Missing Victorian hiker possibly killed

[north-north-west]

The sheer illogicality of this whole argument has always had me baffled.

I don't drink alcohol. I don't smoke. I don't use any sort of recreational drugs (well, except chocolate). And I'm wowser enough to have a certain mild degree of contempt for those who do, even while understanding the emotional and mental factors that often push people into such use. But I don't think it's anyone's business but the users', as long as they ensure no-one else is negatively impacted by their behaviour - which is a caveat that applies to any and everything people do.

Prohibition doesn't work, all it does is criminalise behaviour that does not differ from that of the mainstream, except in the substance of choice.

[GPSGuided]

But I don't think it's anyone's business but the users', as long as they ensure no-one else is negatively impacted by their behaviour - which is a caveat that applies to any and everything people do.

You know that's a hard one, right?

Smokers will increase their risk to heart, lung and diseases of various organs, so will alcohol abusers, these all feeds to increased medical cost for all (in a country with universal healthcare). Then there are the bushwalkers who take risks and needing the services of SAR, which the society pays... We live in a society where every action leads to a reaction.

[Moondog55]

No that's universal sick care
universal health care would try and ensure that any damage we did to ourselves was minimal impact on others

[Empty]

You are bang on the money there GPS. It is an extremely naive viewpoint to suggest an individual can do what they like as long as it does not negatively effect others. Every decision, every choice has a flow on effect.

[north-north-west]

So you're in favour of the total prohibition of ALL non-medicinal drugs? Just to be consistent. Right?
You can't just grab that argument and say it's why we can't allow private recreational marijuana use, unless you insist on putting alcohol and nicotine in the same camp.

[Empty]

Never mentioned anything about prohibition at all. My point is that it is rather idealistic but sadly naive to think that a person can make choices about indulging in risky behaviour and not effect anyone but themselves.

My wife has familiy member and close friend both of whom started as recreational dope smokers and both of whom went on to develop a psychosis as a result. To say that their decision to smoke has not effected people around them is wrong. The ability to control whether or not they effect others has been taken from them. That is the nature of addiction.

[GPSGuided]

Managing people/society is never binary. There's always a shade of grey in there.

[neilmny]

Never mentioned anything about prohibition at all. My point is that it is rather idealistic but sadly naive to think that a person can make choices about indulging in risky behaviour and not effect anyone but themselves.

My wife has familiy member and close friend both of whom started as recreational dope smokers and both of whom went on to develop a psychosis as a result. To say that their decision to smoke has not effected people around them is wrong. The ability to control whether or not they effect others has been taken from them. That is the nature of addiction.

I have known only a couple of people in my 60 years who had a "serious" issue with dope but at the same time I have known 10 or more people who are alcoholics and hundreds who are nocotine addicts but of course they are all paying taxes so I guess that makes it ok.

Not knocking what you are saying Empty, and it's sad that your wifes friends are badly affected by dope any addiction even to paracetemol is very serious.

Some how this thread is way way off topic.........I guess I'm not helping that either.

[Empty]

I think (no, I am sure) that my point is being missed. It is not about the specifics of substance abuse or to suggest one drug is more or less harmful that another or to advocate prohibition. Rather it is to shine light on the flawed argument that a person should be left to indulge in risky behaviour, whatever that may be, as long as it has no negative effect on others. In practice I simply don't think this is possible as potentially there can always be a negative effect.

And to draw a (very) long bow, perhaps a persons choice to smoke dope creates a demand for dope that is filled by illegal growers who just happen to bump off an innocent bushwalker ( which brings it nicely back to the theme of this thread ). How many degrees of separation would that be?

[Strider]

Maybe you should try some Cannabis Moondog, I hear it has great pain relieving properties.

Dont act like you dont know mate. I have smoked marijuana with you once upon a time, I believe!

[GPSGuided]

I have known only a couple of people in my 60 years who had a "serious" issue with dope but at the same time I have known 10 or more people who are alcoholics and hundreds who are nocotine addicts but of course they are all paying taxes so I guess that makes it ok.

Because the denominators are markedly different b/n dope and alcohol/tobacco. Wait and see what happens when dope acquires the same user base.

[Moondog55]

I have known only a couple of people in my 60 years who had a "serious" issue with dope but at the same time I have known 10 or more people who are alcoholics and hundreds who are nocotine addicts but of course they are all paying taxes so I guess that makes it ok.

Because the denominators are markedly different b/n dope and alcohol/tobacco. Wait and see what happens when dope acquires the same user base.

You'll have to explain that in small words for me
I can say that amongst my friends and acquaintances more use cannabis that either/or tobacco and alcohol but that's probably because cannabis users are amongst the more highly educated and intelligent sector of the community and are more aware of the risks in the "Legal" drugs

[devoswitch]

Maybe you should try some Cannabis Moondog, I hear it has great pain relieving properties.

Dont act like you dont know mate. I have smoked marijuana with you once upon a time, I believe!

Haha mate. Shhhh

[Empty]

You'll have to explain that in small words for me
I can say that amongst my friends and acquaintances more use cannabis that either/or tobacco and alcohol but that's probably because cannabis users are amongst the more highly educated and intelligent sector of the community and are more aware of the risks in the "Legal" drugs

" You'll have to explain that in small words for me" ALONG WITH "cannabis users are amongst the most intelligent and more highly educated......"

THERE'S YOUR ANSWER FOLKS. BONG ON AUSTRALIA. (sorry should have been in lower case to make them smaller words!)

[vicrev]

Seems like everybodys on the stuff except me...........

[north-north-west]

And to draw a (very) long bow, perhaps a persons choice to smoke dope creates a demand for dope that is filled by illegal growers who just happen to bump off an innocent bushwalker ( which brings it nicely back to the theme of this thread ). How many degrees of separation would that be?

So we legalise it.
For the record, there are illegal private tobacco growers in Australia, who provide a non-controlled and non-taxed product in the same way marijuana plantations do. I have read of cases where it is suspected that people have been killed in connection with this practice. Can we now outlaw tobacco entirely?
The same thing has happened in many places in regard to private production of alcoholic drinks. Moonshine regularly kills people. Medication is used for purposes for which it was not intended and people end up dead. Petroleum products are supposed to be used to fuel engines, but there has long been an issue with the damage done by petrol-sniffing.

This whole secondary debate started off because someone said he hasn't, doesn't and wouldn't report an illegal marijuana plantation if/when found. We all make ethical choices like that. Approve or disapprove, but please don't be so *&%$#! hypocritical about it. There are far worse things in this world than a bit of dope.

[Empty]

Lucky you don't make arrows for a living. They'd all be missing the point!

[Pika]

You'll have to explain that in small words for me
I can say that amongst my friends and acquaintances more use cannabis that either/or tobacco and alcohol but that's probably because cannabis users are amongst the more highly educated and intelligent sector of the community and are more aware of the risks in the "Legal" drugs

" You'll have to explain that in small words for me" ALONG WITH "cannabis users are amongst the most intelligent and more highly educated......"

THERE'S YOUR ANSWER FOLKS. BONG ON AUSTRALIA. (sorry should have been in lower case to make them smaller words!)

[north-north-west]

Lucky you don't make arrows for a living. They'd all be missing the point!

I get the point, I just disagree with the way it's being used in this discussion.
I know there is a flow-on from every single action every single person does. Nothing occurs in a vacuum. But apply the same reasoning fairly and consistently rather than to justify one particular point.

[Moondog55]

There's no "Tongue in cheek" emoticon
The truth is we have absolutely no idea how many people in Australia are using cannabis, on a regular basis or occasionally but I had an acquaintance in Customs and another in the Federal police who acknowledged years ago that they are only intercepting a small proportion of the drugs that are grown or smuggled into the country and I think the success rate is even lower now

[GPSGuided]

Seems like everybodys on the stuff except me...........

You are not a 'true' bushwalker unless you are on the stuff! Then you'll see the bush, rainbows and sunset in even richer colours. Better than Sony dSLR.

[DanShell]

Seems like everybodys on the stuff except me...........

Or me! I make my own whiskey though

[Moondog55]

Making your own whiskey may or may not be illegal. It depends on how you interpret the law as the law does say "Distillation" and makes no mention of freeze separation. Freeze separation is actually much easier too, the hard part is getting the smoking of the sprouted barley right

[photohiker]

I think the concern with legalising dope and other drugs is that it opens the public up to marketing. We know what tobacco advertising did in terms of market and public impact. There is a section of the community who are suckers and will jump on the bandwagon, do we really need more legal recreational drugs?, the impact of the existing lot is pretty much devastating.

[Moondog55]

Personally I think it would be a good thing. The damage done by prohibition is immense, far greater than the damage done by the substances themselves.
Making a substance not illegal only removes the corruption surrounding the substance. A similar argument has been made regarding prostitution and the amount of money made by corrupt officials when that trade was illegal. Legal and licensed prostitution has been a great factor in Australias successful campaign against the spread of AIDS for instance

[DanShell]

Making your own whiskey may or may not be illegal. It depends on how you interpret the law as the law does say "Distillation" and makes no mention of freeze separation. Freeze separation is actually much easier too, the hard part is getting the smoking of the sprouted barley right

I only make non alcoholic whiskey from distilled water..... honest

[north-north-west]

I think the concern with legalising dope and other drugs is that it opens the public up to marketing. We know what tobacco advertising did in terms of market and public impact. There is a section of the community who are suckers and will jump on the bandwagon, do we really need more legal recreational drugs?, the impact of the existing lot is pretty much devastating.

We banned tobacco advertising. So you decriminalise - or even legalise and tax - other recreational drugs and maintain a ban on advertising any of them. That's not hard.

Personally I think it would be a good thing. The damage done by prohibition is immense, far greater than the damage done by the substances themselves.
Making a substance not illegal only removes the corruption surrounding the substance.

Have to agree.
In the internet age vulnerable people are already subjected to massive word-of-mouth 'promotion' of illegal recreational substances. All decriminalisation does is remove the legal penalties for possession and use. Full legalisation, with an official purity standards and taxation, will also reduce the chance of inadvertent overdose and provide some public funds to deal with health issues.

Human beings, unfortunately, like to get high. We're not going to change that. We have to find ways to minimise the damage it causes.

[Moondog55]

Making your own whiskey may or may not be illegal. It depends on how you interpret the law as the law does say "Distillation" and makes no mention of freeze separation. Freeze separation is actually much easier too, the hard part is getting the smoking of the sprouted barley right

I only make non alcoholic whiskey from distilled water..... honest

Yes but how do you do the smoking [ of the sprouted barley that is] I've always wanted to try that myself

[DanShell]

Making your own whiskey may or may not be illegal. It depends on how you interpret the law as the law does say "Distillation" and makes no mention of freeze separation. Freeze separation is actually much easier too, the hard part is getting the smoking of the sprouted barley right

I only make non alcoholic whiskey from distilled water..... honest

Yes but how do you do the smoking [ of the sprouted barley that is] I've always wanted to try that myself

I dont. There is no need. You can make very nice whiskeys without doing things like that. Its all about the quality of the alcohol and the filtering process, not so much the flavouring process. Use only the quality alcohol and understand the filtering processes and your making high end product.

Getting off topic though so I won't go on about it, it is after all just non alcoholic alcohol

[Empty]

This topic has worn me out a bit. I am going to have to unwind with a couple of cones.

Think I'll try the salted caramel followed by the french vanilla.