite Wadleys Hut ??
c

[tasadam]

Corvus the way I read your comment is that they really love fertile soil. Doesn't mean they won't grow elsewhere. Well, you asked....

[johnw]

Interesting comment from Peter Cundall is that Stinging Nettles love to grow in really fertile soil!! so how come they are in abundance (and strong)on the downside of Twin Spires opposite Wadleys Hut ??
c

That's near Lees Paddocks isn't it? Cow pats? Don't know if the same species as the Tassie ones but we have a lot of them growing up here along Carlons Creek on the fringe of the Wild Dog Mtns (among many other places). Vigorous growth in the past due to horses.

[corvus]

Could well be the answer and I believe that Stinging Nettles only ever occur where human existence has occurred.
These Nettles are well above where I would expect stock to be but they may have been extra hungry.
c

[corvus]

Corvus the way I read your comment is that they really love fertile soil. Doesn't mean they won't grow elsewhere. Well, you asked....

Adam,
They prefer an area that has been fertilised one way or an other .
c

[Taurë-rana]

I was under the impression from the way it read that the nettles at North Motton were there before white people, and I don't know that the aboriginals would have brought them with them?

[walkinTas]

Tasmania has two species of stinging nettle, Urtica incisa (native stinging nettle or scrub nettle), and the introduced species Urtica urens (small stinging nettle). Urtica incisa is native to Eastern and Southeastern Australia.

Urtica incisa is widespread and will often appear in an area that has been disturbed. They grow in open moist woodlands or on the sunny edge of rainforests in dapple shade, or in forest clearings especially in soils with good nitrogen content - dislikes heavy shade. They are a perennial herb and so die down to a root stock in winter.

Urtica urens is an annual weed. It is spread by cattle and birds and so appears in stockyards and on bird rookeries. It will grow in just about any soil, (sandy soil, loamy soil and clay soil) at a wide range of pH from acid through neutral to basic. They prefer light shade to open ground with moist and nitrogen rich soil.

[corvus]

Tasmania has two species of stinging nettle, Urtica incisa (native stinging nettle or scrub nettle), and the introduced species Urtica urens (small stinging nettle). Urtica incisa is native to Eastern and Southeastern Australia.

Urtica incisa is widespread and will often appear in an area that has been disturbed. They grow in open moist woodlands or on the sunny edge of rainforests in dapple shade, or in forest clearings especially in soils with good nitrogen content - dislikes heavy shade. They are a perennial herb and so die down to a root stock in winter.

Urtica urens is an annual weed. It is spread by cattle and birds and so appears in stockyards and on bird rookeries. It will grow in just about any soil, (sandy soil, loamy soil and clay soil) at a wide range of pH from acid through neutral to basic. They prefer light shade to open ground with moist and nitrogen rich soil.

Great information wT and explains a lot.
c

[ashlee]

Sounds to me like someone isn't cleaning their machinery properly!

You would be horrified by the scotch thistles on the Styx road towards the big trees..2 metres wide strips around 1 metre high.Amazing.

I've got some pics somewhere, I'll see if I can find them.

ff

On the south arthur drive in the Tarkine I've actually spotted spanish heath!! And lots of it! That stuff produces seed like nothing else! But no work has been done...

[ashlee]

I've never actually seen foxgloves spreading, they seem to appear in clearings in the bush left over from logging but don't spread into the surrounding bush. I've seen them in previously logged areas in lots of places in Aus.
Slightly off topic, there are stinging nettles in the bush in places which I thought were introduced until I read an account of settlers in the North Motton area encountering huge nettles that could kill a horse they were so bad. I'm glad we don't see them bushwalking very often!

The'ye not native though and would have to get there somewhow. On the track from the lower carpark to Liffey Falls the bush is full of weeds and in pretty bad condition anyways with massive clearings etc... I'd say that they came in on machinery or something...

[SurferShane]

Unfortunately I have seen the exact same thing adjacent the main road on the border of (if not in) the Barrington Tops National Park not far west of the old Barrington House near Dungog. The place rejuvenated fairly quickly, albeit the weeds that were probably introduced by cars driving through nearby farmland.

Regardless, I was dumbfounded that they would leave such a scar in plain view on a tourist drive. Then I was just as dumbfounded that my local “greenies” were getting on the interstate campaign bandwagon when this kind of stuff was happening right in our backyard.

(If I can find them I will add a photo of the near identical senario)

[north-north-west]

re the weeds: Parks don't have the money, and Forestry don't gave a you-know what.