Walking in areas of significance to Tradtional Owners

[Nuts]

I haven't been up there in a long time Corvus, even avoid when walking the dog. Last time I did see it, with visitors, the car was vandalised (nothing at all to do with aboriginal people..)
Yes, it's a shame to hear the place isn't the best. Such a nice part of town that area.

You probably have a good understanding of the area and local issues in SA geoskid? I'm sure you'd, by any account, show a commendable level of consideration making such a choice for yourself. Perhaps everyone is as thoughtful, even the quickly dismissive. Hard to tell without a personal exposé.

I wonder what attitudes are at cross purposes with St Mary's peak. There clearly are local people with sincere respect for their culture and history. There's a chance they might drag themselves out there for a quick $ from tourists, fame on Y-tube, not sincere at all? If accepting it's not always that, it's possible some are simply exercising their 'responsibility' to pass on their story, the challenge is the clash of our right/ comparative value of our right to climb 'the highest peak'. They seem feeble comparisons to me but then all our attitudes are such a mixed bag, individually shaped.

[geoskid]

You probably have a good understanding of the area and local issues in SA geoskid?

No, not at all. What has that got to do with anyone making requests of others based on their creation myths.
You obviously don't have a concern with people believing, literally, creation myths in this day and age and making prescriptive requests based on them.

Thats really what we are talking about here.

I wonder how that type of thinking hinders conservation efforts. Does this type of thinking help explain the yawning apathy towards climate change action.

Rights - there's a problem here with peoples understanding of rights.

[Nuts]

I actually just thought you would have been there! (he said.. yawning apathetically )

[simonm]

No, not at all. What has that got to do with anyone making requests of others based on their creation myths.
You obviously don't have a concern with people believing, literally, creation myths in this day and age and making prescriptive requests based on them.

Thats really what we are talking about here.

I wonder how that type of thinking hinders conservation efforts. Does this type of thinking help explain the yawning apathy towards climate change action.

Rights - there's a problem here with peoples understanding of rights.

Perhaps there is also an issue with people's understanding of respect. I don't have to respect the totality of a persons beliefs, and I can certainly respectfully disagree with some of their beliefs, and engage them in discussion about it. Sometimes I need to consider that whilst I disagree it may not be until I speak with that person that I get a clearer picture of what their beliefs are, rather than my initial perceptions from afar, through my own lens clouded by my own conditioning and experiences in life.

There also seems to be some flawed generalisation of Aboriginal people not being able to engage in critical thinking, and somehow just blindly going along following tradition - this is not my experience. Aboriginal people have had to bridge a gap between black and white culture that can be a very challenging process and at times damaging. As a white person I don't have to compromise my cultural values because my culture is dominant and if anything conflicts with it we try to suppress it. God forbid we actually have to compromise and not go up a mountain.

[geoskid]

I actually just thought you would have been there! (he said.. yawning apathetically )

I've been there Nuts. The first 18 years of my life was in SA, 2 trips to the Flinders, but I don't pretend that equates to a good understanding of the local issues. More importantly it is not necessary for the point of my post.

Your not trying to crash the train because you don't like where it's heading, are you?

[geoskid]

No, not at all. What has that got to do with anyone making requests of others based on their creation myths.
You obviously don't have a concern with people believing, literally, creation myths in this day and age and making prescriptive requests based on them.

Thats really what we are talking about here.

I wonder how that type of thinking hinders conservation efforts. Does this type of thinking help explain the yawning apathy towards climate change action.

Rights - there's a problem here with peoples understanding of rights.

Perhaps there is also an issue with people's understanding of respect. I don't have to respect the totality of a persons beliefs, and I can certainly respectfully disagree with some of their beliefs, and engage them in discussion about it. Sometimes I need to consider that whilst I disagree it may not be until I speak with that person that I get a clearer picture of what their beliefs are, rather than my initial perceptions from afar, through my own lens clouded by my own conditioning and experiences in life.

There also seems to be some flawed generalisation of Aboriginal people not being able to engage in critical thinking, and somehow just blindly going along following tradition - this is not my experience. Aboriginal people have had to bridge a gap between black and white culture that can be a very challenging process and at times damaging. As a white person I don't have to compromise my cultural values because my culture is dominant and if anything conflicts with it we try to suppress it. God forbid we actually have to compromise and not go up a mountain.

This does not address my post, it skirts it.
So be it.

I'll withdraw from this thread. I only had a couple of points and I think i've pushed them far enough.
It's a fascinating subject.

[simonm]

This does not address my post, it skirts it.
So be it.

I'll withdraw from this thread. I only had a couple of points and I think i've pushed them far enough.
It's a fascinating subject.

I am a well known skirter from way back, I can even skirt the skirting . Rather than addressing your post I guess I was trying to add to it.

I agree it is fascinating, and well worth exploring.

[Nuts]

I actually just thought you would have been there! (he said.. yawning apathetically )

I've been there Nuts. The first 18 years of my life was in SA, 2 trips to the Flinders, but I don't pretend that equates to a good understanding of the local issues. More importantly it is not necessary for the point of my post.

You're not trying to crash the train because you don't like where it's heading, are you?

No, I just have an interest in the places and new stories, not so much alternate esoterics.
I realise that these aren't 'all' but then the topic wasn't 'good reasons to ignore significance to traditional owners'.

You're not crashing the train cause of lack of interest in discussing what you think we should discus or how we should be thinking Think it, discuss it... Go..
Do you have in mind any particular place or story? Or it's simply an affront to a non-creationist viewpoint, nothing really tangible?
Either way, meanwhile, I'd still choose to take my shoes off at the door of a temple, bow in the isle of a church, show similar respect even if i considered followers thinking was 'flawed'.

I wonder if the Adnyamathanha would have kept their secret if the mere fact of being the highest peak didn't attract visitors?
(ie. those worshiping the god of (i dunno)- self gratification, lists, geocaches...)

[geoskid]

You're not crashing the train cause of lack of interest in discussing what you think we should discus or how we should be thinking Think it, discuss it... Go..

Pretty much, except I'm hopping off rather than crashing.
I find it harder to walk past incoherence than some, my own keeps me busy enough.

[Nuts]

haha- Yes, that's been mentioned before. Is it the whole contribution this time or just that line? It did take some effort, pleanty of openings there other talking about me and you.
While I hesitate to suggest I agree or know what you are on about, as far as I recall, i'm usually the one questioning the sentiment in conservation issues..
It's going to be no consolation but i'll choose to only reach a level of frustrated amusement on here at worst. I have a spare hanky?

[whitefang]

Well, I didn't summit St. Mary's Peak... not because I didn't want to, but because it was windy, rainy and the clouds were so low I couldn't even see it from Tanderra Saddle. I was getting soaked and cold and decided it was time to head back down into the pound. I wonder if the 76 school kids I passed still tried to summit. They looked pretty miserable and cold sitting up on one of the most exposed parts of the trail...

[geoskid]

haha- Yes, that's been mentioned before. Is it the whole contribution this time or just that line? It did take some effort, pleanty of openings there other talking about me and you.
While I hesitate to suggest I agree or know what you are on about, as far as I recall, i'm usually the one questioning the sentiment in conservation issues..
It's going to be no consolation but i'll choose to only reach a level of frustrated amusement on here at worst. I have a spare hanky?

Sorry Nuts, I did'nt mean you are incoherent, I meant the situation surrounding St Marys Peak seems incoherent to me, yet most seem to be able to walk straight past that and get right onto the justifying of the request.
I'm jumping off the discussion because I've bogged the discussion down over it enough, and I'll work on the seeming incoherence myself.
I'm not having a dummy spit. Thanks for the offer of the hanky, but i'm a bit partial to the bushy-blow.

[Nuts]

Actually.. I wasn't being entirely honest, i'd be less than amused (with myself) if I did manage to have you choose to spit-a-dummy.
As I suspected though, you're a bush blower!!

Well done whitefang, well left by all accounts?

[walkerchris77]

My 2 year old always spits the dummy.

[aaronhann85]

the Adnyamathanha people prefer people not to summit St. Mary's Peak as it is central to their creation story.

Wilpena visitors centre should be able to help you what that info, some of the rangers might have ties and be able to assist with clarification or permission.

I've been up there numerous times, and never heard this before, going back maybe 10 - 15 years.

Maybe whitefang spoke to the 'new' owners. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-06-06/w ... se/4054714

I feel for the aboriginal people for the destruction we brought them but if us anglos didn't walk on any ground sacred to them we would still be on a ship at Pt Jackson.

[GPSGuided]

I feel for the aboriginal people for the destruction we brought them but if us anglos didn't walk on any ground sacred to them we would still be on a ship at Pt Jackson.

Not sure where you are going with that last line. But it's analogous to bursting into another's house and taking over the lounge room. Question is, does one then proceed to take over the whole house and leave the original owner no private space?

[walkerchris77]

Dont know why all the white bashing. If your white and not happy being Australian then go live somewhere else . I heard gaza nice. And if the british did not arrive here then dont you think someone else would ???? Or do u think every other country in the world would be nice and leave the country alone.

Im *&%$#! proud to be Australian, my wife and child are Australian. I treat people equal. I dont give a fat rats clacker what colour you are. Yes aborigines were here first and its in our history and now there are muslims, greeks, italians, African s, latin american, new Zealand s etc. Its a mixed bag and we are all stuck here so let enjoy this great country.

ill be at the brumbuk aborigine cultural center in halls gap this tuesday to. Showing some overseas guests around. Great place halls gap.

[icefest]

All I can add to this conversation:

Street art around Melbourne

[walkerchris77]

A bit late. Lol

[greyim]

"to the best of my knowledge have never been vandalised"

True or false I don't know, here's a story Corvus. My once neighbor (now deceased) liked to tell the story of adding significantly to these as a schoolboy...

[neil_fahey]

I also find the "it's my land too" argument a bit sad. It's exactly like saying someone else's backyard is 'your land too'. Would you have a party in a church and say 'it's my land too'?

I was fortunate enough to spend a day with an Aboriginal elder recently (I'm just in the process of writing a blog post about it now). He told us that some Aboriginal clans actually believe that 'spirit babies' come down with the rain and belong to the land they're born to (us Anglo-Aussies included), which I think is a beautiful concept. He also had a whole lot to say about how everyone's differing beliefs in this country shouldn't be any kind of problem, so long as we have mutual respect. I couldn't agree more.

To me, one example of showing that respect is choosing not to climb Uluru. It's not even banned there, but politely requested. The way some people react to it,it's as if they want to climb it just to say "stuff 'em". I walked around the base of Uluru instead and I really can't see how climbing it would have been a better (or even equal experience). It's one of the best short walks, scenery-wise, that I've ever done. What an incredible place.

EDIT: Forgot to check the "Notify me..." box. Also, just realised there was more than one page to this thread. Got some more reading to do.

[vicrev]

I also find the "it's my land too" argument a bit sad. It's exactly like saying someone else's backyard is 'your land too'. Would you have a party in a church and say 'it's my land too'?

I was fortunate enough to spend a day with an Aboriginal elder recently (I'm just in the process of writing a blog post about it now). He told us that some Aboriginal clans actually believe that 'spirit babies' come down with the rain and belong to the land they're born to (us Anglo-Aussies included), which I think is a beautiful concept. He also had a whole lot to say about how everyone's differing beliefs in this country shouldn't be any kind of problem, so long as we have mutual respect. I couldn't agree more.

To me, one example of showing that respect is choosing not to climb Uluru. It's not even banned there, but politely requested. The way some people react to it,it's as if they want to climb it just to say "stuff 'em". I walked around the base of Uluru instead and I really can't see how climbing it would have been a better (or even equal experience). It's one of the best short walks, scenery-wise, that I've ever done. What an incredible place.

EDIT: Forgot to check the "Notify me..." box. Also, just realised there was more than one page to this thread. Got some more reading to do.

Mmmm...Well said, neil_fahey.....respect & tolerance...having said that,maybe I am just being old fashioned, & should rocket into todays world...me...me...stuff your religion/beliefs/totem pole/pile of rocks....I am more important .....selfishness is the true God in today's world..shame ....

[Nuts]

Yet with an increasing number of lease or concession, the gods of $ and influence demand contemporary 'owners' capitulate as well, and it seems we will, at least to some degree. Only it will be done our way! Little bits of Prohibited, Forbidden land or access, even in the heart of our Wilderness, in designated WHA no less!!

(What a mad mad Mad! world )

I doubt there would be as much need to question traditional beliefs if they could be measured in some way more familiar to non-traditional 'owners' or more relevant to the beliefs or values their ancestors brought with them.

[geoskid]

I doubt there would be as much need to question traditional beliefs if they could be measured in some way more familiar to non-traditional 'owners' or more relevant to the beliefs or values their ancestors brought with them.

I'm intrigued Nuts. I know your a science man. You use the word measure, that means something. I have no problem with storytelling, but lots of people take the storys literally, that causes problems. I really don't know why this conversation still happens ( well I do but that's another thread, unfortunately).
You havn't gone over to the dark side where measure means whatever one feels it means , have you?
And please don't wheel out the false backyard analogy favoured by some that should know better. What have you [i]really [/I ]got. I wont use smileys because your my mate. Spell it out and hold the damn poetry.
You seem to be advocating some sort of relativistic 'true'. I know it might be blunt, but what is wrong with calling thing as they are, and individual minds have to cope with the dissonance. Therein lies progress, bugger the infantile tears.

[Nuts]

As you know, white as we come, aboriginal culture has always interested me. I have been involved in some studies, in my case the science of aboriginal material culture. Aboriginal people had a wonderfully functional, ingenious array of implements, limited to a western eye but functional and complete. All they needed! I guess I was most impressed! since come around to realising the privilege of that connection.

They had no need for ownership, especially not as a driving measure of success. So I'd agree, we can hardly use simple analogies to understand connection to the country. We evolved a set of values no doubt also mostly necessary for crowded living, but completely at odds with those of traditional people and ingrained well before our invasion.

They had their history irreparably written into at our command. While white Australian history has been relatively rich and prosperous, this entire nation has been forced to comply as best they can. I suspect most here would be tempered when it came to actually ignoring cultural requests rather than just typing, ignorance seems a crowning defeat. We all loose out.

Last edited by Nuts on Mon 02 Feb, 2015 9:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

[Nuts]

I feel for the aboriginal people for the destruction we brought them but if us anglos didn't walk on any ground sacred to them we would still be on a ship at Pt Jackson.

Or we'd all be speaking Tahitian
Probably talking about 'areas' well documented, evidenced, probably with parks or reserves? (ie. fair enough..)

[neil_fahey]

That's the thing though, nobody is asking us to stop walking on "any ground that's sacred to them". I'm betting if you counted all the places of significance we're asked not to walk on by the Aboriginal people, they would be far outnumbered by the churches/mosques/synagogues in this country.

[tom_brennan]

Uluru is expected to be closed to climbing:
http://www.smh.com.au/national/uluru-ve ... zccjo.html

[photohiker]

Uluru is expected to be closed to climbing:
http://www.smh.com.au/national/uluru-ve ... zccjo.html

About time.

Having walked up the rock 20+ years ago without any knowledge of the preference from the Aboriginal people, I enjoyed the climb. On the way down, I saw the memories left by friends and family members who fell and died on the rock. There are many reasons the climb should stop, but the main reason is the wish of the Anangu people.

This year, we visited the rock again. This time, I did not think of walking up the rock because of the information available online and at the actual entry to the climb. Instead, I walked around the rock and found better views and information than I ever climbed it previously.

[Mark F]

Do you obey keep off the grass signs? I feel they have far less validity than the ancestral beliefs of our indigenous peoples. Western civilisation does not associate religious beliefs with natural places but rather in buildings and (often fake) relics. Would you accept people smoking in your house, or talking loudly and profanely in a church or the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier? Not really any different to climbing Uluru against the wishes of the traditional owners.