gear list for mountain marathon, runner dead, hypothermia

[Moondog55]

adventure races make satellite tracking beacons compulsory.. they double as PLB's in emergencies..

Sort of takes away the "Adventure" part of the race tho Wayno.
My own thought is that if you can't accept the risk you shouldn't enter.
I've come close to the edge a few times, it can happen all to easily; even with the best gear and plenty of it and I accept that risk.

[wayno]

you cant do that in adventure races, theres too many people out there, they are trying to go fast and light more likely to get injured. its better to have better comms and rescue quickly where needed. plus there is a lot of publicity surrounding adventure races and as this incident has shown, events can come in for a lot of public criticism if its perceived they werent organised properly.

[photohiker]

+1 wayno.

There is a difference between a personal adventure and an organised adventure race. The organisers take a lot of responsibility even if they try their hardest to squirm out of it in the application forms.

[Moondog55]

Maybe it's time to move the thread to the discussion pages?
I seem to remember that the old Karrimor Mountain Marathons used to have a compulsory minimum pack weight and that a bivvy bag was a requirement, whether or not that would have changed the outcome I couldn't say, in the same vein we don't know that a PLB would have changed the outcome, too little information and perhaps too much conjecture?
/

[Giddy_up]

Giddy-up, I'm not disagreeing with you, but how many people are going to be at every checkpoint? In those conditions you can't really send solo or even pairs of rescuers to check the trail without putting them in harms way. In an ideal world each trail leg would have a crew patrol it, but how realistic is that? And without knowing how they are tracking people through each checkpoint, and how the checkpoints communicate, its hard to say what went wrong. I know how I would set that up, but it would involve a lot of comms gear, and people.

Yes I get all that Gadgetgeek but 3 miles apart and a man dies. In today's age it can't be to difficult to have comms between check points. Gosh 3 miles they could have used a couple of little handheld UHF radios and a pen and paper. Runner 42 just left (check) runner 73 just left (check). It's all timed so his departure should be noted somewhere!!

Does anyone know how many runners where in this event. Are we talking 300 or 50?

[Giddy_up]

This is the terrain profile of the 100 mile race




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[GPSGuided]

Fact that the check points are just 3 miles apart is evidence of the risks in that section. What's the point of check points if they don't communicate or act? UHF can be useless in the mountains.

[Giddy_up]

That section looks steep, 188 m vertical loss over a short distance.


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[wayno]

doesnt look like that big an event, entrant no's in the dozens

[Giddy_up]

doesnt look like that big an event, entrant no's in the dozens

Makes the outcome even more unpalatable!!

[Gadgetgeek]

I was thinking a few hundred, hence my previous thoughts. I've personally managed keeping track of nearly 40 crews, on three channels, with a 15 min call in rotation. And I'm kinda useless. With only a few dozen racers, each control point should be able to hand off each racer on each leg. Although that may have been part of their plan, I don't know.

But in very bad conditions its not unthinkable for someone to only make a mile an hour, but by then I'd be suspecting an injury of some sort slowing them that much.

[Supertramp]

Quote is of a removed post, edited by admin.

Isn't that just what Wayno tried to point out, that people starts to take chances once their competitive edge comes in.

The weather sounds horrendous, one could perish in those conditions with a full winter kit!!

This is where the organizers' liability comes in.

Would a PLB help the competitor? I note in the recommended gear list for the 100miles competitors, it suggested a mobile phone (with 2 areas of reduced coverage) but no PLB. Organizers use VHF radio for their official comms. All 'weighty' gears that competitors are likely to opt out.

Neither a phone, PLB, VHF radio can help a competitor when a blizzard comes in, rescuers can not always help when needed, this has been proven throughout history, not sure why people in the 21'st century still think it is guaranteed? Wake up.
Not sure where Wayno said anything of the sort? My comment had nothing to do with a competitive edge, but if you are implying some people are stupid enough to take such a risk to get a stupid little trophy for their collection, they get what they deserve. Oh and before someone whinges to the mods again (THIS IS WHAT THEY DESERVE IF THEY HAVE DISREGARDED ALL SAFETY WARNINGS OR KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT CAN GO WRONG IN SUB ZERO TEMPS). (RE-WORDED, SEE BELOW)

Last edited by Supertramp on Fri 22 Apr, 2016 9:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[Supertramp]

its better to have better comms and rescue quickly where needed.

It doesn't always work like that...
If the condition are to severe, rescuers do not risk their own lives (unlike some of the competitors) to save people that have got stuck. It is not always possible.

That is the sad truth.

[Giddy_up]

Quote is of a removed post, edited by admin.

Isn't that just what Wayno tried to point out, that people starts to take chances once their competitive edge comes in.

The weather sounds horrendous, one could perish in those conditions with a full winter kit!!

This is where the organizers' liability comes in.

Would a PLB help the competitor? I note in the recommended gear list for the 100miles competitors, it suggested a mobile phone (with 2 areas of reduced coverage) but no PLB. Organizers use VHF radio for their official comms. All 'weighty' gears that competitors are likely to opt out.

(THIS IS WHAT THEY DESERVE IF THEY HAVE DISREGARDED ALL SAFETY WARNINGS OR KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT CAN GO WRONG IN SUB ZERO TEMPS).

No one deserves to lose their life like this, it happens for sure and they are generally doing something they love which helps those left behind to find some peace but it's not deserved.

[Supertramp]

Sorry let me correct that, I miss worded it; THIS IS WHAT MAY HAPPEN IF THEY HAVE DISREGARDED ALL SAFETY WARNINGS OR KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT CAN GO WRONG IN SUB ZERO TEMPS.

Is it not selfish to disregard your safety and to not think about all those that your inadequate decision might affect?

As I have said, we don't know if the inadequate gear was to blame for this mans death, but when you decide to compete with minimal clothing in possible sub zero temps, you inherently expect your life to be on the line.

[wayno]

its better to have better comms and rescue quickly where needed.

It doesn't always work like that...
If the condition are to severe, rescuers do not risk their own lives (unlike some of the competitors) to save people that have got stuck. It is not always possible.

That is the sad truth.

better comms doesnt guarantee anything other than notifying other people of a situation faster. but if its possible to effect a rescue then one can be undertaken faster. having comms that provide an instant notification is generally better than nothing at all.

[Joomy]

https://gearjunkie.com/ultra-fiord-patagonia-tragedy-hypothermia

take a look at the gear list.
compulsory to have an insulated top. weighing at least 130gm..

First of all, we don't know what sort of clothing he had with him. That said, WT *$&# is a 130g synthetic insulated top? Lightest I've ever heard of is 160g. My wind shell is 130g! That is some ridiculous requirement. But yes, we don't know if he was carrying a Berghaus Hypertherm or a "heavy" 300g synthetic jacket (that's lighter than my lightest synthetic).

Also this obsession with survival blankets is just misinformed. They really aren't that great and relying on them is dangerous. A survival bag or bivy bag is a bit better since it reduces convective heat loss.

Patagonia is notorious for extremely bad weather..
Alan Arnette who has done the seven summits making several attempts at everest said Aconcagua was colder than anywhere else he's been and its nearly 2000m lower than everest

Aconcagua is really nowhere near Patagonia...

Maybe it's time to move the thread to the discussion pages?
I seem to remember that the old Karrimor Mountain Marathons used to have a compulsory minimum pack weight and that a bivvy bag was a requirement, whether or not that would have changed the outcome I couldn't say, in the same vein we don't know that a PLB would have changed the outcome, too little information and perhaps too much conjecture?
/

I think having an informed minimum pack weight would be a good idea actually. I'm sure a lot of racers wouldn't love the change. Wilderness races are inherently dangerous but I think requiring people to take like a decent jacket (not a 130g wind top) at least is not unreasonable. But in this specific case we don't know what caused the accident or whether any specific piece of equipment would have changed the outcome. That said, I feel like a SPOT or similar that could quickly summon help from a nearby check point would almost always be useful to someone in danger.

[wayno]

Patagonia stretches to the bottom of south america including where the race is held, bad weather is notorious further afield than patagonia