snake bite

[corvus]

'tis a shame your walking partner was not quick enough to get a photo of it! But I guess nobody is that quick.

I thought this was a family forum so I think a snapshot of cherryw pooing his pants would not be appropriate

[walkinTas]

Whats even more interesting is that I stepped over a similar sized black snake on Mt Rufus on November 18th. Oh no, its climate change!

Been talking to a Herpetologist and he said"tigers dont attack ever" and that "they are very slow growing and a 30 cm specimen is last years birth" this sounds logical

Corvus, this theory makes a lot more sense.

[kantonysen]

Some mates and I went into the Blue Peaks Lakes yesterday. We put our packs down while having a cast and one of our group went back to his pack later to find a foot of tiger snake tail visible under his pack. He must be a snake attractor or something as he had another tiger snake swim near him not long after. Later when walking out he saw a very small tiger snake near where I had seen one about three weeks ago. Take care if you leave your pack in a sunny area.
Keith

[ben.h]

Saw 4 tiger snakes yesterday.
In order of sightings: one on a lower part of the Cathedral Rock track (Betts Rd end), one on the Wellington Falls track, one on the Pipeline "Siphon" track (in a perfectly circular coil with its head resting on top in the middle ... I wish I had time to photograph this one) and one in North West Bay River (sunbaking on a rock in the dry river bed, again not far from Betts Rd).

Two of the four were too fast for me to get a photo of, however, I managed to snap the other two.

Tiger Snake: Around 200m before the first switchback on the Cathedral Rock track.

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Tiger Snake: Around 1.5km up-river from the bridge at the end of Betts Road. This snake was getting quite irate with me trying to get a close photo of him/her (lifted its head high then flattened its head right out and made a bit of a loud exhaling sort of sound). It finally ducked for cover just as I was about to get a good photo but was obviously angry enough to poke its head out again and tell me to go away and this is the shot I eventually got.

n562932293_1094692_5495.jpg (105.34 KiB) Viewed 102515 times

edit: removed photos from the post to comply with the 200k per person per topic limit

Attachments

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Last edited by ben.h on Sun 22 Mar, 2009 7:10 pm, edited 5 times in total.

[corvus]

Hey! this confirms my "bark" theory except yours did not sit up to do it,my Herpetologist contact (not local) advised that a 2m Tiger would be at least 5 years old which in my opinion is fantastic.Pity I am such a Wuss when I come across this magnificant creature ,despite regular meetings I still almost cark myself.
It must be a Northern Hemisphere thing and I would like to overcome it if possible ,I believe our local NW snake man is available for a small cost to do the demonstration thing so if anyone is interested I am willing to organise a infomation night in Devonport.
PM me if interested

Last edited by corvus on Sat 02 Feb, 2008 11:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[Speculator]

Hey! this confirms my "bark" theory except yours did not sit up to do it,my Herpatologist contact (not local) advised that a 2m Tiger would be at least 5 years old which in my opinion is fantastic.Pity I am such a Wuss when I come across this magnificant creature ,despite regular meetings I still almost cark myself.
It must be a Northern Hemisphere thing and I would like to overcome it if possible ,I believe our local NW snake man is available for a small cost to do the demonstration thing so if anyone is interested I am willing to organise a infomation night in Devonport.
PM me if interested

I'd be bang up for that, I'm a bit of a snake pansy myself too!

[corvus]

specs speak to your bilaw and we will do thissss thing if we can get enough punters to pay the man .

[corvus]

ben.h Magic picts of notatchis scutatis only wish I had your go??ds to get that up close and personal .
I will overcome my shivers down the backbone perhaps one day but you are obviously comfortable with ourTigers and hats off to you for that ,I am trying to get an info night on Snakes together so if you have anymore up and close pics please post here and you can
scare us some more

Last edited by corvus on Thu 06 Mar, 2008 7:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[walkinTas]

Two of the four were too fast for me to get a photo of, however, I managed to snap the other two.

Great shots ben. I've been really annoyed with every snake I've seen this summer, none of them wanted to pose for a photograph.
I saw an especially large Whip Snake on the board walk at Mt. Rufus. I would have loved a photo, but he/she just wasn't into it. I'm envious.

Last edited by walkinTas on Sun 27 Jan, 2008 11:19 pm, edited 6 times in total.

[corvus]

wT in my opinion you would need a really fast camera as the the whippies that have gone over my boots were candidates for the one min mile but what magnificent creatures and they dont scare me .

[tasadam]

...This snake was getting quite irate with me trying to get a close photo of him/her (lifted its head high then flattened its head right out and made a bit of a loud exhaling sort of sound)...

Isn't that what they do when they are getting ready to strike?
Too close for me I'm afraid... I'd definitely be giving them a wider berth.
frank_in_oz posted on his blog a video of a large-ish tiger snake striking - a frog, but check out the agility and speed if they do decide to strike!
http://frankinoz.blogspot.com/2007/11/t ... ation.html

Corvus PM sent re the offer.

[tasadam]

Saw 4 tiger snakes yesterday.... one on the Pipeline "Siphon" track (in a perfectly circular coil with its head resting on top in the middle ... (I wish I had time to photograph this one)

You mean like this?
http://www.greenart.com.au/10x15/pages/ ... 110BF9.htm

Found at http://www.greenart.com.au/catalogue.htm

[ben.h]

Saw 4 tiger snakes yesterday.... one on the Pipeline "Siphon" track (in a perfectly circular coil with its head resting on top in the middle ... (I wish I had time to photograph this one)

You mean like this?
http://www.greenart.com.au/10x15/pages/ ... 110BF9.htm

Found at http://www.greenart.com.au/catalogue.htm

Cool photo ... about to strike!

The tiger I saw was sleeping (or whatever they do before bush walkers disturb them!) and wrapped in a tight, flat circular coil ... like a hot-plate on the top of a stove?? or some such thing Put it this way, I've never seen such a perfectly coiled snake and thats why I'm disappointed I didn't get a photo.

This is about as close as I could find (but not black and beautiful like a tiger snake!)
http://digital-desert.com/wildlife/snak ... nake-2.jpg

[ben.h]

ben.h Magic picts of notatchis scutatis only wish I had your go??ds to get that up close and personal .
I will overcome my shivers down the backbone perhaps one day but you are obviously comfortable with out Tigers and hats off to you for that ,I am trying to get an info night on Snakes together so if you have anymore up and close pics please post here and you can
scare us some more

Unfortunately I don't have any other photos (never fast enough!). I suppose I was very lucky this day and managed to even get one let alone two snakes to say cheese

[corvus]

Finally caught up with the Snake Man and he is willing to do a demo for a small group only drawback is that his normal charge for after hours is around $150.00 (negotiable)which unless we can involve another group is just a bit expensive for the few of us who expressed interest .I will chuck out some feelers to some others and we may still be able to do this .
Then I will chase up a venue and see if we can get something for free or at little cost.

[Bush Walker]

Just completed a St John Senior First Aid course and became aware that the treatment of snake bite has changed since I last did the course about 3 years ago.

The St John course refresher is now available online http://e-firstaid.stjohn.org.au/

and the topic on snakebite http://e-firstaid.stjohn.org.au/high/topic_17/index.html

The differences that I noticed were the requirements that you start from fingers or toes and bandage up towards the trunk, using a firm heavy crepe or elasticised roller bandage, over the top of a broad pressure bandage (crepe bandage preferred) which has been applied over the bite site.

NB the direction of application and nature of bandage has changed.

More info:

St John http://www.stjohn.org.au/images/stjohn/information/FS_snake_bite.pdf
CSL http://www.csl.com.au/docs/422/417/0910%20CSL%20IH%20First%20Aid%20Flyer%20-%20A4%20Compressed,0.pdf

Purchase special snake bandage (10cm wide and extra long) from St John

[cams]

Most common snakes I've come across up here are red-bellied blacks and small olive coloured ones (not sure what they are). My best story so far is from when we did Lost World at Lamington. There was 4 of us in the group. I was 3rd. We were walking along a narrow razorback. First two walkers were about 20m in front of me and the other walker. It wasn't until I had just walked over it that the last person saw a coiled up death adder dead in the middle of the track just behind me. Luckily it was either very much asleep or dead because it didn't move. There was a leaf covering it's head so couldn't tell. Maybe one of the first two stepped on its head. Unfortunate for the snake, probably lucky for them.

Anyway, we didn't hang around to find out if it was going to wake up. Don't really want to come across too many more of them judging by its M.O. It was so extremely well camoflaged in the dirt and dry grass that we're lucky we saw it at all.

[Lindsay]

Just completed a St John Senior First Aid course and became aware that the treatment of snake bite has changed since I last did the course about 3 years ago.

The St John course refresher is now available online http://e-firstaid.stjohn.org.au/

and the topic on snakebite http://e-firstaid.stjohn.org.au/high/topic_17/index.html

The differences that I noticed were the requirements that you start from fingers or toes and bandage up towards the trunk, using a firm heavy crepe or elasticised roller bandage, over the top of a broad pressure bandage (crepe bandage preferred) which has been applied over the bite site.

NB the direction of application and nature of bandage has changed.

More info:

St John http://www.stjohn.org.au/images/stjohn/information/FS_snake_bite.pdf
CSL http://www.csl.com.au/docs/422/417/0910%20CSL%20IH%20First%20Aid%20Flyer%20-%20A4%20Compressed,0.pdf

Purchase special snake bandage (10cm wide and extra long) from St John

I have also just completed a St Johns course as a work requirement and noticed the slight change in first aid for snake bite. Call me a cynic but I couldn't help wondering about a possible relationship between the changed procedure and the appearance of 'special' bandages for sale by St Johns...

[Kevin]

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Last edited by Kevin on Fri 24 Dec, 2010 7:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

[Bush Walker]

Did they (St John) explain why the bandaging is in that particular direction, also, I would have thought elasticised bandages would be preferred over crepe bandages (slippage?). The other niggling thing is when a person applies the pressure immobilisation bandage, plus another bandage, they cover the bite site. Later they are transported to hospital by other means and with other people. How does the hospital find the site for venom residue (if available) without releasing the pressure. Would seem abit pointless and risky. I understand that the snake identification kit uses venom from the bite site or the bandage covering it. Their video only showed bandaging, which prompted me to ask.

Cheers,

KC

Hi Kevin

I was only a participant in the course, you will need to ask an expert to explain the logic for the changes. Both the lymphatic system and veins have internal valves which prevent the fluid pooling in the extremities and the direction of bandaging takes these internal valves into account. The first bandage is small and very localised and I assume therefore not difficult to find the venom. I was told that the recommended bandage I bought from St John only three years ago was no longer considered suitable and that I should buy a new " snake bite" bandage. Sorry but I can't give you any more detail.

Bushwalker

[Kevin]

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Last edited by Kevin on Fri 24 Dec, 2010 7:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

[Bush Walker]

Thanks for the compliment about my blog Kevin. Hope you find it useful.

Re snakebite biology

I have done some more research which I may report when I have something conclusive, but there seems to be some inconsistency between the authors and you need to be especially careful with anything more than about a year old. Many websites don't quote the source/authority for the advice they give and even worse don't give a publication date which makes it very difficult to decide the currency of their advice. Let us all know if you find something authoritative, Kevin. The joys of web research!

When I asked for a reason for bandaging upwards towards the body, which is counter-intuitive, I was told that going away would cause the valves in the veins to close under the pressure and prevent blood flowing back to the heart. Intuitively, I thought thats what you want, but I think its to do with the lymphatic system not the veins carrying the venom away from the bite. You don't want to kill a limb due to lack of oxygen. However I thought the valves in the lymphatic system worked the same way as those in the veins, so bandaging towards the body would push any venom nearby towards the heart!!!

[Lindsay]

Here is a quote from the latest St Johns first aid book re. snakebite.

"Research has shown that the spread of snake venom depends on its absorption through the lymphatic system. If the casualty remains at rest and a very firm pressure immobilisation bandage and splint are applied rapidly (within one or two minutes) very little venom reaches the circulation, even after several hours."

So the object is to shut off the lymphatic system rather than circulation.

[Bush Walker]

Bandaging towards the body from the extremities as recommended should push the lymph carrying the venom towards the body. Explain the logic of that?

[isoma]

Bush_walker,

they cover the bite site. Later they are transported to hospital by other means and with other people. How does the hospital find the site for venom residue (if available) without releasing the pressure

Asking the patient helps. Marking over the bite site with a big x is useful too. Failing that, the bite site is usually identified as being the area with the chunkier bandaging.

When the spot is identified, the whole compression bandage isnt usually removed. A 'window' is simply cut out.

Bandaging towards the body from the extremities as recommended should push the lymph carrying the venom towards the body. Explain the logic of that?

Hopefully the compression bandage is applied before the venom even gets into the lymph vessels, but even so, I dont think the venom would get pushed very far forward before being covered/compressed by the next wrap or 2.

I believe the main reason for the change is patient comfort. If you wrap from proximal to distal you get venous congestion which can get painful.


I have no references/evidence for any of the above statements

[Bush Walker]

Asking the patient helps. Marking over the bite site with a big x is useful too. Failing that, the bite site is usually identified as being the area with the chunkier bandaging.
When the spot is identified, the whole compression bandage isnt usually removed. A 'window' is simply cut out.

Bandaging towards the body from the extremities as recommended should push the lymph carrying the venom towards the body. Explain the logic of that?

Hopefully the compression bandage is applied before the venom even gets into the lymph vessels, but even so, I dont think the venom would get pushed very far forward before being covered/compressed by the next wrap or 2.I believe the main reason for the change is patient comfort. If you wrap from proximal to distal you get venous congestion which can get painful.
I have no references/evidence for any of the above statements

Thanks isoma. You HAVE explain what seemed counter intuitive to me.

[ozjolly]

This is topical: http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/warning-after-wa-snakebite-death-20101201-18gjj.html

So don't be too worried about snakes on your next walk... be more worried about what's under your desk as you post to bushwalk.com!

[Kevin]

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Last edited by Kevin on Fri 24 Dec, 2010 7:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

[Bush Walker]

Found a pretty good site that talks about the medical management of snakes, http://www.anaes.med.usyd.edu.au/venom/snakebite.html

In a hospital environment patients are classified as "Critically ill", "Less seriously ill" or "If systematic symptoms occur". Note that a hole is cut above the bite site in order to take a swab with the snake identification kit. This ensures the correct antivenom is administered. If a person is treated under current first aid procedures, there is only a requirement to apply a pressure immobilisation bandage. The location of the bite site is critical for hospitals to take a swab, especially for "Critically Ill" patients who cannot speak for themselves has they may be getting ventilated. What I like about this site (above) is that they describe their field procedure as firstly applying a pad over the bite site followed by the snake immobilisation bandage. It would become obvious at the Hospital end where the bite site is! I'll be following this procedure in future.

Releasing the bandages too early or searching through bandaging for bite sites can have severe consequences. Administering the wrong antivenom through guesswork is also a bad idea.

Thanks Kevin . That advice looks to be pretty definitive and makes sense, which is even better

[Kevin]

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Last edited by Kevin on Fri 24 Dec, 2010 7:36 am, edited 1 time in total.