Tarkine

[stepbystep]

Kinda interesting how the government treats different types of businesses, 15 years later Tarkine Trails still operates despite beating it's head against a wall, Shree, gone after 15 months...

http://www.themercury.com.au/news/opini ... 7219002719

[geoskid]

Some really interesting stuff happening in the Tarkine soon. If there's anyone in the creative industries, musicians, photographers, video peeps, artists interested in contributing to a good conservation outcome feel free to PM me. Particularly interested in people from the NW.

G'day Sbs,
I don't understand the reason for the continued allusion to things potentially happening with regards to " the tarkine", WHA etc, by a mystery group. Is this approach a considered strategy by the group you are in? Does anyone within the group question this strategy? I think there is a possibility that when the veil is lifted, the perceived arrogance of the strategy will be detrimental to the message, regardless of it's merits.
Upfront is surely the best way?

Haha...not at all, and it's not for me to comment on how the broader Tarkine campaign will be run, I'm not running it, but it will be a long one.

The WHA campaign is up and running, no allusion...

http://globalvoices.good.do/save-tasman ... ment-plan/
http://www.bobbrown.org.au/save_tasmani ... s?splash=1

Tarkine campaign will be launched soon, my message here is about a project I am running, and unless your interest is piqued to become involved as an artist I'm not interested in revealing more just yet. All will become evident in good time grasshopper

Thanks for your reply.
What I mean is that in a few of your posts on this forum, you allude to a group, variously described (meritoriously, naturally), and inferred by me as a clandestine group. Is my inference incorrect?
My interest is piqued because i'm a nosey parker.
I have concerns that I will not get unbiased views from the sites you linked- do you know where I/anyone else can get unbiased views regarding the issues at hand.
(Your efforts after all are about convincing people to adopt a course of action).
I admire your passion. I guess my point is, be careful that the message comes across as you would want it to, grasshopper
Edit: I know my messages don't come across as I would want them to. But then, I'm not an activist.

[geoskid]

Sbs, a little positive feedback. I perceive a more pragmatic approach from you on these issues ( in the last year or so), and in my not so humble opinion, that's the best approach.
Cheers, over.

[stepbystep]

Sbs, a little positive feedback. I perceive a more pragmatic approach from you on these issues ( in the last year or so), and in my not so humble opinion, that's the best approach.
Cheers, over.

I've always been an advocate for the pragmatic outcome. Inclusive and forward thinking(20-100years) History shows that what some deem the 'dark green' is in fact the far more realistic should they delve a little deeper. But at the end of the day I'll start from a place of idealism and work towards compromise with the powers that be. It's difficult ground to navigate, but I'll stand firm where I think it's appropriate.

In regards to some of my more wishy-washy statements about the conservation movements possible actions, it's simply complex The ground keeps shifting. I involve myself with many groups to try and figure out who is who, where they are coming from and what their agenda is. It's complex. One thing I can tell you for sure, the 'movement' is full of some very good people, that care and for the most part understand the issues very well. That I cannot say for the other world I inhabit, that of media, politics and spin.

I've been saying for a long time I advocate positive outcomes. I knew what would happen with the Shree mine, any iron ore venture in Tas for that matter, it's obvious. A positive outcome for the 'provence of tin' in the Tarkine is protection, mining it will f*ck up something utterly unique on a global scale, those that swallow the 3 to 20 year deliverables from that place don't give a *&%$#! about the planet our grandchildren will inhabit. That stuff is non-negotiable at the end of the day for me.

I don't believe anyone is unbiased in this area, it is what it is. Some try harder than other to find middle ground is all.

Anyhoosit....go visit the Tarkine, it's freakin' awesome

[Buddy]

Depends where you are standing when you call the tune. At 20 and 30 I would think nothing of lugging 25kg. in a winter pack around the ranges to enthrall and reinvigorate myself. Now, I still love to be there but my body is less agile. I use a different means of getting close to beautiful places sometimes, a 4WD, am I to be condemned for this? It is easy to cast stones at a group from high ground but are we all so perfect? I think not. Go to the Anne Plateau and find a turd under every rock. Why not have a clean up day up there bloke? 4WDers often do clean-ups in the bush, we just don't bleat about it. There are miscreants everywhere, in every group. Back in the day, airdrop containers were always left where they fell. Axes and guns were standard kit on expeditions, but times change, we grow older and hopefully we learn. I don't condemn anyone for the means they use to visit the bush, just do it respectfully. The APCA is not World Heritage and not National Park, so possesses a different standard of protection that permits multiple use, like the Central Plateau Conservation Area, Adamsfield Conservation Area and Snug Tiers. Unless you expect everybody to toss their backpacks in the Vinnies bin when the body starts to tire, we need to be a little more inclusive. And don't start me on how precious it is to be pissed off when a helicopter flies overhead as you soak up the solitude. Harden up.

[stepbystep]

G'day Buddy,

You and I will probably never agree on the south of Sandy Cape to Pieman Heads issue so probably no point butting heads.

I make this point. There is nowhere north of Strahan that is not the domain of 4WD-ers or private property. Nowhere. I'd propose embracing the 4WD community and helping them out with their vast network of tracks on the west coast, but they would need to give up a section of coast to a different type of user group. The 4WD=ers have blown it through their own actions. Also this section of coast has national heritage listing, yet we are to advocate the behavior that goes on there? Really?

I agree that walking clubs should do more in terms of education and working bees. I also wouldn't be worried about seeing Rhona shut for a season or 3 if PWS can't get the funding to get a sputnik in there. There are questions over PWS advocating Shelf Camp and not providing a facility, that's a debate that should happen, but this is a Tarkine thread. Also that same senior club member that tears up middens and delicate areas around the Pedder River and beyond also takes part in rehab works. Astounding hypocrisy!

Much as, as you get older and you can't lug a pack up mountains to see that view, as you go through life you must accept realities and embrace change.

[photohiker]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-02-17/l ... ls/6127970

Legal action over Tarkine mine leases granted to Venture Minerals

Conservationists have begun legal action over mining leases granted in Tasmania's Tarkine region by the state's Resources Minister.

Save the Tarkine has filed an application in the Supreme Court calling on Paul Harriss to provide a statement of reasons for granting Venture Minerals leases for Mount Livingston and Mount Lindsay.

Scott Jordan from Save the Tarkine said the group had decided to take the matter to court after three requests for information went unanswered.

"A statement of reasons [is what] the Minister's required to provide to us under the Judicial Review Act and the Minister has refused on three of those occasions," Mr Jordan said.

"So he's left us with no option but to go to court to seek a statement of reasons as to why the mine leases for Venture Minerals at Mount Livingston and Mount Lindsay have been granted."

Last August, Venture Minerals suspended its Riley Creek iron ore project blaming legal action by Save the Tarkine and low prices.

The Riley Creek mine had planned to use the mine to help finance the much larger Mount Lindsay project.

[Hallu]

Kinda interesting how the government treats different types of businesses, 15 years later Tarkine Trails still operates despite beating it's head against a wall, Shree, gone after 15 months...

http://www.themercury.com.au/news/opini ... 7219002719

"Fast forward to today and the situation is incredibly different. Thousands of people, nationally and internationally, have heard of the Tarkine and have generated a desire to visit the largest cool temperate rainforest in southern Tasmania."

"Southern" Tasmania ? Maybe they meant Southern Hemisphere ?

[Nuts]

Pretty cool but shouldn't it just be 'temperate rainforest'.. or is there 'warm' temperate forest as well .. just a question.. but isn't Chile's bigger?

Lol.. I know, we all know this.. right? If not, never cared?

'Contiguous', is that the key?
Anyhow.. warm And cool temperate? coastal temperate? If 'contiguous' is the key perhaps it can be said these are the largest remaining tracts of temperate rainforest, many of the warmer climes harvested (or at least rendered 'non-contiguous' or by comparison relatively 'non-pristine'..) long ago. Maybe such a broad term would diminish their uniqueness, 'cool' temperate being somewhat more special.. obscure term but useful.
(it's ok- carry on..)

[Nuts]

Some insight (for those who may have missed it) on 4wd access from Geoff Coles, former nw parks regional manager :
http://www.themercury.com.au/news/opini ... 7180084370

[Buddy]

"In 2012 he was awarded a Public Service Medal for outstanding service to the community in managing Parks and Wildlife Service reserves in Tasmania" Now I'm confused, So, he was awarded a PSM for not getting on top of the "issues" over a 16 year period. Then takes his leave and tries to blame everybody else. Is that the way it works lol?

[photohiker]

"In 2012 he was awarded a Public Service Medal for outstanding service to the community in managing Parks and Wildlife Service reserves in Tasmania" Now I'm confused, So, he was awarded a PSM for not getting on top of the "issues" over a 16 year period. Then takes his leave and tries to blame everybody else. Is that the way it works lol?

Only if you ignore the constraints placed on him.

As a public servant, he has to do his best with the limited resources at his disposal whilst his hands are tied behind his back and his mouth taped shut. You can be sure he well and truly earned that medal.

[Buddy]

Have had dealings with other Parks personnel-some at the highest level, who manage to find ways to get their agenda up, despite the constraints placed on them This from the Ministry down! Thus I am not sure your argument holds water.

[photohiker]

Do you have any evidence he didn't manage the parks and wildlife reserves in an exemplary fashion to earn the medal?

What he is talking about now is not whether he was doing the role assigned to him, he is talking about the issues facing the area due to minority public pressure and dumb politics. Neither of which he could do much about during his tenure due to public service rules. He had to leave to make a public statement.

[geoskid]

Some insight (for those who may have missed it) on 4wd access from Geoff Coles, former nw parks regional manager :
http://www.themercury.com.au/news/opini ... 7180084370

Thanks nuts, read it. I put him in a category at 'genocide of a culture'. He needs to try harder if he wants to be a spokesperson that the middle majority will take seriously.

[geoskid]

Yes, and a midden is a rubbish dump, very important to know where they are to piece together history. But then what?

[stepbystep]

A midden is NOT a rubbish dump it is part of a complex cultural landscape.

This midden is at the front door of a hut depression, in close proximity to many other hut depressions, wow, we might call that a village. That's bush tucker and medicine at the backdoor of the hut. Not 50 metres from here are a series of seal hides used for hunting. The entire area around shows evidence of landscape management. Tall tea tree forests, protected from burning regimes as a resource for hut and canoe building, spear making. Kelp harvesting from the shoreline for making water carrying tools(buckets). Reeds for basket weaving, shells for jewellery making, the grassy plains for hunting and easy travel all intricately managed by cold fire burns to prevent hot wild fires. On, and on it goes....

The entire Tarkine coastal strip is a cultural landscape of epic proportions. Or are our neighborhoods just dumps? The 'I' word is so very close to being typed....

Attachments

[photohiker]

Thanks SBS, you said it far more eloquently than I would have.

In modern society, we have rubbish dumps, but around where we live we have historical evidence of ours' and previous occupants' lives. That's exactly what a midden contains.

[geoskid]

What is the 'l ' word sbs. Type it.
Yes, when we move out of our neighbourhoods and no longer use them, rubbish is left.
To reiterate, these artifacts can tell us a lot about history, but what do you do with them longterm. It's clearly absurd if one thinks about the implications, say, in 1000 years. What about current culture?
Cultural landscape? Record history, and let those currently alive live. Protect what really is unique.

[stepbystep]

Ignoramus!

The pyramids, Stonhenge, Angkor Wat, MuniRaj, The Coloseum, Chichen Itza, Machu Pichu, Westminster Abbey for *&^%$# sake... they are all old and useless, only difference is The Tarkine is a perfectly managed cultural landscape intertwined with a natural landscape. Utterly unique on a global scale.

I'm not too proud to say I was ignorant to all this just a few years ago, but I'm learning, and continue to do so. We have an extraordinary treasure, right here. Learn, or remain stubborn and ignorant. Hell it's fun to rip that stuff up with a quad bike innit?

[geoskid]

In all of those examples peoples actually built something on purpose. Throwing things out the front door for many years is not really comparable, is it.
And you did'nt answer my question. That is the key to not remaining an ignoramus.

[stepbystep]

In all of those examples peoples actually built something on purpose. Throwing things out the front door for many years is not really comparable, is it.
And you did'nt answer my question. That is the key to not remaining an ignoramus.

The landscape was managed and 'built' on purpose. This is what you fail to grasp. An ENTIRE landscape, not just a single building of stone. Equilibrium. Remarkable, unique, worth protecting and learning from. In a modern context.

How do you think those tea tree stands, uniformly distributed along the coast were protected? How do you think those traveling routes were kept open? Just ask an off track walker how the rewilding of the landscape has affected traveling through using those same pathways without 200+ years of management. Look at how eucalyptus seedstock has overtaken the grasslands in that time. There is much to learn about how to manage this cultural landscape if eyes and minds are opened.

The debate is useless when one side is blind. Happy reading geoskid.

[icefest]

I thought your questions were largely rhetoic, but I'll try to answer them.

What is the 'l ' word sbs. Type it.
Yes, when we move out of our neighbourhoods and no longer use them, rubbish is left.
To reiterate, these artifacts can tell us a lot about history, but what do you do with them longterm. It's clearly absurd if one thinks about the implications, say, in 1000 years.Why is it absurd to attempt to keep it for 1000 years? I don't think it is that clear, or there wouldn't be such a a discussion about it. What about current culture?If some parts of current culture are unique (and have the potential for much future research about these cultures) then It is no different.
Cultural landscape? Record history, and let those currently alive live.By all means record history, but what if history has not been yet fully recorded? Is there an obligation to preserve sites that can be further examined in the future if we have not yet exhausted their knowledge? Protect what really is unique.Does that mean that this isn't actually unique? Personally I suspect the ball is in your court to describe another location where this modified ecosystem exists like this? most others have been destroyed ( N America, Siberia, Africa). Hunter-gatherer anthropological evidence is incredibly hard to gather, why destroy this trove of evidence?

[geoskid]

The landscape was managed and 'built' on purpose. This is what you fail to grasp. An ENTIRE landscape, not just a single building of stone. Equilibrium. Remarkable, unique, worth protecting and learning from. In a modern context.

The debate is useless when one side is blind. Happy reading geoskid.

So , what are you advocating sbs.? Keeping an entire landscape as it was used by people, even though people no longer use it that way.
I'm not blind, I just dont swallow narratives blindly.
look up what a midden is- it is by definition a rubbish dump. Once studied, what is the point in keeping it?
I can understand keeping some as samples, and even recreating interpretive scenes.

[north-north-west]

look up what a midden is- it is by definition a rubbish dump. Once studied, what is the point in keeping it?

Ummmm, because it's an integral part of a whole? Like a tree is part of a forest, and it's the forest that truly matters not the individual tree.

[Nuts]

Avoiding political correctness, not assigning 'care factor' like it was some exclusive/elusive 'right', no go-to name calling (on here).. through all that.. seems like a reasonable question to me? (and iv'e heard our dark brothers call them tips, let's not get precious..). Compromise is not 'cool' but that is what will be needed and has been needed. The talking point was about ignoring regulation, an issue between the offenders and authorities, not likely forum members here, nobody to blame here?

No comment on Geoff but, even if over-funded, for those on the ground, it's not hard to imagine law enforcement on the west coast as a relatively desirable, long-term Tas parks posting.

[Clusterpod]

Its unique, irreplaceable cultural and ecological heritage that is being destroyed for a few cheap thrills and no. other. reason. Thousands of years of accumulated evidence for stable, prosperous and abundant lifestyles. Evidence that exists no where else.

There is nothing you can do on a quad or 4WD there that you can't do in hundreds of other places on the island, that have already been damaged, degraded or destroyed. Is that it? Is it the thrill of breaking the "locked up" nature and breaking something the "greenies" and "luvvies" want to protect?

The real tragedy is, these people can come up with irrefutable, seemingly unarguable justifications to protect and study these amazing places, yet its all for naught as some tool in a 4WD can pull broggies through the middle with impunity.

And yet look overseas. The world is outraged as ISIS destroys priceless, ancient items of cultural heritage in Iraq.

And we bomb THOSE people and call them terrorists.

[flyfisher]

[quote="Clusterpod"]
And yet look overseas. The world is outraged as ISIS destroys priceless, ancient items of cultural heritage in Iraq.
And we bomb THOSE people and call them terrorists.

Those people are killing and wounding many people, its hardly comparable, just emotive comments without substance.
If you were to talk to the people in 4w drives, you would find many hold similar values to your own,regarding care of the environment.
Surely it would not have been hard to apprehend d*$#@heads breaking rules and fine them and/or empound vehicles.
It's hard to believe that Parks were not able to properly manage the area with signs, fencing etc. It's almost as though they wanted a midden or two run over so they could cry foul.

FF

[north-north-west]

If you were to talk to the people in 4w drives, you would find many hold similar values to your own,regarding care of the environment.
Surely it would not have been hard to apprehend d*$#@heads breaking rules and fine them and/or empound vehicles.
It's hard to believe that Parks were not able to properly manage the area with signs, fencing etc. It's almost as though they wanted a midden or two run over so they could cry foul.

You cannot stop people who are determined to do what they want to do.

I'm not going to comment on how many or what percentage of 'baddies' there are out there in the 4WD/ATV community, but they exist just the same as the right-minded ones do. I've seen enough of it on the mainland, with seasonally closed gates ripped out (yes, I have personally witnessed this, and been threatened when making note of the rego plate); fences driven over or torn down; both gates and fences bypassed; signs removed, defaced and/or ignored, etc.

How do you apprehend offenders and/or impound vehicles if there's no-one on the ground to police the rules? How can the entire at-risk area be properly patrolled with the limited budget & manpower Parks has?

Last edited by north-north-west on Wed 04 Mar, 2015 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[Clusterpod]

I'm referring to the destruction of 3000 year old artifacts in Mosul as a comparison to the destruction of x-thousand year old artifacts in Tasmania.

"emotive comments without substance"? Hogwash.