Cheap and light storm shelter

[Moondog55]

Exactly Franco, not a full winter sleeping bag, just the minimum bivvy gear. Survival not comfort. End being 450*300 is just enough room for my feet. If you think it needs to be longer it starts to get heavier quickly I think I did look at the Sublite for some of the ideas

[Franco]

Forgot that survival bit...
Yes for emergency with some space inside it should work...
here is a shot of a Sublite under snow :

note it is the sil version and there is nobody inside to kick the snow off it.

[simonm]

Franco - what are your thoughts on the suitability of the soft structure Tyvek in Moondogs design?

[Moondog55]

Me too Franco, although if I can find the money I'll use 100% Cuben in the lightest weight

[Franco]

"what are your thoughts on the suitability of the soft structure Tyvek in Moondogs design?"
I would not use it for that , silnylon is a lot stronger than soft tyvek
We (TT) kept the Sublite Tyvek going for a while because it does very well in hot humid weather but it wasn't meant for windy/rainy weather.

There was a discussion at BPL about Cuben and winter tents.
My take is that manufacturers know that snow sticks to Cuben and it has no give so makes the use of that laminate a bit too risky for the purpose.
(just my opinion...)
When I pointed out, in that BPL thread , that several mainstream manufacturers have used Cuben but not for the main tent structure ( in a winter tent) the point was totally ignored and maybe correctly so, but not from my point of view.

[Moondog55]

I was not aware that snow had a tendency to stick to Cuben, sort of makes the weight saving Vs strength issue pointless doesn't it?
Can Cuben be treated with spray-on Scotchguard?
Should I look at Silnylon instead and carry the extra weight?
The previous discussion on using the S2S poncho and a bivvysac as emergency shelter was responsible for thinking about this shelter option

[Franco]

Keep in mind that it was my personal opinion derived from comments and photos I have seen not from experience.

[Giddy_up]

Pretty hard to beat one of these MD. Not Cheap though.

[Moondog55]

Did snow stick to it??

[Giddy_up]

I only had a few nights of very light snow and it just slid down and accumulated around the bottom, so short answer is no. I have read on BPL that some people have found it sticky with snow and it is rougher to the touch than a silnylon. This is heavier cuben than most other tents so I am not sure if that is a factor Moondog.

[simonm]

Given what Franco said and my brief destruction test of the tyvek/cuben join I would rule out the Tyvek, just not worth the risk. As for whether the Cuben can be treated with something to make it more slippery for snow, I think 303 protectant may be worth a try. When I get home I will give it a test.

[Moondog55]

Just trying to add up in my head how heavy a shelter made with the lightest weight Cuben would be.
I am guessing it would take 4 linear meters and another 120 grams for the carbon fiber arrow shafts and the titanium pegs

[simonm]

4 linear metres of the 18g/m Cuben, with a roll width of 137cm should be around 98 grams.

[Giddy_up]

CF 8 is 0.78oz/yard. There is a lighter version again, but given this is a storm shelter I would imagine that this is as light as you would go. Add in seams with tape and some hardware such as line locks etc....your going to get something outrageously light.

[Moondog55]

CF 8 is 0.78oz/yard. There is a lighter version again, but given this is a storm shelter I would imagine that this is as light as you would go. Add in seams with tape and some hardware such as line locks etc....your going to get something outrageously light.

And also outrageously costly but perhaps the boss will think I'm worth saving?

[simonm]

The 25g/m Cuben will be about 137grams for 4 linear metres, but as giddyup said the extra weight 39 grams may be worth carrying.

[Giddy_up]

CF 8 is 0.78oz/yard. There is a lighter version again, but given this is a storm shelter I would imagine that this is as light as you would go. Add in seams with tape and some hardware such as line locks etc....your going to get something outrageously light.

And also outrageously costly but perhaps the boss will think I'm worth saving?

Your definitely worth saving!!!!!!!!!

[Moondog55]

Looks like some-one has beaten me too it.

http://www.backpackinglight.com.au/stor ... nt/dp/9445

With the Cuben at $35- a meter this is about the same cost, I wonder how strong it is

[Moondog55]

I just found out the Cuben version is 480 grams and $300 dearer at around $750-
Makes DIY worthwhile
Simon is sending me 3.5 meters of Silnylon and as a start I am going to make a basic poncho style tarp type shelter to get me started
I'm looking for ideas for a solo shelter that will work with the minimum lines of stitching and that will work using either the skis or the ski poles as support. I'm working on the assumption that I will be able to dig a shallow snow trench in winter.
I know very little about the strength characteristics of Silnylon but all of my ponchos here use the width of the fabric and just cut to length with any stress being taken on the side folds. Is a center seam stronger or weaker than the base fabric?

[icefest]

Few, if any seam will be as strong as the original fabric (unless you glue another layer to it).
The point loads of a seam tend to not spread the weight as well, leading to broken seams.

[Moondog55]

That is the main difference isn't it? Between cotton tents and silnylon, in cotton tents the seams are often the strongest part.

[Franco]

Someone just posted a photo of his UL tent under snow :

as it was with a photo that one of the Cuben tent manufacturers used to post to show how they hold up under snow, what I see here is that the material tends to hold on to it (note the steep walls) and that can't be good on top of a UL shelter (would be good if building an igloo)

[Moondog55]

Been a very long time since I first started thinking about this; the house renovations are still a work in progress and mean anything else is on hold until those are finished
But I have found a commercial build that seems to be exactly what I was considering

http://www.backcountrygear.com/ultralig ... -tent.html
Sized down a touch for solo use and in LW Silnylon and using my skis for the support it seems it would allow more safety than a bivvy sac because I could brew up even if a strong wind was blowing
This chould be made in Cuben I suppose if I can afford it

[Sandbars]

Moondog - I recently camped with someone using a Quick Tent, and it seemed troublesome to pitch, windy and floppy and generally not what you might want to stake your life on. (His description: not really quick and not really a tent).

[Moondog55]

Thanx for that Sandbars
What is going for it tho is the light weight
For solo use I usually have a real tent, I'm looking a a replacement for my poncho shelter to carry in my Winter EDC

[stry]

I have a long discontinued Integral Designs (pre RAB) SilDome that I don't need. 740g.

Google may find you some pictures.

[Sandbars]

http://www.zpacks.com/shelter/altaplex. ... plex.shtml

Clearly this is not the kind of budget that average people talk about for an emergency shelter - but is this the kind of weight / design that you were thinking about? I have a pocket tarp that I carry as a three-season emergency shelter - and it seems more resilient that I would have thought!

[Moondog55]

That link is a 404 Sandbars

[Don R]

Hi all, I am the chap with the Brooks Range Quick Tent Sandbars referred to (thanks for the notice about this conversation, J). To paraphrase Voltaire, it isn't a tent or quick. The pros are that it is tiny, with pegs it is about the size of a 1 litre Nalgene bottle and weights less than 500g. The fabric is water proof and surprisingly strong for such a light material. The cons are: it is time consuming to set up (takes about a dozen lightweight pegs to secure it), it is cramped (saying it is a two person "tent" is just an outrageous misrepresentation) with only space down its middle for a single person. The position of the pole means that a person 5' 10"" (old scale) has to sleep in the middle, especially if they are in a large sleeping bag, and the low height of the opposite end risks the bottom of the tent touching the inmate (deliberate choice of words). You can peg it down securely, at Mornington since we were in a protected location I didn't care enough to fuss over its tautness. You can sort of sit up, but leaving the tent (oops "fly") can be an exercise in contortion to avoid rubbing up against the sides. I have used this in SE Qld in the rainforest, the Victorian Alps and coast, and still carry it for the security of a light weight shelter. It survived some wind and rain on a coastal walk in May at Mornington. Last weekend I used it down in the Vic Alps, and had major condensation (despite a sizeable air gap) which is not uncommon. The exterior of my sleeping bag was soaked (to be fair there was a lot of mist about). All the photos on the websites shows the tent at a slight angle to disingenuously exaggerate its size. The only way I get enough length and height out of the tent is to use my Manfrotto tripod to stretch up the tent's bottom.I have some photos of the fly from this weekend, but uploading doesn't like the size so I will try to compress and download later.

[Moondog55]

G'Day Don
Given you experience would you say tho that the design coincides with my needs for something lightweight and wind resistant? It's a given that you get condensation in this sort of shelter but survival needs in an Alpine blow mean comfort in the least concern
Also in all likely hood it would be used in conjunction with a shallow trench and with my skis as the supports